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Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by gspr on Friday June 05, 2020 @07:27AM (#23427315)
I think the two first points are more specific to Germany than to the old world as a whole. Up here in Scandinavia, we often laugh at how much Germans interact with humans, send letters and faxes, and make phonecalls in their business lives. They are woefully far behind. From what I understand the same is true for the south.

While I agree with the basic premise of the last point too I think you maybe underestimate the value of quality of life over salary for many of those people.

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by heipei on Friday June 05, 2020 @07:35AM (#23427353)
You're right, and I'm glad I started by saying that I'm German because lots of smaller European countries run circles around us in terms of tech adoption.

I don't underestimate the value of quality of life, and I don't blame anyone who knowingly works for a stable, "boring", old-school German company which has been the world-leader in its niche for the past 100 years. But I think many people here are not aware that there even is a radically different approach to building up a business (the US/VC/growth model), and that this might be the only model to create modern tech companies to rival the US players. You won't compete with AWS by creating a family-owned business over a few decades where your primary objective is to provide stable and fair employment to people, often for their entire working lives. I'm not saying either one is better, just that I think that's the reality.

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday June 05, 2020 @08:28AM (#23427710)
>family-owned business where your primary objective is to provide stable and fair employment to people, often for their entire working lives

Maybe that was the case in the '50s to '80s but I recently worked at two small family owned German companies that were leaders in their niche and their primary objective was to make their owners rich, not their employees happy(Kununu employee reviews reflected that). After that, I learned my lesson and moved to $BIG_CORP where at least I know it's all about the profits and they don't pretend to be your family as an excuse to pay you peanuts.

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by davedx on Friday June 05, 2020 @07:57AM (#23427466)
Yeah in the Netherlands here, and I’ve spent some time recently integrating a German fintech vendor. The cross of new and modern and old beurocratic way of doing things has been almost dystopian and really slowed everything down. Contrast to similar vendors in the UK is quite something.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by dukeyukey on Friday June 05, 2020 @10:02AM (#23428626)
Can you go into more details on this? I've only worked closely with UK/USA companies and I'm really interested how they compare to German/French ways of doing things. Does the Netherlands more closely align to the Uk/USA on this?
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by j4yav on Friday June 05, 2020 @12:26PM (#23430314)
In my experience the Netherlands is quite a bit like the US. Not as much VC available, but businesses tend to be pretty agile and willing to pivot to get results. All normal day to day government interaction is digital and works well. ING is a good example of a very big Dutch company that seems to do pretty well with innovation.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by davedx on Friday June 05, 2020 @12:38PM (#23430452)
Germans have a lot of legal requirements, red tape, old ways of doing things. Netherlands and UK are more streamlined, more parts of govt and daily life are digital, bank systems are more modern.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by goatinaboat on Friday June 05, 2020 @02:45PM (#23432239)
When Europe does do fintech it’s just really sleazy and exploitative, like Revolut, so better off without.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23416169

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by joelbluminator on Friday June 05, 2020 @08:26AM (#23427692)
There's a lot of criticism of the US/VC model, sure it brought tremendous success stories but it's not clear if the model actually works.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by rorykoehler on Friday June 05, 2020 @11:04AM (#23429365)
Ye I’m not a fan. All it does is entrench existing inequality. A few new millionaires are minted but I’m interested in solutions that provide an economic floor for everyone so we can all bootstrap if we want to instead.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by Nasrudith on Friday June 05, 2020 @12:28PM (#23430336)
The distribution is a result of VC being a lotto that pays out well enough that not only is it not a bad idea to play it in terms of return on investment. Unfortunately it takes a lot of money to "buy every ticket". Which means to "win" for a VC they need to win big enough to outweigh their massive pile of failures.

Except instead of a lotto board paying out it is growth of a successful company.

The second desire? Prepare for disappointment as it isn't a goal. A goal implies a workable path even if it is far fetched like "try to research a way to become immortal". Providing an economic floor is not only not a strategy for advancement (let alone a workable one) it would fail even if you had a magical no knowledge or possession prerequisite requirement provider of infinite "basics" to be unscarce like air or file bit combinations. Economics deal with the scarce - while rendering things irrelevant would be good a floor implies an actual use to build upon into the scarce.

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by rorykoehler on Friday June 05, 2020 @03:08PM (#23432557)
Sorry you lost me regarding why the economic floor is a bad idea. I like advancement too but not at such a high human cost. It is bad value for money and tbh I'm not sure how much advancement is actually taking place as we move beyond the breakneck innovation phase of this technological paradigm shift.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by bergstromm466 on Friday June 05, 2020 @08:55AM (#23427927)
According to some: "It works great!" Thanks to Intellectual-Property-Monopoly Valley the US government has access to all computers all over the world (Intel ME etc.), as well as backdoor access into Google, Facebook etc. [1] [2] [3]. And Palantir works to 'support Homeland security'.

[1] https://books.google.nl/books?id=9aamDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT142&dq=%E...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants...

[3] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/feb/11/crypto-ag-ci...

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by fauigerzigerk on Friday June 05, 2020 @08:26AM (#23427684)
It's not just Germany though. The UK is absolutely obsessed with making phone calls. Lots and lots of completely useless phone calls. Most of them could easily be replaced by an online booking system. Others serve no purpose at all, because all that's required is for them to take some action.

Same with US corporations. I recently tried to sign up for Microsoft's partner network because that's required for an Office 365 integration I was interested in. But I wasn't able to complete their byzantine signup process because there's a bug in the user interface that prevents me from confirming the tax status of my company. It's a simple bug, completely unrelated to the specifics of our company.

I wrote to them asking them to fix the bug so I can proceed. Predictably, they want to talk on the phone. They left some unintelligible message on my voicemail. Then they sent me an email saying they needed additional information from me without saying what that information was. They just want me to reply to arrange a time for a phone call.

I lost interest.

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday June 05, 2020 @08:31AM (#23427733)
Believe me, the UK is ages ahead of Germany in terms of digitization.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by KineticLensman on Friday June 05, 2020 @09:18AM (#23428133)
Can't comment on the UK / Germany comparison directly, but I still continue to be pleasingly surprised by the quality of access to functions provided by gov.uk. E.g. I recently renewed my passport wholly online, registered my car, checked that the Govt had a record of my car's MOT (roadworthyness) certificate, etc.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by _Wintermute on Friday June 05, 2020 @12:26PM (#23430311)
I never really appreciated gov.uk until I moved to France. Here nothing is online, you need to take days off work to stand in line and collect paperwork.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by brnt on Saturday June 06, 2020 @02:23AM (#23437240)
French bureaucracy is one of those things that totally lives up to the stereotype. Nothing has changed since Asterix' time.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by fauigerzigerk on Friday June 05, 2020 @09:25AM (#23428208)
I agree, gov.uk works really well.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by t0mas88 on Friday June 05, 2020 @11:12AM (#23429453)
The UK is ages ahead of Germany, but that's because Germany is very non-digital, not because the UK is so ahead.

When I lived in the UK things like online banking, internet speeds (even in London) and 4G/5G coverage all felt a few years behind as well.

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by peteretep on Friday June 05, 2020 @11:52AM (#23429916)
> all felt a few years behind as well

A few years behind whom, though? Consumer banking in the UK is eons ahead of America, and the UK has had a very dynamic and competitive consumer phone sector for years.

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by brnt on Saturday June 06, 2020 @02:26AM (#23437252)
US banking is possibly the most backward in all of the world. Even most (all?) of Africa has a leg up.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by rrrrrrrrrrrryan on Friday June 05, 2020 @05:52PM (#23434457)
Having lived in both the England and the US, I'd say that England's cities feel a few years behind American cities in terms of tech, but their rural areas seem a few years ahead of America's rural areas. I can't speak to other parts of the UK, but the gap in America is absolutely huge.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by toohotatopic on Friday June 05, 2020 @02:29PM (#23432051)
In which way is banking behind? Within EU, you can transfer money for free. You can automate your monthly payments or let companies draw the money. What else is there to offer?
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by brnt on Saturday June 06, 2020 @02:29AM (#23437260)
Try to get a French company (take its largest insurer for instance) to send a transfer to elsewhere in the EU. They'll insist on sending cheques (which can't be cached outside of France). I'm still waiting on my refund two years later.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by FrojoS on Friday June 05, 2020 @12:41PM (#23430492)
Same in Switzerland. Ordering mechanical components without a phone call or at least email exchange is often impossible. In some ways that's useful, you get free expert consultancy, but sometimes I feel like they almost don't want to sell their stuff. Like you need to ask an employee just to get the price. And even then they often can't tell you immediately.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by mschuster91 on Friday June 05, 2020 @12:04PM (#23430057)
> But I wasn't able to complete their byzantine signup process because there's a bug in the user interface that prevents me from confirming the tax status of my company.

Dito here, the solution is to validate your domain in Business Intelligence. No I am not joking. My email is in profile, I'll send you the process.

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by pnako on Friday June 05, 2020 @08:02PM (#23435391)
How far behind they are... Imagine having to talk to humans instead of interacting with scripts. I've always known that Germans are barbarians.

/s

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by brnt on Saturday June 06, 2020 @02:33AM (#23437277)
May the inventor of the customer service chatbot burn in hell. By being forced to communicate through heaven's customer service chatbot.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by f6v on Friday June 05, 2020 @09:00AM (#23427975)
Milage varies in Europe. In Germany, opening a bank account "over internet" means sending paper letters back and forth, while in Belgium I didn't have to sign or send anything by post.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by 411111111111111 on Friday June 05, 2020 @09:58AM (#23428588)
That depends on the bank.

Some allow you to sign the papers online and only require you to authenticate yourself to make the contract binding. This authentication can be done by letter as you said, it in person in the post office or with a video call in which you show your Ausweis.

Your bank just might not support these options, but some do.

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by sandravlado on Friday June 05, 2020 @12:04PM (#23430053)
Also, it depends on country. When I was opening a bank account in Czech Republic, they required a passport and that's it. In Ireland though, you need to wait until you get registered for taxes, then you need to show the proof that you work, then an accommodation contract in order to open a bank account. I spent a month without a bank account.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by dathinab on Friday June 05, 2020 @03:17PM (#23432670)
Na, you can do it all online for many Banks with some of the id check methods. It's just legally preferable for Banks to have a physical signed contract as there are a lot of responsibility on both parties sides so many Banks require you to sign and send them a contract. So it's not because they technically/legaly can't, it's just because they prefer not to for legal liability reasons.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by LeanderK on Friday June 05, 2020 @10:19AM (#23428850)
I recently opened a bank account on a major german bank (commerzbank). It took 15 minutes and I didn't have to send a single letter!
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by rorykoehler on Friday June 05, 2020 @11:06AM (#23429384)
I opened an n26 account via their app in Germany. Took me 10 mins including the kyc process
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by etaioinshrdlu on Friday June 05, 2020 @12:58PM (#23430703)
I find this interesting, but which South are you referring to? Southern Europe or Southern US?
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by ardy42 on Friday June 05, 2020 @12:29PM (#23430337)
> Up here in Scandinavia, we often laugh at how much Germans interact with humans, send letters and faxes, and make phonecalls in their business lives. They are woefully far behind. From what I understand the same is true for the south.

I wouldn't necessarily call it "being ahead" to embrace increased isolation from other human beings.

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by gspr on Friday June 05, 2020 @01:15PM (#23430948)
> I wouldn't necessarily call it "being ahead" to embrace increased isolation from other human beings.

Yeah, sorry, I wasn't clear. I was referring to stuff like this in GP's comment:

> Article about Gaia-X in major German newspaper FAZ explained that on AWS you can spin up your own infrastructure, "sometimes even without talking to anyone from sales", from your home!

I personally love human interactions, but the idea that I'd have to call Joe in sales to spin up a VM for a few hours is ludicrous. Likewise for a lot of routine mundane stuff that is easily automatable. I think the world will be poorer if we move humans out of our daily interactions, but that doesn't mean there isn't a lot to gain by moving the humans to where they can what they do best - namely be human!

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by dathinab on Friday June 05, 2020 @03:10PM (#23432566)
It should be noted that FAZ is not a tech news paper but a local to Frankfurt one. So the article was written by a person having closer to no tech understanding for persons without tech understandings. There are proper tech news paper in which you will not find such thinks. ;).

Edit: They do have a technical section but that is 70% cars and the rest are other physical tech thinks like kitchen utensils and vacuum robots.

Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by brnt on Saturday June 06, 2020 @02:31AM (#23437266)
Faz isnt a tech newspaper but also not a local one. Its famous throughout Europe.
Re:Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech s... by LargoLasskhyfv on Friday June 05, 2020 @12:46PM (#23430543)
It's not about the isolation. It's about enabling absurd business models by all sorts of outsourcing, promising to simplify, but in reality complicating things by having to implement all sorts of intrusive anti-fraud checks, because anything automatic can and will be defrauded. Which in turn leads to misery of all involved legit parties, loss of quality of life, by being reduced to some cog in some machine. Oh, of course jobs! The bullshit ones. With the exception of the few at the top.

/me snorts...