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Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by danso on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @12:44PM (#23248990)
This is brought up every time Microsoft and Github are discussed, and it seems like a very shallow thing to fixate on. Is it impossible that a company, with a new CEO and leadership team, would discard a strategy from 25 years ago (more like 50 years ago by non-tech industry timescales)? Especially now that its market dominance is fundamentally different and reduced (likely permanently) compared to the 90s? What evidence is there that Nadella is a Manchurian candidate for Ballmer forces?

Note that my issue with EXX being brought up is that it is superficial, to the point of being deceptive to the kind of threats Microsoft+Github are most likely to pose if Nadella et al do have their own malicious plans. But I think Microsoft's support for a healthy OSS ecosystem, via Github and things like VS Code, is genuine. Not necessarily out of altruism, but because it's one of the few ways they can have an edge into the future and not fall into stagnation like IBM.

Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by smichel17 on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @02:41PM (#23250267)
In my opinion, the current mores of the company are pretty irrelevant; power dynamics are what matter.

Tides change. Whether or not Microsoft is benevolent today, they may not be in 5+ years.

Any company large enough to screw me over without feeling the loss of my (and people like me's) business in their pocketbook, is not a company I want in a position of power over me. Adapted to this conversation: we should not tolerate "extend" from any company that could successfully pull off "extinguish".

Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by patcon on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @04:55PM (#23251686)
YES. It's about which realities are in the "adjacent possible", not about the personality of any entity in this "tick" of the timeline. We should avoid realities that make a "dystopic" reality more adjacent to us than we are willing to deal with.
Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by StrangeWill on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @08:44PM (#23253713)
Yeah, but that would honestly be an argument for any large company with leverage getting too much leverage, and this would apply to things like Google, Amazon, Apple, etc. and them using their leverage to control markets in similarly unethical ways.

It feels tiring that any time Microsoft does something good, EEE comes up, but times where Amazon or Google are doing massive damage to our industry or standards for their own benefits it's crickets.

Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by nindalf on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @01:08PM (#23249247)
I think you underestimate a few things

- How great it feels to make dire predictions about the future. Only I can see how terrible M$'s latest move is going to be. The other sheeple can't. When I'm right I'll tell everyone I told them so.

- How satisfying it is to educate these younguns with their JS frameworks. They don't have my wisdom and experience so I'm doing my duty to society and HN by sharing with them. I will paste links to wikipedia wherever necessary. Like so -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...

- how smart I'll look by talking cynically. Every action that someone takes will be followed by a cynical analysis which assumes the worst intentions. Wide eyed optimists will look naive to any person lacking context.

Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by nal10 on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @01:32PM (#23249523)
People were shouted down here 5-10 years ago for predicting that Google might turn evil, now it's almost a mainstream opinion here.

You know, simple predictions are often correct. But ignore it (especially if your salary depends on it).

Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by Voloskaya on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @02:38PM (#23250220)
For any company brought up here, there are people that say it is/will turn evil, so it is not exactly surprising that some of them are sometimes right. A broken clock is right twice a day bla bla.
Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by nurb on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @01:46PM (#23249692)
Salary is no excuse, just avoid working for ill-intention companies. You'll feel better and the world will be as well.

This is the only way to make a difference.

Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by r00fus on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @05:06PM (#23251810)
Making conscience-free salary doesn't necessarily mean it'll always be that way. Companies change, people change.

Are you suggesting people change companies every time they uncover their existing employer did something unethical/immoral?

I say this as someone whose employer in the past turned into a patent troll - as a new parent and during a downturn it was difficult to switch jobs for quite some time.

Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by Taek on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @01:41PM (#23249620)
Who would have thought in 2010 that 10 years from now Google would be a front runner for "most evil and controlling company on the planet" and that Microsoft would be the leading / dominant corporation in open source.

I'm not sure if I would have had a harder time believing that, or a harder time believing that Donald Trump of The Apprentice would become president of the United States in 2016.

Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by runawaybottle on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @01:25PM (#23249431)
I also think you underestimate how much fun it is for people who see the people seeing and pointing out that you see what their doing.

But we can keep seeing things in what has been seen, and never debate the merits in a circular semantics game.

Do you see? I see what you did, but I guess you saw what someone else did, and boom we achieved faux transparency.

And here is wiki article because I totally see what you did with that wiki thing, like so:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Silverlight

That’s the kind of stuff Microsoft tried to lock people into before.

And we remember a world where the stranglehold by IE had to be ruthlessly shredded with open web standards just to get back to sanity.

Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by danso on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @01:13PM (#23249303)
Oh I definitely get that appeal. I just would rather see more hot takes like "Github is doomed to be the Skype/LinkedIn of open source".
Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by alex_young on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @12:55PM (#23249108)
As with most interesting arguments, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

I don't doubt that MS would take advantage of market dominance again if it was achieved somehow, and I am sure they are making these plays with increasing their ecosystem in mind.

One interesting acquisition to look at is LinkedIn which they have really tightened the screws on to the point where everyone looking for employees or trying to find a job is made to pay. This is especially vile for the unemployed IMHO.

On the other hand, the eager monopolist of the day is really Amazon, and MS taking them on is a good thing for the ecosystem.

If there is competition MS seems to be playing a fair game. I hope it stays that way.

Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by Taek on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @01:39PM (#23249596)
> If there is competition MS seems to be playing a fair game. I hope it stays that way.

The structure of US corporations is such that they are fundamentally misaligned with playing a fair game. Corporations have two types of cycles: growth, and profit taking.

Regardless of who is in charge of Microsoft today, when Microsoft reaches a position of dominance, the leadership will be shifted by the board and shareholders to focus on exploiting that dominance, rather than continuing to play fair. We are only seeing fair play because Microsoft's position in the open source world is not yet entrenched.

Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by danso on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @02:14PM (#23249985)
Yeah, my most optimistic hope is that Microsoft and the other general software/services titans (Google, Apple, Amazon, Facebook) keep each other in equilibrium and in non-dominance, like 1984's Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia.

And hopefully there's room for smaller titans to provide specialized alternatives, e.g. Spotify, Dropbox, Gitlab, Zoom

Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by pritambaral on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @02:54PM (#23250402)
> Is it impossible that a company, with a new CEO and leadership team, would discard a strategy from 25 years ago (more like 50 years ago by non-tech industry timescales)?

Is it impossible that a company, with a new CEO and leadership team, would reanimate a strategy from 25 years ago (more like 50 years ago by non-tech industry timescales)? Especially one that the company itself used, and the new CEO witnessed first-hand being used, to great effect to acquire market dominance?

> What evidence is there that Nadella is a Manchurian candidate for Ballmer forces?

What evidence is there that Nadella is not trying to use the same tactics as Ballmer?

Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by type0 on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @03:41PM (#23250881)
Now MS is saying they were wrong about Linux being cancer

https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/18/21262103/microsoft-open-s...

They could certainly change their minds again if it suits them

Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by nogabebop23 on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @04:34PM (#23251446)
They've always supported their developer ecosystem better than any other company as well. Nobody else has spent anything like the the time, effort and resources they have in helping devs thrive in their ecosystem. Not because "they're good people" but because it's effective.
Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by boomboomsubban on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @04:15PM (#23251239)
From my perspective, all of their actions with open source can be classified as embrace or extend. Their open source work has very little use unless paired with their proprietary software.
Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by sadfev on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @04:11PM (#23251200)
Classic Microsoft apologist’s rant.

Microsoft still does quite a few detrimental things towards open source movement and community in general.

Microsoft is now a wolf in sheep’s clothing

Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by nogabebop23 on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @04:32PM (#23251423)
So, taking into account they are one of the largest publicly traded companies in the world, what could they do to start earning your trust?

If the answer is nothing, then logically they should disregard you and carry on.

Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by runawaybottle on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @05:27PM (#23252003)
I’d say another 15 years of no bad behavior, minimum.

The web in particular is still traumatized from years of IE use/development. You needed a virtual machine to test IE on linux/Mac, think about that for a second. It’s great that they realize ‘woah we didn’t give a flying fuck about developers before, huh?’

We’re still being super nice to Microsoft that we don’t give them a pure cold shoulder and accept and evaluate their contributions.

Need time, can’t just go running back to the ex because they bought you something expensive.

Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by SerLava on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @05:29PM (#23252011)
I don't think he's proposing that we politely ask microsoft to quit being exploitative.
Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by anlk on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @04:47PM (#23251589)
This must be one of the strangest pro Microsoft opinions I've ever read here.

Nadella IT cells...

Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by nerdponx on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @04:37PM (#23251475)
I think the most recent impetus is the DirectX+WSL thing that was posted earlier today https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23241040
Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by jayd16 on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @04:20PM (#23251295)
I like what MS is doing these days but I also think its fine to be incredulous, to keep a large corporation at arm's length, and to not forget what can be done if we stop paying attention.
Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by guerrilla on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @03:08PM (#23250529)
Emperical evidence says no. They just extinguished Wunderlist.
Re:Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish by cargoshipit on Wednesday May 20, 2020 @03:51PM (#23250985)
I knew something like this would be the top comment as soon as I saw the title.