Sex work is work all the same. From a normative standpoint, we ought to support sex workers directly, rather than the studios and production companies that are often exploitative.

OnlyFans seems to get rid of the middlemen in the porn / cam girl industry, I think that's a massive benefit for sex workers today.

My question to most people on this forum are: would you really be ok if your daughter was best friends with a sex worker? Everybody says "of course!" in theory... but in reality I think it falls apart. Lots of blurred moral lines.

Any blurring of moral lines likely comes down to hangups W.R.T Body Autonomy. At the end of the day, if you one believes that everyone is allowed to make their own choices about their body, that would have to include their daughter, their spouse, their mother even.

Exactly! You get it. I find it so hard to believe that there is supposedly zero overlap between HackerNews comment posters claiming "there is nothing morally wrong with sex work" and people who in reality when pressed with the exact situation would say "I am against my little sister performing sexual acts for money"

I think most drugs should be legalized, but I would still be against my little sister doing meth. That's how I see this situation too. People obviously should be allowed to do sex work, but I think that there are hidden costs that are difficult to understand beforehand. I wouldn't bar her from it but I would discourage it.

Sex work is ok if the situation isn't coercive. A situation where the only reasonably available alternative choices are homelessness or starvation is coercive. Sex work is fine but a system that provides it as "last ditch employment" or as a means of survival in absence of alternatives is no different than rape. This applies to a lot more than sex work though :/

Are many of these women coerced into prostituting themselves? Do you have a similar moral problem with people doing other jobs out of desperation, like back breaking labor?

> Are many of these women coerced into prostituting themselves?

We lack studies on this in the US. I'd argue that most people who are involved in an illegal profession (in the US at least) often doing so for lack of viable alternatives.

In other countries where prostitution is legal and regulated, it seems is less likely to be a profession of last resort.

> Do you have a similar moral problem with people doing other jobs out of desperation, like back breaking labor?

Very much so.

And yet, we are not allowed freedom during a coronavirus lockdown.

As much as I would like to believe that Joe McRando is going to keep a six foot distance from me and where a mask, I've seen enough to make me believe he wouldn't.

Therefore, it stands to reason that it be, maybe not illegal, but definitely very heavily encouraged for people to stay home. It's one of the few cases where I am pro-government power (as much as it kills me inside to say).

When the government tries to prevent measures to limit this overreach (as in the LA mayor not allowing petitions to circulate for his recall) then I have to beg to differ.

Obviously limiting free speech is absolutely not okay.

If I came across as overly combative in my last comment I'd like to apologize, that was not my intention.

Yeah I think a lot of people like to pretend on the internet that they're super accepting and liberal, but if their daughter told them she was a whore, they wouldn't be so accepting behind close doors.

>My question to most people on this forum are: would you really be ok if your daughter was best friends with a sex worker? Everybody says "of course!" in theory... but in reality I think it falls apart. Lots of blurred moral lines.

I have more respect for a sex worker than someone who builds unconstitutional mass surveillance tools. At least most sex work is legal.

I think the only "blurred moral line" wrt sex work is that folks who were supportive of gay rights, marijuana legalization, and other individual freedoms then pump the brakes on their social libertarianism as soon as the chance to support a vulnerable population appears that may actually require politely but firmly disagreeing with folks they personally know.

> but firmly disagreeing with folks they personally know.

That's what I'm trying to poke at here in these comments. It's almost as if you do not support sex work/aren't ok with the theory of having it in your household, you're the enemy. You aren't cool, you're behind the curve, and you need to work on yourself to get your views more in line with the rest of the more liberal folk. That's how it reads to me anyway.

Well to be frank, you do seem rigid in your thinking. For example, I pointed you at a noted libertarian think tank earlier in the thread, and you basically ignored my post and continue to describe being for the decriminalization of sex work as a "liberal" mindset.

Most political scientists reject the left right dichotomy altogether and use a "political compass" instead. You seem to be posting from the "authoritarian right" quadrant:

https://www.politicalcompass.org

Maybe if you adjusted your attitudes based on data, rather than insist your views are right because they are your views, you'd feel less uncool or "behind the curve".

I just don't get how you can't abstract away the fact that:

1. the right have their political compass point to Christianity, guns, less government, anti-homosexuality, anti-abortion

2. the left have their compass point to redistributing wealth from the rich to the poor for social programs through taxes, support for transgenders, democratic socialism, etc.

I just feel like the 'compass' thing is saying what is already obvious in a different fashion. Am I missing something?

> why don't we see it as a talent as we see "tech jobs" as talent?

Good damned question. Sex work is work.

I'll bite and talk about the subject, since I've been involved in that community as both a buyer and sort-of-seller (Helped a ManyVids star rise to the top 20 in their category with feedback, strategy and ehem... 'collaborations' but I'll get back to that)

I don't find sex work in and of itself immoral. That is of course an opinion.

On the other hand... It's another subculture in and of itself. And unfortunately, it's a subculture that often rewards immoral behavior and/or pulls people down dark paths.

From the buying side, It's been interesting to see the different ways that sellers behave. The ways some of them cut corners and/or 'lightly cheat' clients is questionable. The worst form I've experienced is when you make a larger services purchase and it become obvious over the session that you just supported some bad chemical habit of theirs. But I've also had sellers try to cheat the clock.

And I've had MULTIPLE sellers violate my consent in hypnosis sessions.

But perhaps worst was initiating a relationship with a seller for 2 years, only to discover that she had a boyfriend (now fiance) out of state in med school. That's the one I collaborated with, turned out that I was really helping someone who lived in a guilded cage buy more toys for her, NOT helping her make ends meet.

And now, I live in constant worry that she'll start distributing the videos we made again. They were made such that they JUST fall out of my state's classification of Revenge porn. Perfect example of an Immoral seller. When COVID broke out she immediately started e-begging, claiming that she couldn't make her car payments (which I knew was a lie on multiple levels.)

And yet, less than a month later she's posting more fancy outfits, gadgets, etc. that she's purchased.

From the seller's perspective:

- You get scammers too.

- You're living on the edge of acceptable behavior. If you're not using a payment service that approves of your work, One properly targeted set of emails from a disgruntled customer could lead to any uncollected money.

- You have to be -very- careful about your online life. Lots of sellers keep their real life online profiles as locked down as possible, lest someone find their real identity via image search algos.

- You get a lot of people who will either waste your time, troll, or outright harass you.

Which, if anything is what concerns me about the business as a whole. Someone else on HN pointed out in another thread that once you perform one bad act, many times you have to perform another bad act to cover up the first.

I've watched sellers go from kind to cruel after going through the industry for a while. It does change people, and not for the better.

> And I've had MULTIPLE sellers violate my consent in hypnosis sessions.

I'm not really familiar with this space, so forgive me if this is a dumb question, but what does this refer to?

Do people buy hypnotism from cam folksover video chat? And if so, what would constitute a breach of consent?

If that's too personal to ask, I apologize and respect your privacy.

I genuinely know nothing about hypnotism, and it's been quite a few years since any of my friends were camming, so I'm genuinely curious.

> Do people buy hypnotism from cam folksover video chat? And if so, what would constitute a breach of consent?

Well it's like anything else in that trade, some people like live, some would rather pre-order custom made content. Hypnosis is a big rabbit hole I'd rather not get too far into and we're already on the fringe of HN's overton window. One example might be trying to implant suggestions to give them more money.

Maybe the best analogy would be that a good hypnotist is a almost like a FAANG in living human form; They're just trying to convince you to do/think something. And, well, there's some things you just don't want to be sold. :)

While I've only been hypnotized for therapeutic reasons, I would have definitely found a new therapist if my session contained any suggestions that would benefit the clinic... That's slimy.

You're a whale getting played repeatedly and what's weirder is that you seem to know it.

Do you think the lack substantive social acceptance for sex work drives this behavior to an extent (you mention "living on the edge of acceptable behavior"), e.g. either side can cheat and leverage the risk of public exposure no matter how small (enough to prevent you from communicating with customer service)

I think it drives some of the behaviors, yes. If more people were okay with sex work, doxing would be less of a fear for both sides.

OTOH, In general, even sex-positive people often (and have a right to) prefer to keep the details of their escapades as to themselves as possible.

I -do- think there's a lot of room here for better platforms for sellers -and- buyers, but it's an industry nobody wants to get into because of all the bookkeeping and risk involved.

The primary argument against legalization (or normalization) of sex work is that it leads to increased human trafficking and organized crime. There actually is some evidence to back this up, but I wouldn't call the debate settled.

The message this sends to girls is that if you’re pretty, this is the easiest way to make a lot of money. It damages the work of people who have spent decades trying to get women to be valued for things other than their bodies.

Men often do physical labor, something which they are on average physiologically better at. We don't discourage them from doing that because we "only value men for their bodies".

Physical labor is very commonly looked down upon.

Not in the way that sex work is.

I once heard something from someone I never want to agree with but it was a decent point. If intelligence is part of the biological lottery and we value it as an employer for all the advantages it could bring your business, then it's fair to think that someone who is attractive has won a similar genetic lottery and it could bring similar benefits to your business.

It's something I want to disagree with, except I can see that there is more truth to it than not, even if it goes against what I believe the world should be.

I think it’s a good point, and not one I’d considered. But there’s a large lead lead time required to hone intelligence in school or by other means that it doesn’t account for.

I think the message of telling a person what is and isn't acceptable behavior based only on their gender / sex does nothing but reinforce harmful stereotypes and expectations

Looking pretty can be a lot of work.

This says more about the relationship between value and money than it does about what is or isn't valuable.

Thats incredibly patronizing

I think the new world of normalized prostitution is going to be great and healthy.