News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by 4cao on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @07:06AM (#23309593)
In China:

- There is no single Play Store equivalent, so the barrier to make people install a relatively unknown app is higher.

- Phones do not come with Google Services Framework, so the barrier to develop a networked app is higher.

- Just like everywhere else, people will use whatever is available because a suboptimal solution is still better than opting out completely from the benefits these solutions bring.

I don't think in China specifically it's about low-end devices or data cost at all. South East Asia - perhaps, but all in all the situation reflects the structure of the economies (the prevalence of monopolistic conglomerates with a finger in every pie).

Most of the time the most widespread solution is far from excellent because it only has to be better than the competition. Even more so when competition is limited by entry barriers to the point it hardly exists. So while the article is a good summary of the situation, it ends up being a bit like wondering why people use Windows.

Android is already one abstraction layer on top of another, there is no intrinsic technological benefit of adding yet another one OS-like super app on top of it, or at the very least any such benefits remain to be demonstrated.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by echevil on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @12:27PM (#23313129)
In China and other emerging markets, downloading apps from app store are just something that many users would rarely do, no matter it is App Store, Play Store, or many other Android App Stores available in China. It is a big obstacle that most US developers never realised.

The main benefit of super apps, and why it is so popular in those countries, is that it doesn't require users to download anything to use new feature. In some use cases I also found that so convenient.

Just as an example, WeChat has an ecosystem of mini-apps. When you go to a restaurant in China, you can often find QR code on each table. If you can that QR code, it would open a mini-apps that lets you place orders and make payments, without waiting for the waiter to serve you. A mini app is like a website that doesn't require download and storage on the phone, but the user experience feels more native and is tightly integrated with features available in WeChat. It would be much harder to get users if the same thing requires you download an app.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by wenc on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @12:46PM (#23313369)
> In China and other emerging markets, downloading apps from app store are just something that many users would rarely do, no matter it is App Store, Play Store, or many other Android App Stores available in China. It is a big obstacle that most US developers never realised.

As someone who's never been to China and has never used a super-app: just curious, what are some of the obstacles faced installing a mobile app? Is it that most people don't trust un-curated apps?

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by xster on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @02:03PM (#23314397)
On Android, there isn't one single authoritative app store (since the Play Store isn't available). Therefore every carrier, OEM, major app maker make their own app store (which behaves belligerently to their competitors). The users and app makers get caught in the middle of this messy fight. As a user, you might pick the 'wrong' app store. And developers will never have time to upload every update to 100 app stores, each of which may require slightly different metadata. So the stores clone each other's APK which lead to very slow and irreversible rollouts for devs. In a hyper competitive environment like China, not being able to control exactly when your binaries deploy is a huge, vital vulnerability so it has to be solved.

A super app that brings existing user bases solves both the deployment and discoverability problems.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by echevil on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @10:56PM (#23318934)
In China (especially in tier 3,4 cities and rural places) and similar markets alike where many user have low digital literacy, installing apps from App Store is a skill that lots of users don't have. Their first few apps on their phone were most likely installed with someone else's help.

Actually learning every new app is an obstacle, but they managed to learn to a few apps like WeChat because it's super useful. They won't spend time to learn about something that won't bring immediate reward. Once they have a few apps installed on their phone, they'd feel that's enough.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by jagannathtech on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @11:54PM (#23319237)
Same thing in India too
Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by Wowfunhappy on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @12:30PM (#23313166)
Could you effectively replicate the restaurant example by having a qr code that leads to a website when scanned?

A nice, smooth, mobile-optimized website, I mean.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by echevil on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @12:37PM (#23313245)
Possible, but I see two big obstacles: 1. Mini-apps are optimized for this one purpose and feels much faster and native, websites won't be able to achieve the same. 2. Some features provided by WeChat is actually important, especially the payment part. Websites won't be able to integrate something like WeChat pay seamlessly as mini-apps do. If it requires users to put in credit card information, it would instantly fail in these countries
Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by wenc on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @12:51PM (#23313422)
I can't comment on 1 but for 2, I'm seeing a lot more merchants (probably Shopify merchants) support mobile payments on their websites (yes websites, not mobile apps) these days.

I can now go to a vendor's website (say jrwatkins.com, etc.) on my phone, checkout, do a fingerprint/face scan on Apple Pay and the transaction is done in under 5 seconds.

I assume the experience with Google Pay is similar.

There's no longer a need to create an account on the website. The delivery address defaults to the one on Apple Pay (and can be modified at time of payment). Delivery method can also be selected on the Apple Pay screen. My credit card number is never transmitted. This type of frictionless checkout that was once the domain of companies like Hoteltonight is now becoming more common on ecommerce sites.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by echevil on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @01:07PM (#23313642)
Yeah, if Apple Pay and Google Pay has the same market share then website could integrate those service and achieve the same, I agree. However, Apple Pay and Google Pay are also harder to use from the perspective of both consumers and merchants in these countries in the beginning, and IMO that's the reason they failed in the first place.

I don't know what payment methods these services require now, but in the beginning at least, they both supports just credit cards, which is basically suicidal. Most users won't be able to use it at all.

From merchants' perspective, they don't need to pay for transactions on WeChat Pay or AliPay, whereas both Apple Pay and credit card companies would charge them for usage. For this reason most small business wouldn't even think of using them.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by cxr on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @04:51PM (#23316245)
> Yeah, if Apple Pay and Google Pay has the same market share then website could integrate those service

According to the Apple developer docs[1], websites don't have to integrate with Apple Pay specifically; Safari also supports the (fairly new) platform-neutral Payment Request API[2]. Google's docs[3] suggest that something similar is available for Chrome on Android.

1. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/apple_pay_on_the_w...

2. https://www.w3.org/TR/payment-request/

3. https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/payments

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by wenc on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @01:15PM (#23313761)
Well, from what I'm seeing Apple Pay is gaining traction here in the U.S. Since the NFC part isn't proprietary, it works with almost any terminal (Ingenico, Verifone) that supports contactless payments (with few exceptions).

It supports Apple Cash, which in turn can funded via a bank debit card. (kind of like Venmo). There's no transaction fee with Apple Cash.

I believe there are currently no additional fees on the merchant side to accept Apple Pay [1], unless the customer uses a credit card via Apple Pay in which case the standard credit card fees apply.

[1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204274

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by cadmuxe on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @01:14PM (#23313739)
The point is the QR based wechat payment is available for all kind of phones and it's available early than apple pay or google pay. Some merchant like a fruit stand can accept a QR payment, and I don't think they can afford a post machine.
Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by wenc on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @01:17PM (#23313783)
Yes, with any kind of contactless payment, you need an NFC reader (which a smartphone kinda is), but it's much easier to print out a QR code.
Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by cadmuxe on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @01:33PM (#23314016)
yup, and we need to think about the timeline. At very early stage of this story, only limited phones support NFC, So wechat/alipay can quickly occupy the market with the QR base solution.
Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by lvbu on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @02:08AM (#23319864)
In India, it is quite similar and popular. However we can do that with a variety of apps. The amount will be deducted from account. It uses the unified payments interface (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface) tech and Bharath QR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BharatQR)
Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by Wowfunhappy on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @12:58PM (#23313522)
I was also thinking about Apple Pay in my original comment. But that's iOS-only, and I'm going to hazard a guess that Google Pay doesn't work in China, so we're back to GP's point.
Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by wenc on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @01:07PM (#23313640)
Right since the existing players are entrenched, but might work for other (emerging) countries?

We've never been big on mobile payments in the U.S. (because credit cards), but I'm finding myself using Apple Pay more and more. I read somewhere than ~50% of payments in the U.S. are now contactless.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by echevil on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @01:20PM (#23313826)
I think it largely depends on how much Apple Pay / Google Pay could abandon their western centric design and invest heavily on localization. Payment solutions are just hard to unify - Lots of people in Indonesia don't have bank accounts, Bank transfer is actually a popular way of transaction in Brazil...
Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by echevil on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @01:09PM (#23313675)
Apple Pay works in China, but basically nobody use it. It's designed with mindset that works in developed markets, and never worked out well in China.
Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by wenc on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @01:18PM (#23313800)
Oh I can see that. When QR codes are so prevalent, the appeal of Apple Pay is probably not great.

I'm kind of thinking of markets outside China though.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by echevil on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @02:48PM (#23314979)
Chinese companies are also thinking about that so it's matter of what works better in those markets
Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by jeroenhd on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @01:16PM (#23313764)
On Android, there's Instant Apps[1] though for some reason Google hasn't integrated them on all devices. They work through links/QR codes and through NFC tags. I believe they might also be accessible though the Google Bluetooth Le beacon API (so when you enable the specific feature, you'll get a popup like "this location serves the following app" which you can then instantly launch).

I don't know about iOS but the two copy features from each other all the time so Apple probably has it too (if they weren't the first to launch them).

Honestly, if you're working from a QR code you might as well just serve a mobile web app. If you add PWA support your customers might even install it if they come around often.

[1]: https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7683278

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by tanilama on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @10:21AM (#23311461)
> Android is already one abstraction layer on top of another, there is no intrinsic technological benefit of adding yet another one OS-like super app on top of it, or at the very least any such benefits remain to be demonstrated.

This has to be prove by market. If the OS-ish super apps are winning, means the customers are approving it.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by 4cao on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @11:27AM (#23312322)
> If the OS-ish super apps are winning, means the customers are approving it.

If people are not eating meat in North Korea, it doesn't necessarily mean they're supporting vegetarianism.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by tanilama on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @12:20PM (#23313038)
People are using Android, just not GMS.

It is funny, that GMS itself is yet another layer built upon Android.

How is it different that Tencent distributing this layer via WeChat, other than Google bundles this layer through GMS?

Tencent does have its counterpart of GMS, like piece by piece, but that approach isn't winning against WeChat either.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by echevil on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @12:30PM (#23313165)
The way WeChat distributes additional content is in the form of mini-apps, which has no similarly to GMS. It is something that does not exist in the ecosystem of US apps.
Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by analyst74 on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @12:52PM (#23313444)
I think what you said have merits, which I'm in no position of judging, but a couple facts are incorrect:

- there are multiple play store equivalent, i.e. Mi Store, Baidu store, and several others.

There is actually more competition at app store level in China, as opposed to Google's monopoly on that front, which might be the reason why user behaviors are different.

- not sure how you define OS-like abstraction layer, but Chrome is also basically a super app. In fact, developing for Wechat is more similar to developing website than native app.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by toast0 on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @03:22PM (#23315384)
> Phones do not come with Google Services Framework, so the barrier to develop a networked app is higher.

What do developers do for push messaging? In older versions of Android, you could maintain a connection to your server in the background, but recent versions make it really hard to stay active, even if you're big enough to get whitelisted by phone OEMs --- if you're small, is it even possible?

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by swiley on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @08:10AM (#23310103)
> - Phones do not come with Google Services Framework, so the barrier to develop a networked app is higher.

Looking at f-droid: hobbyists seem to do just fine without google play services. I feel like this gives you a business advantage rather than a technical one.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by 4cao on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @11:42AM (#23312523)
People who don't run Play services by choice will typically use MicroG [1], which still uses Google infrastructure.

F-Droid is doing fine but mostly with a certain kind of apps that either run entirely on the device, or connect to third-party networks via more or less established protocols like IMAP, XMPP, OpenDAV, etc.

Google provides Cloud Messaging, Firebase, etc. free of charge. Everything can be worked around with enough money thrown at it of course but choices like this tip the scale in favor of going for a mini-app instead of a standalone one.

1. https://microg.org/

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by Mediterraneo10 on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @02:25PM (#23314666)
Not all users who eschew Google Play services are using MicroG. I would be surprised if even a majority were. These days, the sole remaining large community for bare Android is Lineage, and not only does it ship without MicroG, any discussion of MicroG is banned on its channels.

I have set up Android phones with Lineage for several relatives, and if the user is comfortable doing online banking through the browser instead of a bank-provided app, then there is really no need for Google Play services or the MicroG substitute. Whatsapp runs fine without Play services, and in my region OSM-based maps are a viable competitor to Google Maps.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by duxup on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @08:18AM (#23310174)
f-droid is a horrible experience though IMO.

I go searching and I can't figure out what some of the apps even "DO", others are "Here is this app, you need to install these other things too to make it work, also it only works with X, so maybe it will work for you I duno....".

Now I get why it is the way it is, I don't expect much more from folks putting out software for me like that, but it's a terrible user experience.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by stallmanite on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @11:18AM (#23312217)
Conversely I always look on FDroid first because for me the quality of apps is higher and the level of shady BS is minimal. I only resort to the Play store if there’s no open source alternative.
Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by 4cao on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @11:44AM (#23312553)
> f-droid is a horrible experience though IMO.

It's not good for app discovery. You already need to know what you are looking for. Other than that, most of the time it works fine.

In other words, it's a bit like Amazon.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by swiley on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @08:25AM (#23310231)
>f-droid is a horrible experience though IMO

This has very little to do with what I said (arguing some library doesn’t make things easier) but ok.

>I go searching and I can't figure out what some of the apps even "DO",

It’s been a couple years but I don’t remember the play store being different.

>Here is this app, you need to install these other things too to make it work

Like the Termux API app needing termux? That’s the only one I remember being like that. Most of the apps I used were self contained. Do you have an example?

From memory F-droid was much better than google play except for the lower selection but it has been a while.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by LockAndLol on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @05:28PM (#23316607)
> f-droid is a horrible experience though IMO.

What are you installing to make it a bad user experience?

I don't have google services (no google account) at all, only use F-Droid and Aurora store and haven't any problems. Even convinced a friend to go the same route with minimal handholding and they aren't technically inclined - no problems.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by dehrmann on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @12:18PM (#23313016)
Remember the Fire Phone? Android without Google didn't go so well for Amazon.
Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by Wowfunhappy on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @12:33PM (#23313208)
The Fire Phone had other issues. It was a new player in a crowded market and had no reason to exist. It had one gimmick, but it was forgettable enough that I can’t even remember what it was right now, but I remember it was dumb.

Google themselves has struggled in this market: see the Nexus line.

Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by kevin_thibedeau on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @02:44PM (#23314913)
Parallax screen tilt
Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by toast0 on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @03:27PM (#23315433)
And swipe up for back, with just a home button. And that awful launcher.
Re:Asian and African super apps are following the playbook W... by pseudalopex on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @04:39PM (#23316115)
Outdated hardware too.