News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by BitwiseFool on Monday June 01, 2020 @12:13PM (#23380098)
If libraries weren't an ancient concept that preceeded copyright law they'd be illegal today.
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by leetrout on Monday June 01, 2020 @12:20PM (#23380208)
I am certain you are right.

And with that knowledge would be locked away to those who could afford access (be it with money or some form of social capital to ensure inequality).

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by vmchale on Monday June 01, 2020 @12:41PM (#23380479)
> And with that knowledge would be locked away to those who could afford access (be it with money or some

github stars.

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by izacus on Monday June 01, 2020 @05:45PM (#23384323)
> If libraries weren't an ancient concept that preceeded copyright law they'd be illegal today.

You can easily see this if you look at more modern medium: Gaming.

nVidia created a service where we could play games we bought on their machines. The publishers immediately sued and demanded that we be prevented from playing our own games on those machines without paying extra.

Copyright law now has become cancer - just like real cancer, the original base might be something that provided important value, but has now started feeding on the creativity of society and killing progress and freedom.

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by user5994461 on Monday June 01, 2020 @12:28PM (#23380325)
Libraries would be only illegal in the US though, because all these copyright issues are US specific.

Archive.org might as well rebase itself somewhere else.

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by pbhjpbhj on Monday June 01, 2020 @12:48PM (#23380556)
[My personal opinion, unrelated to any employment:]

FWIW I've studied copyright informally in UK, USA, and to a lesser extent other countries.

In UK our "Fair Dealing" is highly restrictive compared to USA's Fair Use.

Our (UK) archiving rights extend only to a couple of institutions and then only to people attending the library in person. We don't have rights to make backups; we don't have rights to format shift (except to help the disabled).

Yes, copyright specifics apply but wrt archiving USA is far from the most restrictive regime.

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by unicornporn on Monday June 01, 2020 @01:41PM (#23381297)
In Sweden we have the super restricted "right to quote"[1]. Fair use seems like a dream compared to this.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_quote

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by sudosysgen on Monday June 01, 2020 @01:22PM (#23381060)
And the US through it's massive influence and bullying would undoubtedly force it upon other countries, as they have done countless times including in the context of copyright.
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by dredmorbius on Monday June 01, 2020 @03:48PM (#23382909)
In the case of copyright, at least nominally, it's the more-restrictive (and European) Berne Convention (1886) terms which have been adopted elsewhere.

To what extent this reflects European rather than US interests I'm uncertain, though the latter certainly exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by btilly on Monday June 01, 2020 @04:08PM (#23383119)
It reflects the interests of special interest copyright groups who work both to get these treaties written with terms favorable to themselves, and to get laws passed to enforce them.

When those laws are passed they try to get the laws to be stronger than the treaty. Thereby leading to differences in laws and a push for a new treaty to "harmonize" different copyright regimes. Strangely, the new treaty harmonizes on the strong end of the laws passed, thereby creating a ratchet effect.

After decades of success on things like copyright terms, Disney finally reached the end of the road when the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement died. As a result Steamboat Willie, written in 1924, will become public domain in 2024, some 68 years after it was originally supposed to do so.

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by dredmorbius on Monday June 01, 2020 @08:31PM (#23385791)
Undoubtedly.

Point being that the initial push in the present direction came from Europe in the 19th century, no matter how influential the 20th century US publishing sector eventually became.

And to be clear, I don't think the "US, no, Europe" blame game accomplishes or illuminates much. Far more useful is to note that monopoly power seeks to extend itself, regardless of origin.

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by sudosysgen on Monday June 01, 2020 @04:06PM (#23383098)
I was in Morocco when we signed copyright restrictions, and I can assure you 95% of the pressure is from United States, and it is in the interests mainly of the US and it's allies.

As far as it reflecting European interests, the Berne convention is against European interests as it pertains to US copyrighted work as it offers them less protection than US works and forces a higher standard for US copyright than domestic copyright in many cases.

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by dredmorbius on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @10:50AM (#23391619)
Understood and accurate so far as I'm aware. As my other response notes, the tradition of copyright maximalisation began in Europe in the 19th century before being adopted by US interests in the 20th. Nationalistic attribution of traits answers far less than monopolistic power expansion.
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by sudosysgen on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @12:33PM (#23405348)
I agree wholeheartedly, the tradition of copyright maximization has its origins in capitalism and value extraction, as such it follows the siege of global capitalism as that is where the interests in the commodification and extraction of value from intellectual property originates from. So it naturally began in Europe, then in the US, and maybe shortly in China? We will see.
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by Mindwipe on Monday June 01, 2020 @12:55PM (#23380665)
Many countries pay copyright owners for library lending (the UK for example through the public lending right).
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by mcguire on Monday June 01, 2020 @03:21PM (#23382558)
In the US, libraries buy the books, etc., they lend, or pay for license agreements for digital media.
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by Mindwipe on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @08:58AM (#23390488)
UK libraries buy the books and pay additionally for every lend, as it should be.
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by mcguire on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @04:15PM (#23395825)
"...as it should be."

Hey, don't try to convince me. I spend most of the hundreds of dollars I pay for books every year at used book stores and things like estate sales.

I am literally Satan.

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by Nemo_bis on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @05:17PM (#23396427)
Same here. What publishers give to authors is practically zero, so if you want the author to get any money you're better off sending them a donation directly.
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by RunningDroid on Monday June 01, 2020 @12:48PM (#23380566)
>Archive.org might as well rebase itself somewhere else.

That would probably be extremely expensive given the fastest way to mirror the IA is with a truck full of hard drives.

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by toomuchtodo on Monday June 01, 2020 @01:23PM (#23381068)
It's actually relatively inexpensive to move gear via cargo container. I'd hazard you could move all 10PB of the Internet Archive for less than $25k-50k in shipping costs (~$2k per 40FT container), with labor extra for loading and unloading. (Disclaimer: I have coordinated data center migrations in a previous life)

Although, it's probably more financially efficient for other nations to offer cultural grants for local IA non-profit entities to spin up infra in country and begin mirroring the South SF location.

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by skissane on Monday June 01, 2020 @04:03PM (#23383070)
How many backups do they have? I'd hate for the shipping container to fall off the side of the ship, bye bye all that precious data.

(Just last week some shipping containers washed ashore on a beach in my local area – they had fallen off a ship [1].)

[1] https://coastcommunitynews.com.au/central-coast/news/2020/05...

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by tzs on Monday June 01, 2020 @02:46PM (#23382156)
What they are being accused of would be highly questionable under the copyright laws of over 190 countries, including almost all that are likely to be reasonable places to host a major internet site.
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by SomewhatLikely on Monday June 01, 2020 @01:38PM (#23381277)
The first sale doctrine protects similar activities such as video rentals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by koolba on Monday June 01, 2020 @02:17PM (#23381811)
Ah but you didn't buy that book. You merely accepted the EULA for a license to read the content of the pages, as written, in the order presented.
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by brlewis on Monday June 01, 2020 @04:00PM (#23383033)
You're joking, but this is the kind of thing that becomes true when enough people think it's true. What does a reasonable person think they're getting when they buy a book? That's the implied contract.
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by sokoloff on Monday June 01, 2020 @12:38PM (#23380430)
It seems to me that the First Sale Doctrine makes library lending (among any other use of an individual instance of copyrighted material) legal.

Unless you're arguing that the First Sale Doctrine was only created because libraries are older than modern copyright, I don't think I agree.

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by mcguire on Monday June 01, 2020 @03:14PM (#23382480)
Experiment: try applying the First Sale Doctrine to digital music, video, and software downloads.
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by cornishpixels on Monday June 01, 2020 @02:24PM (#23381885)
That's pretty clearly exactly what they're arguing.
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by sokoloff on Monday June 01, 2020 @03:38PM (#23382775)
For every application of FSD that applies to a lending library, it seems like there are 99 or more that apply to everyday lending, modification, repair, or resale concerns. Even if libraries didn't exist, I think we'd have something like first sale doctrine.
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by coronadisaster on Monday June 01, 2020 @01:08PM (#23380867)
A bit like mix tapes... Although many sites implemented the idea on the web. I need to mirror libgen while I still can.
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by ZenOfTheArt on Monday June 01, 2020 @04:45PM (#23383582)
Thank you, this is a brilliant comment.
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by api on Monday June 01, 2020 @12:46PM (#23380543)
You're probably right, but this doesn't solve the fundamental problem.

People who do intellectual labor, such as writing books, must be paid because everyone must be paid. Nothing is free.

There are two options:

(1) Copyright law, which allows them to erect toll booths and charge readers and users for their work.

(2) A socialist type of system where writers and other intellectual laborers are supported publicly.

The cyber-libertarian crowd is unhappy with both these options. They want everything to be free in all ways.

Since intellectual labor is not free, Jeff Goldblum's Law (from Jurassic Park) comes into play: life finds a way. The way to support oneself in the cyber-libertarian everything-is-free world is by either overt advertising or whoring oneself out as a propagandist (covert advertising).

A third variation also exists that combines aspects of both: surveillance capitalism. In surveillance capitalism all the free stuff is placed on a platform that spies on its users and the data is used to drive both overt and covert advertising.

This is why a simple news web site is 20+ megabytes of trackers, ads, and surveillance crap, and why every platform seems user-hostile. It's also why an increasing amount of intellectual product whether it be books, news, podcasts, etc. is actually political or other forms of propaganda. You can make money by shilling for political parties or political agendas. You can't make money by being balanced and honest and level headed. The work will be much higher quality but nobody will pay for it.

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by marcus_holmes on Monday June 01, 2020 @05:58PM (#23384465)
The third option, which works very well, is just by people donating to writers they want to.

The maths works out pretty well if you look at it as a marketing funnel for the author.

In the "traditional" model the author/publisher has to persuade a potential reader to part with money before reading the book, which has huge friction and costs lots of marketing money to persuade people that the book is good enough to buy before they read it - no "one month free trials" here. Using standard marketing funnel maths, they have to get the title in front of 10,000 people to get one sale (assuming a 1% conversion rate for the 2-step funnel). The net profit of this model is lower (for the author) because so much money is spent on marketing.

In the donation model, the author gives the book for free, and then asks for a donation afterwards. They only need to get 100 people to read the book (assuming a 1% conversion rate of people who have read it and want to donate). The cool thing is that those 100 people have read the book, and know it, will talk about it, will recognise the author when their next book comes out, etc.

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by Zonulet on Monday June 01, 2020 @06:49PM (#23384992)
I think your maths is off. A literary novel is a success if it sells 10,000 copies in hardback. I'm pretty sure that doesn't entail getting the book in front of a hundred million people.
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by marcus_holmes on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @07:21AM (#23389839)
no, the conversion funnel is "people see ad -> people click on ad/notice book -> people buy book". Getting the advert in front of 100mm people to sell 10K copies seems reasonable.
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by Nemo_bis on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @05:03PM (#23396297)
Indeed, given a rather typical conversion rate of 2 % you need a lot of people at the beginning to get thousands of sales. https://www.wordstream.com/blog/ws/2014/03/17/what-is-a-good...
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by mcguire on Monday June 01, 2020 @03:27PM (#23382647)
I'd just like to jump in here to point out that most intellectual laborers in the modern world are not paid, at least in terms of a livable wage. Even those intellectual laborers who are paid specifically for intellectual labor, are not paid for writing, for example; they are paid for some other activity with writing as a required side-project.
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by api on Monday June 01, 2020 @03:46PM (#23382889)
I'm quite aware that intellectual laborers are underpaid. I'm pointing out that abolishing copyright without any replacement system would make the situation far worse, effectively eliminating many careers.

If this work didn't have much value that would be one thing, but it clearly does. Otherwise people would not be clamoring for access to it. Nobody cares if crap is freely available.

People really want this stuff. They just don't want to pay for it either directly or via any public method. Meanwhile they spend the cost of a median price book or album in 1-2 visits to Starbucks without thinking about it.

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by zozbot234 on Monday June 01, 2020 @04:12PM (#23383186)
The replacement system for copyright is the system that was around pre-copyright: direct funding of works by people who have some interest in their production. Now applicable on a far larger scale via crowdfunding, as showcased by e.g. Kickstarter and IndieGogo (and used successfully to produce a sizeable amount of high-quality, free and open works).
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by syshum on Monday June 01, 2020 @12:56PM (#23380674)
no it is not the default that " intellectual labor" must be paid for in currency (which is the assumption of your post) my comment here for example is " intellectual labor" but i am not paid for it

There are all kinds of labor that people do with out being paid in currency for it, they derive other value from that labor.

You then present a false dilemma in that it is either copyright law or socialism (public funding), there are a whole host of funding models that have been proven to work over and over again that require neither. Open Source is a ripe with examples, YouTube also provides for some, but there are many others (including complete creative Commons books that are funding voluntarily, and voluntary "Pay what you want" systems)

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by rolph on Monday June 01, 2020 @05:05PM (#23383810)
i personally enjoy generating knowledge based products the payment being the edification of other person[s] in particular when the result is a synthesis beyond the original publication[s].
Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by api on Monday June 01, 2020 @01:01PM (#23380744)
You are really comparing a Hacker News comment that took 1-2 minutes to write with the content of libraries? It's hard for me to write a civil rebuttal to this.

It takes years to write a good book. Years. It's not something you just whip out.

The same applies to any non-trivial piece of music, art, software, engineering, design, or any other form of intellectual labor. People spend years and years on that stuff but only after they spend years and years getting good enough at their craft to actually produce it.

I guess there's another option beyond the two I cited above:

(3) Everything is low effort shit.

Open Source is almost entirely funded by large companies. Pick a popular FOSS project and look at who's committing to it. They're people being paid by large companies to do the work because the company has some vested interest in supporting it. The counter-examples are either SaaS driven (meaning they're not really open) or dual licensed (meaning they're using copyright law).

This sort of philanthropy has limits. In particular it doesn't work for consumer items, only for stuff that companies use directly.

I really don't think you want to bring up YouTube as it actually proves my point. YouTube is a cesspool of propaganda and divisive trolling. That's the kind of content you get when it's "free" and creators must find roundabout ways to get paid for it, such as by stoking society's divisions for attention to monetize ad views.

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by jimhefferon on Monday June 01, 2020 @01:41PM (#23381306)
Your point is very good. However I do want to mention a very limited exception. I am an academic and I write texts that are Free. I figure that a (I hope!) good text raises the profile of my institution and that students come to study at an institution because it has a good reputation. So while, as you say,

> It takes years to write a good book. Years. It's not something you just whip out.

nonetheless these works are freely available.

However, despite perhaps a few exceptions here and there (Kahn Academy is another), overall I very much agree. People have to be be paid. And while Patreon-type stuff is a great idea as far as it goes, it is not sufficient.

Re:Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive by mcguire on Monday June 01, 2020 @03:33PM (#23382717)
How are you defining "good book"? Successful in the marketplace?

No one gets paid to "spend years and years getting good enough at their craft" of writing. Very few people get paid reasonably to "spend years and years on" writing a good book.