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Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by csomar on Monday May 11, 2020 @04:46PM (#23146849)
Though I'm not sure why so many people were hinged about Tether (albeit the average solidity of its peg meant it's legit); the positive effect of this is that we now have lots of different stable USD coins: Coinbase, Gemini, TrueUSD, Binance all have stable coins with a total cap of over $1bn. Sure it's much less than TetherUSD $6.3bn but it's roughly 16%. Much better than the total monopoly of tether two years ago.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by koheripbal on Monday May 11, 2020 @07:11PM (#23148388)
Not a single one of those cryptos that claim to peg to the dollar is fully capitalized.

Pricing a "market cap" for a crypto when only a tiny percentage of it is trading in the market is not a realistic measure of value.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by darawk on Monday May 11, 2020 @09:33PM (#23149617)
Yes they are. Please don't spread this nonsense:

https://cointelegraph.com/news/trueusd-audit-shows-full-us-d...

Not only are many of them full backed, but they all trade extremely close to parity with one another. Which means that they are all considered relatively safe by the people actually holding them.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by oarsinsync on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @05:17AM (#23152025)
> but they all trade extremely close to parity with one another. Which means that they are all considered relatively safe by the people actually holding them.

trading rather than holding. The people doing the trades are the ones determining the pricing. The people holding are reducing the supply of the asset in the market, but they're not actively participating in pricing of trades.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by darawk on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @03:04PM (#23158258)
The current price is the equilibrium of supply and demand. Not only are the holders holding, but the market makers are providing liquidity at those prices. Deep liquidity.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by eru on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @01:52AM (#23150920)
Do you mean fully capitalized in the same sense as 'backed' or in a different sense?
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by chii on Monday May 11, 2020 @07:15PM (#23148443)
i agree. A more realistic value is definitely the sum total of transactions conducted using said coin. Counting market cap as value is like counting the market cap of WeWork using the funding valuation they got for a small % of equity.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by jkhdigital on Monday May 11, 2020 @07:26PM (#23148568)
Bitcoin is a monetary asset with no underlying fundamental value. Transaction volume is meaningless. The only thing that matters is what someone is willing to pay for it.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by Vindicis on Monday May 11, 2020 @08:59PM (#23149427)
Not to mention that it's always just a hairsbreadth away from being obliterated by Governments if they ever choose to.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by mirimir on Monday May 11, 2020 @09:31PM (#23149610)
As I recall, Bitcoin was designed for resilience to government pressure. But that's never been tested, in any substantive way.

I'm not aware of any reason why the Bitcoin network couldn't switch to VPN-level overlay networks. Using Tor would be somewhat problematic, given the limited bandwidth. But I'm pretty sure that it'd be doable. Other options include Orchid and Loki.

Mining could be an interesting issue. Government pressure could render large-scale mining operations unworkable. But as I understand it, the Bitcoin network could function just as well with far^N less mining capacity. Difficulty would just decrease with less mining competition. And that would mitigate the key negative impact of electricity usage.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by judge2020 on Monday May 11, 2020 @10:01PM (#23149800)
Bitcoin isn't resilient because trading goods for bitcoin doesn't happen, therefore BTC is reliant on people being able to purchase it using their existing government-controlled money using regulated bank accounts.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by mirimir on Monday May 11, 2020 @10:27PM (#23149961)
There's probably a workaround for that. Or there arguably would be, if enough people cared enough.

Not too many years ago, there were trusted services that sold Bitcoin (and Liberty Reserve and Pecunix) for cash sent anonymously through the mail. I haven't needed that for years, but I'm pretty sure that such services still exist. And given the escrow sector that's developed to serve dark marketplaces, trust is likely far more verifiable.

Cryptocurrency and meatspace money are now entirely separate for me. I earn all the cryptocurrency that I need anonymously online. And I don't risk manifesting it as meatspace cash. While that's not currently workable for most people, I don't see why it couldn't become so.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by belltaco on Monday May 11, 2020 @11:03PM (#23150160)
>Cryptocurrency and meatspace money are now entirely separate for me. I earn all the cryptocurrency that I need anonymously online. And I don't risk manifesting it as meatspace cash. While that's not currently workable for most people, I don't see why it couldn't become so.

How do you buy things in real life?

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by wallacoloo on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @02:30AM (#23151084)
Even if buying goods with crypto is out of the question for you (say, because you don’t want it linked to any physical address), you can still buy a decent range of services. A whole suite of digital services (VPS, VPN, bulk data backup, domain registration, etc) is buyable with cryptocurrencies. A number of places will also accept donations in Bitcoin. Depending on your social ties, you might commission digital art with Bitcoin.

Now, most people I know who hold Bitcoin are motivated primarily by other reasons. But still, I can cut down my cash spending/donations by a few $1000/yr just by doing those things above — which have fairly loose ties to my physical person — with Bitcoin.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by mirimir on Monday May 11, 2020 @11:16PM (#23150244)
With meatspace money. In my case, savings. But I could also have income.

The point is that my online anonymous coward personas and my meatspace identity are as isolated as I can manage.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by chii on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @12:44AM (#23150659)
> With meatspace money

i.e., you cannot fulfil your meatspace needs using cryptocurrency as of yet. It doesn't matter that you are able to isolate your identity online from your meatspace identity.

And this is what gov't can easily enforce - through money laundering laws. If ever cryptocurrency becomes prevalent enough to offer meatspace usage directly, you can bet your bottom dollar that gov't will regulate, and prevent anonymous spending (at least, for any large-ish amounts).

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by mirimir on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @01:34AM (#23150850)
That's true. But still, cryptocurrencies could arguably remain useful, even if they never widely displaced meatspace money. I mean, consider how thoroughly online dark marketplaces have displaced meatspace drug dealers. And perhaps there are other suitable niches.

For example, cryptocurrencies could displace cash for gig economy tips. Maybe they already have, for all I know. Also for online porn and gambling.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by shadowprofile77 on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @03:59AM (#23151552)
And in basic terms, how do you earn your crypto, selling what? I can think of only a limited number of things one can easily, readily sell for BTC or etc.. So, a bit curious and hope you don't mind answering since you're anonymized.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by mirimir on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @07:28PM (#23161368)
Mostly I write stuff for people. I've written a lot for IVPN's website, and also for Restore Privacy. I bill at typical meatspace rates.

I've also done some privacy-related development. For example, a client wanted a private IKEv2 server with a nested VPN chain backend. To provide iOS devices with anonymity that was stronger than VPN services provide, but also easy to use.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by jmkd on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @04:03AM (#23151576)
This is a description of monetary assets, of which bitcoin is an example.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by GoblinSlayer on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @04:46AM (#23151833)
Not so long ago oil of all things went into negative price range. I wonder what fundamental values are out there underlying money.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by ivalm on Wednesday May 13, 2020 @02:20AM (#23164026)
Taxes and tanks (also for now usd is the settlement currency for lots of contracts).

Also, oil has large carry costs. Many things with large carry costs are called toxic garbage and have negative value. Oil is just a useful so it mostly has positive value, but the moment you can’t use it, it joins in valuations other toxic garbage.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by SkyMarshal on Monday May 11, 2020 @06:18PM (#23147788)
> the positive effect of this is that we now have lots of different stable USD coins: Coinbase, Gemini, TrueUSD, Binance all have stable coins with a total cap of over $1bn.

"Stablecoins" are not stable. How many times do we have to learn this lesson in finance? The probability distribution underlying this stuff is not what stability proponents think it is. They will be stable until they aren't, and then they will blow up. Chasing stability in inherently unstable systems is a fool's game.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by product50 on Monday May 11, 2020 @06:30PM (#23147911)
Read more about USDC and then come back. USDC is literally backed 1-1 with USD in a bank - by definition.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by SkyMarshal on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @04:52PM (#23159619)
There are at least three reasons why USDC could become unstable:

1. Pegged value currencies are subject to Soros-breaking-the-Pound style attacks.

2. USDC is based on Ethereum, a first-generation cryptocurrency with numerous design flaws, at both the protocol and scripting language level. On top of that is an increasingly complex network of DeFi apps which can be exploited in sophisticated ways, as we saw with recent multi-part hack across several DeFi apps.

3. The US Dollar itself may be heading into a period of instability, given the massive US Govt debt and Federal Reserve operations.

You can stick your head in the sand and pretend stablecoins are stable, or you can acknowledge they’re more likely one more in a long history of financial folly.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by fredophile on Monday May 11, 2020 @07:12PM (#23148403)
I'll believe that when I see an audit.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by occamrazor on Monday May 11, 2020 @07:38PM (#23148715)
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by fredophile on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @01:05AM (#23150743)
Thanks. That does make it seem more credible than some other crypto currencies.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by eru on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @01:54AM (#23150927)
Scotland's private money issue banks provided stable currency for a long time. The ones in Canada, too.

(Their governments finally put an end to it. But I'm not sure you want to include that in the 'system'?)

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by arcticbull on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @05:52PM (#23160393)
"stable" currency isn't "stable" because it doesn't exist in a vacuum. Populations grow, economies expand, efficiency increases. If I have $1 in 1919 when the GDP was $500B (and there were only 100M people) vs $16T (nominal), and I sock it in a drawer, I now own a much, much larger share of the US money economy than I did. I didn't earn it, I just held onto it. I accumulated value by virtue of "I got there first, sucks to be you."

There's no good reason to encourage value generation through inaction. That's one of the many good reasons to have abandoned deflationary currencies.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by eru on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @11:13PM (#23163070)
If you held a Scottish pound, you typically held a piece of paper from the bank that you got in return for making a deposit.

From the banks point of view, funds in checking accounts and funds issued as cash were pretty much the same. Just that the cash didn't pay interest, and you didn't know who had it. And it could get lost and never come back to you. (Though perhaps similar to people abandoning accounts sometimes?)

Holding the notes issued by a bank was equivalent to giving the bank a no interest loan. The bank itself invested the funds in loans to other companies. You forewent consumption and took on some risk.

Nominal GDP was remarkably stable over that time in Scotland. In reverse that means that one pound represented about the same share of total economic activity year after year. (The absolute, real amount of economic activity increased a lot.)

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by arcticbull on Wednesday May 13, 2020 @03:19AM (#23164347)
That's really cool, actually, I'll have to read more into it. Cheers, thanks for sharing.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by AgentME on Monday May 11, 2020 @07:07PM (#23148323)
While you're mentioning stable coins, it might be worth mentioning DAI, which unlike the others, is decentralized and managed by a public smart contract, instead of being centralized and managed by a single company which could lie about its reserves and could choose or be forced to shut down.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by latchkey on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @01:38AM (#23150871)
There is one small issue with DAI in my eyes. It has been trading for a premium, while at the same time you can't make a profit from owning it because the spread is always an issue. I am testing an automated contract that does 3 way arbitrage between USDC/USDT/DAI and it has never once crossed over to DAI, while USDC/USDT cross each other enough to trigger a trade, 1-2 times a day.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by TylerE on Monday May 11, 2020 @04:52PM (#23146924)
Because when the whole house of tulips inevitably comes crashing down, the stable coins are gonna be worthless too.

So people will take 99.99999999% losses and not 60-80%.

Real dollars go in.... IOUs out of a bull's behind come out.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by csomar on Monday May 11, 2020 @04:57PM (#23146992)
Coinbase/Gemini USD are US regulated. So... no.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by ac29 on Monday May 11, 2020 @05:44PM (#23147465)
Given this all-caps disclaimer, I wouldn't exactly be reassured that USDC would be worth anything in the event Coinbase went out of business:

"USDC IS NOT LEGAL TENDER. USDC IS A DIGITAL CURRENCY AND COINBASE HAS NO RIGHT TO USE ANY USDC YOU HOLD ON COINBASE. COINBASE IS NOT A DEPOSITORY INSTITUTION, AND YOUR USDC WALLET IS NOT A DEPOSIT ACCOUNT. YOUR USDC WALLET IS NOT INSURED BY THE FEDERAL DEPOSIT INSURANCE CORPORATION (FDIC) OR THE SECURITIES INVESTOR PROTECTION CORPORATION (SIPC)."

(https://help.coinbase.com/en/coinbase/getting-started/genera...)

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by shawabawa3 on Monday May 11, 2020 @06:08PM (#23147701)
If you read the FAQ, Coinbase doesn't even issue USDC, Circle does, so Coinbase going out of business won't affect the balances in Circle's bank account or the redeem-ability of USDC. They also actually publish regular audits unlike Tether

https://help.coinbase.com/en/coinbase/getting-started/genera...

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by gruez on Monday May 11, 2020 @06:29PM (#23147904)
>Given this all-caps disclaimer, I wouldn't exactly be reassured that USDC would be worth anything in the event Coinbase went out of business:

But every line in the disclaimer are probably applicable to bond/USD ETFs as well, but people aren't exactly fleeing from those.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by ac29 on Monday May 11, 2020 @06:47PM (#23148058)
Bond holders have a certain legal right to claims on assets of a company that becomes insolvent - I'm not sure what legal rights USDC holders would have.

But either way, I think most people would not tend to view something like USDC as a bond (in which the bond holder is a creditor to the bond-issuing organization, with the associated risk-adjusted return on capital), but more like cash.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by GoblinSlayer on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @05:01AM (#23151925)
Should the assets of the company provide full backing of the bonds?
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by arcticbull on Monday May 11, 2020 @09:34PM (#23149622)
Chuck-E-Cheese tokens are US regulated so... my point being of course that just because something is under US jurisdiction doesn't make it "good as gold" so to speak. The structure of the underlying implement is what matters.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by TylerE on Monday May 11, 2020 @05:33PM (#23147351)
Because regulation worked SO WELL in numerous cases anyone could name (Enron, Worldcom, Authur Anderson, Lehman Brothers...)
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by arcticbull on Monday May 11, 2020 @06:43PM (#23148025)
Picking out a small handful of obvious failures is not a useful exercise for or against regulation. Regulation has had numerous incredibly life-chantingly beneficial effects on our lives. Thanks to the EPA, the rivers no longer literally catch fire. I'd trade one Enron for lakes of water instead of lakes of fire any day.

Regulation can be good, regulation can be bad, how you do it matters far more.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by TylerE on Monday May 11, 2020 @10:30PM (#23149978)
I'm not saying it's a bad thing - just that I don't trust it to cover my ass.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by arcticbull on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @05:55PM (#23160435)
I trust it to keep the rivers from catching fire, and planes from falling out of the sky, and the front seat from falling through the bottom of my car.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by product50 on Monday May 11, 2020 @06:31PM (#23147922)
Yeah - everything is fucked so why do anything? Lets just sit here and criticize everything. And that is the life we choose to live.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by TylerE on Monday May 11, 2020 @06:39PM (#23147988)
That's pointlessly reductionist. Just because we can't do perfect means we should look at a steaming pile of dogshit like it's filet mignon.

The short term solution to "everything's fucked" is to stop making it even more fucked.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by dwaltrip on Monday May 11, 2020 @08:40PM (#23149279)
> The short term solution to "everything's fucked" is to stop making it even more fucked.

That's not a solution, that's a vague sentiment.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by product50 on Monday May 11, 2020 @07:31PM (#23148631)
Glad that you are able to figure out the shortcomings in your comments. Be constructive vs. generalizing a few negative examples and taking a defeatist attitude to things.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by qotgalaxy on Monday May 11, 2020 @11:37PM (#23150364)
Are you arguing with yourself?
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by chrischen on Monday May 11, 2020 @06:01PM (#23147619)
Bitcoin is the preferred payment method of extortionists and criminals world-wide. Accepted everywhere cash is. So yes, it has had a legitimately illegitimate use case.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by toomim on Monday May 11, 2020 @06:41PM (#23147998)
No it's not. That's a common misconception, but the studies show that USD is used about 100x more than cryptocurrencies for crime. This is because:

1. Criminals don't want their activities to be tracked on a public ledger. Cash is anonymous. Bitcoin is not.

2. Criminals already have money laundering systems in-place, and relationships with corrupt bankers.

3. Cash is accepted at more places. So it's more useful to have.

We're talking trillions of dollars in USD crime here. It's not even close.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by microtherion on Monday May 11, 2020 @07:33PM (#23148654)
> studies show that USD is used about 100x more than cryptocurrencies for crime

That's a massively higher share for cryptocurrencies than in legitimate transactions, isn't it?

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by bb88 on Monday May 11, 2020 @08:03PM (#23148994)
I was curious about that too. The US Treasury thinks that $300bn is laundered every year. Then ciphertrace thinks $2.5bn is laundered through crypto currencies.

While BTC is tracked between wallets and that's easily measured, it's unclear how to measure wallets being transferred between people.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by FireBeyond on Monday May 11, 2020 @09:54PM (#23149744)
> but the studies show that USD is used about 100x more than cryptocurrencies for crime.

That's awkward, given that:

* "All the bitcoins in the world [are] worth roughly $160.4 billion" - Investopedia

* USD M2 (2018): $16.1T - https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/money-supply-m2

So really, BTC is used at least as much, relatively speaking, for crime, as USD.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by splintercell on Monday May 11, 2020 @11:37PM (#23150363)
But does it show that bitcoin is the preferred method for crime?
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by bb88 on Monday May 11, 2020 @07:50PM (#23148834)
> Cash is anonymous. Bitcoin is not.

There's a non zero chance that your criminal extortion scheme won't end up with bill serial numbers tracked by federal authorities. Hence that's probably why 97% of ransomware uses BTC.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by fidelramos on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @04:54AM (#23151878)
> Hence that's probably why 97% of ransomware uses BTC.

What payment processor would ransomware use? Credit card processors would close their account. Nobody can close your Bitcoin account. That can be used for crime, but also is a legitimate protection against the abuses of governments and banks.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by chrischen on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @05:18AM (#23152031)
That’s why Bitcoin has this legitimate use. No one will service ransomware businesses.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by fidelramos on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @05:59AM (#23152284)
And as I said that's a consequence of Bitcoin's decentralization and censorship resistance. I think the positive aspects of those features overshadow the negative.
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by mirimir on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @02:29AM (#23151073)
That's quite the endorsement, there.

Before Bitcoin, they were using stuff like Walmart giftcards.

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by IncRnd on Monday May 11, 2020 @09:54PM (#23149745)
Since criminals don't want their activities to be tracked on a public ledger, how did these studies (plural) get performed with any accuracy?
Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by arcticbull on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @12:31AM (#23150600)
Not all criminals are masterminds like Satoshi... or should I say... Paul "Solotshi" Calder Le Roux. [1]

[1] https://www.wired.com/story/was-bitcoin-created-by-this-inte...

Re:Bitcoin Halving Just Occured by chrischen on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @05:16AM (#23152014)
I was specifically talking about online criminals (online drugs, hackers, etc).