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Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by mikece on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:53PM (#23276177)
Since the start of quarantine I've been live-streaming Catholic Masses where the choir and schola take pride in their ability to sing polyphony and chant which you typically never hear these days and which has always been in the public domain. However, because commercial recordings exist of these works, every single Sunday I've got to file protests against the copyright notices, pointing out that these are live, original performances of works that were in the public domain for over 200 years (over 1500 in some cases). No matter, if a recording of this music exists then CLEARLY no human could have possibly duplicated, in the year 2020, a melody and text that was already ancient a millennium ago.

I realize this is machine learning and music sampling but I'm a tad surprised that the dataset cannot include a field such as "this recording is of public domain music"... and after a YouTube channel has to keep saying "No, I'm not playing someone else's CDs, we have a choir singing these live -- can't you hear the imperfections and that the soprano missed that eighth?" I suspect that at some point the channel will be cancelled because its too much of a copyright hazard.

Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by save_ferris on Friday May 22, 2020 @06:08PM (#23277629)
> I'm a tad surprised that the dataset cannot include a field such as "this recording is of public domain music"

If there's not a financial incentive to prevent situations like this, the likelihood that YouTube will correct it is approximately nil.

The sad truth is that the parties controlling the recordings that YouTube's algos erroneously protect are probably worth more to them financially than some church that broadcasts these performances.

Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by pmiller2 on Friday May 22, 2020 @11:50PM (#23279742)
This is an excellent, albeit seemingly unintentional, critique of capitalism. In a nutshell, if it doesn't make money, it's probably not happening.
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by basilgohar on Saturday May 23, 2020 @01:13AM (#23280097)
I don't know why parent's comments were downvoted, but this captures the same sentiment that is often reiterated frequently, "the market will correct/adapt" or "market forces will adjust" and so on.
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by pmiller2 on Saturday May 23, 2020 @01:26AM (#23280156)
Oh, I get why I was downvoted. You can't criticize capitalism on HN and expect to get upvoted. For instance, take a look at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23232811 . That comment is at -2.
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by throwaway9482 on Saturday May 23, 2020 @01:54AM (#23280316)
Definitely didn’t help that your comment sounded negative and angry
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by pmiller2 on Saturday May 23, 2020 @02:08AM (#23280376)
So, I'm not allowed to be angry or criticize anything on HN? That's news to me.
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by roenxi on Saturday May 23, 2020 @01:35AM (#23280217)
The copyright system is a little independent of capitalism - without it, the copyright holders wouldn't have any capital. It creates itself.

It isn't an unreasonable critique but there are schools of capitalism that do not like the copyright system. That isn't an inherent part of capitalism. Peak capitalism tends to ignore copyright (eg, Silicon Valley in the early glory years, or the market for movies once BitTorrent was developed).

Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by pmiller2 on Saturday May 23, 2020 @01:44AM (#23280259)
That's exactly why I didn't reference copyright in my comment, even though the article itself centered around it. The word "probably" was carefully chosen as well. There are definitely things that people do that don't make money, but few of them ever reach any significant scale. The major exception I can think of these days is the Linux kernel, which famously was a "just for fun" project. Another is the GNU project, which basically exists to advance some philosophical principles.

But, to a first approximation, in a capitalist system, if $THING doesn't make money, $THING isn't going to get done at any scale which matters. There are exceptions when philosophical principles and inherent human desires (such as curiosity and artistic expression) are involved. The corollary here, in true "the market adapts" fashion, is that if $THING is done and an entity with sufficient money dislikes $THING enough, then $THING will no longer be happening. I'm not sure whether the initial statement, or the corollary is fundamentally more distasteful.

Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by ARandomerDude on Saturday May 23, 2020 @12:52AM (#23280007)
Strange comment on a free forum (HN), with multi-industry fame.
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by pmiller2 on Saturday May 23, 2020 @12:54AM (#23280014)
Are you trying to argue that HN doesn't make money? Because, I'm sure Paul Graham might have something to say about that. The forum itself might literally be free to users, but the marketing value to YC is priceless.
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by save_ferris on Saturday May 23, 2020 @01:01AM (#23280052)
How is the fact that this forum is free to post on relevant to the argument? The vast majority of sites that support comments (including YouTube) are free to post on.
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by choward on Saturday May 23, 2020 @01:28AM (#23280171)
That's pretty bad and another reason I can't stand artificial scarcity. I think information itself should be free. There are other ways to make money off of it. It's trivial to transfer TBs of data. Any laws and rules you come up with are completely arbitrary. Companies transfer mass amounts of user data continually. But when people share data companies "own" its all of the sudden illegal. Libraries could not be "invented" in today's society unless they only contained user data and only could be visited by corporate interests.
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by smitty1e on Friday May 22, 2020 @04:38PM (#23276670)
The good news is that the means to roll your own system are within reach.

Maybe YouTube just has to commit copyright seppuku to achieve enlightenment.

Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by thatswrong0 on Friday May 22, 2020 @05:33PM (#23277305)
It's not really Youtube's fault though. The copyright system in the USA is absolute garbage and stifles creativity and innovation.
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by mullingitover on Friday May 22, 2020 @05:47PM (#23277436)
It's absolutely Youtube's fault. Nothing in the existing body of law requires them to proactively block copyrighted material from their platform. They only have to act on DMCA takedown notices in the required timeframe.

Their automation obsession has resulted in a firehose of erroneous takedowns that 100% aren't required by law, and they deserve all the ridicule and damage to their business that comes with that.

Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by badprose on Friday May 22, 2020 @05:53PM (#23277499)
It's not just YouTube that's automation obsessed. The groups filing the DMCA takedowns are also automatically scanning and flagging content on YouTube.
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by kube-system on Friday May 22, 2020 @06:38PM (#23277873)
The vast majority of content YouTube removes is not due to DMCA requests. It's pretty dumb to file DMCA requests with YouTube, because their manual claim process is easier to do and operates outside of the legal framework of the DMCA.
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by Figs on Friday May 22, 2020 @10:39PM (#23279358)
If YouTube actually followed the law instead of making up their own bullshit system those people could be sued for damages in court for filing false take down notices!
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by kitotik on Saturday May 23, 2020 @01:27AM (#23280160)
If YouTube actually followed the law it would have been shutdown even before google bought them.
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by kevin_thibedeau on Saturday May 23, 2020 @12:42AM (#23279957)
I'd like to see the lawyers censured for barratry.
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by acituan on Friday May 22, 2020 @06:41PM (#23277897)
> Nothing in the existing body of law requires them to proactively block copyrighted material from their platform

The fight doesn’t have to take place in the realm of law. At best copyright holders would have sued youtube into oblivion if they didn’t do proactive takedowns. At worst, well considering that Comcast owns both tons of copyrighted property (through Universal Studios) and major telecommunication infrastructure, I can’t imagine how dirty they can play if they had to.

Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by mullingitover on Friday May 22, 2020 @07:05PM (#23278092)
I think the latter scenario is why Google was so willing to go out of their way to appease the entrenched media conglomerates with their extrajudicial copyright enforcement. They want to get into licensing deals with the media oligopoly, and to do that they had to play ball by going above and far beyond the DMCA.
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by brooklyn_ashey on Saturday May 23, 2020 @02:13AM (#23280393)
Does Naxos pay Youtube for these takedowns?
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by fsflover on Friday May 22, 2020 @05:07PM (#23277049)
Consider publishing your work on PeerTube.
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by mikece on Friday May 22, 2020 @07:07PM (#23278112)
That supports live streaming? The “live” aspect is the reason we’re doing this at all since The State has been issuing “Thou Shalt Not Go To Church” orders for over a month.
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by _bxg1 on Friday May 22, 2020 @08:26PM (#23278641)
There are plenty of options for streaming that don't have trigger-happy copyright detection algorithms because they don't host static videos. Worst case, I've heard of people throwing together their own P2P video chat web app using WebRTC in just a few hours.
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by Larrikin on Friday May 22, 2020 @10:07PM (#23279191)
Are there tools to publish to both at the same time
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by soonix on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @04:38AM (#23320827)
(not addressing the original problem "false copyright notices", but) what about streaming to Twitch? Admittedly, they are mainly doing game streaming, so probably unknown to your intended audience, but they'd probably simply click on a link in your announcement, anyway.

I didn't find out whether they consider religious content as controversial or otherwise unwanted on their platform, but from the overall view, it looks fine.

Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by jhymn on Saturday May 23, 2020 @05:15AM (#23281416)
Would you mind linking to your live-stream recordings? I love listening to choral chants and whatnot. Very soothing.
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by specialist on Saturday May 23, 2020 @08:09AM (#23282264)
That's both unfortunate and infuriating.

Are there other hosting options? Vimeo, one of the podcasting "networks", or even a terrestrial radio station which has online archives?

Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by hardsoftnfloppy on Friday May 22, 2020 @05:59PM (#23277557)
Use DTube, spread the gospel and the gospel my brother.
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by orastor on Saturday May 23, 2020 @03:05PM (#23285506)
Could you share the channel with us?
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by mikece on Monday May 25, 2020 @08:38AM (#23300340)
Pretty much every live-stream listed on https://www.LatinMass.live
Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by invertedIdea on Friday May 22, 2020 @04:50PM (#23276827)
The idea is: Google doesn't want to get sued, Google needs to make money, Google is a middle-man extracting ad dollars from eyeballs, and paying royalties to living, litigious content owners.

So they will push music attached to dollars, according to the strictest legal terms of the loudest, most punishing complaints. Everything else is ignored, and thus sinks, or gets shoved off the top of the index by greed beasts that ignore courtesy, decency and rules.

Obnoxious greed beasts are sociopathic, and will game every tool Google arms them with. They want to be ranked highest for all keywords, as cheaply as possible.

So, how does one invert this payola scheme, as an eyeball used to justify advertising profits?

You have to tear the greed beasts limb from limb.

It may not be obvious, but the people that are filing spurious claims against you, are not good faith actors. They are the sock puppets of people who stand to make money from the keywords you stand to outshine all others on. You are likely crowding out low quality losers, who unfortunately have enough money to buy off-shore social media fleshbots that protest for them in surrogate.

Re:On Facebook and YouTube, classical musicians are getting ... by kube-system on Friday May 22, 2020 @06:22PM (#23277735)
> "No, I'm not playing someone else's CDs, we have a choir singing these live -- can't you hear the imperfections and that the soprano missed that eighth?"

That's precisely the issue. It is technologically impossible to solve the problem by analyzing the audio.

1. Two different performances could be audibly indistinguishable.

2. An infringing copy isn't necessarily indistinguishable. Often they have their own imperfections.