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Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by eightysixfour on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:14PM (#23012133)
This situation has presented an incredible opportunity to flip the education paradigm around and we are missing it. In my opinion, there are two different opportunities that should be explored:

1. Using the "best" teachers from the school district to provide lectures for every student taking that course while the other teachers provide TA-esque support to the students in their "section." If a student is struggling with homework or to understand the lecture, they can go into a video breakout room and get 1:1 support without interrupting others.

2. Education has been focused on in-person lectures with home "work" for decades. Given the current situation, it seems to make the most sense to provide offline/prerecorded lectures and to use the class time to support the students with direct help for their work. Students can listen to a lecture without a live teacher, they cannot ask questions about their work without one.

Are their holes in both of these? Sure. Are they as bad as just moving the existing paradigm online? I don't think so.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by kaitai on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @10:05PM (#23014491)
I taught master's courses in a mathematical topic for five years, running in-person and online courses in parallel. Online learners in my course were highly motivated, paying a sh&*-ton of money for a degree that could vault them into a higher-paying job. They all had a bachelors degree in a STEM subject. Online learners still performed measurably worse in the course than in-person learners.

We have the "best" teachers already providing materials: they're in books. You can go read Kolmogorov's probability books, you can read the Feynman lectures on physics. You can even listen to the Great Courses and learn whatever the bleep you want there. And do you? Do even adults have, as a group, the discipline, attention, and stamina to self-teach like this? No.

I call it self-teaching for a reason. When I taught, I looked into students' eyes and on their papers. I walked around the room. I had them present on the board. I prodded them to discuss ideas and argue with each other. I made mistakes writing proofs or calculations on the board and made students catch them, even -- yes, this is a skill math profs practice, because it's inevitable and recovering from the fall with grace is a learned skill! Every class in person was an interactive intellectual wrestling match. Video is just not the same. Interrupting others with your questions and discussion is vital to learning.

I'm so glad I'm no longer in the classroom, frankly. Sigh.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by belorn on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @05:24AM (#23017147)
> We have the "best" teachers already providing materials: they're in books

The best teachers are those that can induce pro-learning behavior in others, and books are a good medium to learn from once induced but quite poor in inducing the necessary behavior by itself. Videos are usually better than books, but tend to fall behind compared to the best in-person teachers.

That said, no school is actually teaching people how to trigger pro-learning behavior in themselves. It is always assumed that either students learn it as a side product from all the other classes, or it is the responsibility of the teacher. That in my view what is missing from the picture when we a transitioning away from in-person education system into a online system.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by rsfern on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @07:37AM (#23017967)
I took an evidence-based teaching course in grad school, and one of the things that really stuck with me was this idea that teaching should be continually framed around clear learning goals and a growth-oriented mindset.

I think a clear value proposition is something that’s really lacking for students at all levels. I remember a lot of vague “you’ll need this later” sentiment from my time in school, which is just not motivating.

That and counteracting the “I’m just not good at math (or whatever subject)” mentality would go a long way to addressing this self-learning issue

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by cloudier on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @12:52PM (#23021323)
This is something I’m interested in. What did the course cover — things like active and passive learning, and constructionism? Does the book Ultralearning cover most of the same things? (Here is a summary: https://www.njlifehacks.com/ultralearning-by-scott-young-boo...)
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by rsfern on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:58PM (#23022137)
The course is CMU’s 38-801 (evidence based teaching in STEM). I don’t think there is a course website, but CMU’s course design page has a pretty good overview of the material covered [0]. It was a cool project-based course that covered a lot of different teaching methods (including active learning), assessment and feedback, and course design. A lot of this was motivated by primary teaching and learning literature. We also read through this book [1], which I found pretty interesting.

The learning principles in the summary you linked are also major themes we covered in the course, but I think the emphasis is a bit different because the 38-801 audience is primarily future educators (who are of course also lifelong learners)

0: https://www.cmu.edu/teaching/designteach/index.html 1: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3557656/

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by derefr on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @08:39PM (#23026288)
Proper teaching looks less like what most teachers do, and more like what (good) game designers do.

• Hide the tutorial for the problem, in the "shape" of the problem, so the student won't even realize they're being taught something. (See e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH2wGpEZVgE)

• Make the student/player feel a need for a new tool, before the tool is introduced. Have them try (and perhaps fail) to solve the problem without the tool first. (See the "keys and doors" discussion in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouO1R6vFDBo&list=PLc38fcMFcV...)

• For each new concept, present its lesson as a series of spaced-chunk challenges, where each chunk ramps the difficulty up to a climax and then down again to a gentle denouement. Give the learner's mind a chance to feel a sense of mastery over already-understood concepts, not just the continual stress of new challenges. (See https://boingboing.net/2015/09/14/super-mario-maker-levels.h... or http://gameshelf.jmac.org/2011/12/a-pleasant-journey-through...)

• Gate problems behind proof of mastery of previous micro-skills, not just in the form of obvious tests, but also in the form of multi-step problems for new knowledge which can't even be approached without also having another prerequisite skill. Ensure that it becomes impossible to "leave behind" a foundational skill—i.e. ensure that the learner will get stuck without the new tool, and so realize they need to backtrack to pick up that tool, rather than flailing uselessly at the next problem.

• Meter and visualize progress. Map acquisition of micro-skills directly to some sort of measurement the student can look at (a level number; a tech tree; a skill grid), to feel that they're making progress. Ensure the system is designed such that this number goes up not just when they make progress on new skills, but also when they go back to shore up their knowledge of old skills.

Etc.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by michaelt on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @06:24AM (#23017533)
Plenty of schools and colleges include a 'study skills' class. It's just usually in a 'general studies' class and focuses on mnemonics and mind-maps.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by chosenbreed37 on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @06:49AM (#23017679)
I wonder if the pro-learning behaviour previously mentioned is something qualitatively different from the study skills. I mean study skills offer the mechanics for studying better. But I guess what we're looking is for something that triggers a desire/willingness to learn. I imagine that most people who have completed high school or even undergraduate courses must have experienced this at some point at some level for some subject matters. Whatever we call it, once this has been activated it becomes easier for the student to successfully direct their own learning to some extent.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by swiley on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @07:19AM (#23017865)
Idk I’ve always felt like the “study skills” classes where just a way to extract money from freshmen without having to teach anything.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by JackeJR on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:15AM (#23015628)
My experience in learning math is that the textbooks try to provide what is right. And what is right typically becomes excessively verbose to the point that the main idea gets lost in the rightness. This is what in person coaching gets you. You get the intuition of the idea, ignoring all the nitty gritty and only when you have a firm grasp of the intuition do you explore what this intuition also means for different cases and hence the nitty gritties.

Having experienced this myself many times over, I now know exactly what to look for in a book when I am self learning. I don't know how this skill is to be taught but if remote learning was to succeed, different methods of learning needs to be outlined and taught to the students and get them to learn to select one appropriate for their learning styles and subject.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by jmiserez on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @04:18AM (#23016736)
The issue is that those are usually two separate books. Students need intuition and a broader overview, but experienced professionals usually want rigor, unambiguity and completeness. In my experience there are actually very few books that do both, and I've also had professors that don't seem to find it too important to convey intuition (or even think it's counterproductive as intuition breaks down at some point).
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by swiley on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @07:24AM (#23017894)
IMO: as long as they’re organized well verbosity is good. Ever tried to read a theology book? They’re just walls of text, no nice theorem: and def: to guide you; that’s when verbosity makes things hard. On the other hand very concise books that force you to think in order to pull meaning out of them can be a lot of fun if you have the time.

Also (another opinion) you get intuition doing practice problems and playing with the idea(s), it’s almost impossible to get intuition just by reading.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by throwaway_pdp09 on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @07:35AM (#23017957)
When I meet verbosity in non-fiction books I get suspicious that it's there to conceal something, not reveal.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by raister on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:13AM (#23015618)
I understand you. All the long ours in preparation, planning, interacting, evaluating, and for me, the compensation for all that was quite ridiculous to tell you the truth. Students only interested in the course's diploma, asking questions like 'why am I seeing this?', 'how to apply this in the real world', 'give me a practical example in your practice' (knowing that I was only a lecturer, not a practitioner in the field, the list goes on and on. I don't miss being on classes - what I miss is interacting with good smart students, to tell you the truth. They were the ones I target my efforts. Your reason may be other, mine was this.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by mbrameld on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @11:49PM (#23015116)
Were those online classes purely asynchronous or was there a teleconference some number of times per week? I wonder if the difference in performance is due to accountability. It's easy to slack off when you don't have to look the teacher in the eyes and explain why you didn't do what you were supposed to do.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by kayoone on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @12:04AM (#23015223)
Interesting, but why are you glad it’s over? Too intense?
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by kaitai on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @12:18PM (#23020933)
A couple reasons: with the probable decline in numbers of students (particularly international students) I see furloughs and firings in the future at my former university. Pay cuts and furloughs are coming in my industry as well, but because the base pay is higher, there is farther to fall -- and I mean that in a good way, because I'm still living as if I made half my salary.

But more than that, the part I actually liked about teaching was that person-to-person engagement. The arguments, the exploring, the discovery. Seeing people (students) rise to challenges and do things they didn't think they could do. I've done a lot of online teaching, and certainly some of that can happen, but especially with struggling students -- they just don't log on. They slip away. At least if someone's sitting in your classroom you can provoke them or cajole them or charm them into a reaction that you can tease into engagement.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by Melting_Harps on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @02:44AM (#23016138)
> I taught master's courses in a mathematical topic for five years, running in-person and online courses in parallel. Online learners in my course were highly motivated, paying a sh&*-ton of money for a degree that could vault them into a higher-paying job. They all had a bachelors degree in a STEM subject. Online learners still performed measurably worse in the course than in-person learners.

Interesting. I'm currently taking a Course through Rutger's University Online, and so far I and most in my class are also weeks ahead of schedule, and are just awaiting grading on our final projects. As for my grade on it: mine was based on an actual project I did while I was at BMW so I documented the entire process. I used it to get promoted and sent back to VW as I thought I was a better fit there so its well detailed and I got sent back in a month after, so it worked.

> I call it self-teaching for a reason.

I'm a big proponent of home schooling and online learning. I'm an autodidactic person, so I just took notes of what would be on the exam and tried my best to incorporate it when I studied at hoome and tried to find usecases to relearn it later and how I would actually understand it for future use. Its how I learned calculus, my last math class, after failing algebra because I tried doing everything the instructor's way in class--I had to go everyday to get the first failure dropped from my GPA.

To be honest, this is why I never did well in school for things that mattered on paper: I often got Bs and Cs most years and I was always told I was being an underachiever with much higher potential. The truth is I just realized that Schooling and Education are two very different things and the former did very little provided I landed a job in my career.

The classes I often got As in I just didn't care and repeated whatever the instructor said back to them or told them what they wanted to hear. Rote learning is a poor way to instruct, but it scales so they do it.

To this day I can still recall all of my essential amino acids, their molecular structures, most functional groups reactivity and about 50 reaction mechanisms and can explain them in depth because I found utility in them for my career within the laboratory: I graduated 11 years ago. Whereas when I went to office hours back then most of my peers found it hard to do that from semester to semester. I was a Cell/Molecular Biologist (that's where most of the jobs were) but excelled at Biochemistry and Microbiology because that's where my interests were but you probably couldn't tell from most of my grades. When I went into the Industry is when I really shined.

I think Online learning appeals most to people who have had an independent educational development environment, and thrive within it. I never took honors classes in school or university but in HS I was recommended for a few so was made to sit in them for a week and left as it looked like a hassle (the instructors heavily grade on class participation) only to find out later that they did that to weed the herd and the teacher often gave lots of time for independent learning to my dismay.

> I'm so glad I'm no longer in the classroom, frankly. Sigh.

I think the only two professors, or teachers for that matter, that I ever liked and enjoyed speaking with iwere grinding away to be able to say the same one day.

They did it because it was pre-requisite for funding their lab/research and tenure, none of them seemed to like it very much but they were awesome at it despite that because they approached the material from an Industry perspective and often went against conventional wisdom. I still my remember Chemistry professor eating his lunch and going over certain reactions on the dry board and then going to the teacher's protest afterward to try and get back pay for teaching back-back summer courses during the budget/strike days in the CSU/UC system... I wrote on my class evaluation that 'this University does not deserve him.'

And I meant it, too, he went to Oxford for his BSc and Edinburgh for his PhD and post doc, I just thought what a waste... but he later told me in private over some drinks its because his wife taught there with tenure and his kids didn't want to leave CA so he turned down offers before the financial crises so afterward he was stuck. I hope he is well.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by kilroy_jones on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:55PM (#23012618)
Younger students (K-12) need interaction with other students and their teachers, not lectures. I teach some of the most motivated and diligent students you could ask for, but after 3 weeks of online learning they were burnt out.

To further compound the issue, in many places students don't have reliable internet access or a decent computer.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by yay_cloud2 on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @07:16PM (#23013312)
This has been my son's experience as well (Grade 4). We are on week 6 of home-school, and by far the thing that energizes him, lifts his mood, and gets him through his work is any interactions at all with his fellow students.

Most of his classmates are too young to have strong bonds outside of the structure of school, so (I think) school needs to accept the power of these bonds and facilitate social interaction between kids. De-prioritize the output, and prioritize the process of learning things together.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by WillPostForFood on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @07:26PM (#23013388)
Most of his classmates are too young to have strong bonds outside of the structure of school

It is unfortunate, and a poor reflection on modern culture that 4th grade is too young to form strong bonds outside of school. Kids are missing the after school unstructured free/play time. Decades later, I'm sill best friends with kids I went to school with in 4th grade.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by Wowfunhappy on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @07:48PM (#23013567)
It's not exactly like the kids could all go out and play together right now.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by irishcoffee on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @07:58PM (#23013631)
My kids do.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by sjg007 on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @08:11PM (#23013733)
I mean you are taking a risk here. But even then some of us don't have the option here.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by vl on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @04:44AM (#23016886)
No, of course it’s much better to traumatize kids by unreasonable many-month isolation. This will make them well-adjusted adults for sure.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by irishcoffee on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @09:00PM (#23014080)
I don’t go anywhere and my kids don’t leave the street. “Sorry kids you can’t go outside for the next 3 months. I’ll keep the windows clean for you so you can look.” Tantamount to child torture.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by anoncareer0212 on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @10:16PM (#23014552)
Not sure what you mean, I think y'all might be talking past eachother: poster is saying they can't exactly go play outside with the neighbors right now, which is obviously true, if kids in the neighborhood are running around together, we'd just be building really efficient viral transmission chains
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by m_mueller on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:42AM (#23015780)
This is an assumption of yours for which there's insufficient evidence. Or even the evidence is currently rather pointing the other way. What I have is anecdotal evidence from here in Switzerland - adults generally keep distance while children in the neighborhood generally play with each other. We currently are down to ~120 new cases a day across Switzerland, hospitalization taken a sharp downturn and has never exceeded capacity.

It's all a game of numbers - sure, there will be some transmissions if you let children play together in open spaces, but overall, from what current data suggests, it's not a significant vector. We generally have to think like this now, there's no such thing as absolute safety and we really have to think hard about what should be restricted and what negative effects this will have long term. Isolating kids at home for months is IMO not worth it.

On a different note, neither is allowing small businesses to fail in droves even if they can provide a good hygiene concept. Switzerland has also opened up hairdressers since this week - with masks, hand sanitizing and contact tracing being mandatory for everyone. We'll see in a couple of weeks whether this works or not.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by vinay427 on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @04:47AM (#23016915)
Another anecdote: Where I am in Switzerland, it's rather unusual to see kids playing together right now (except for presumably siblings). I can see a bit of a school playground from my home and the groups that visit have really dwindled over the past few months and it hasn't rebounded yet. There are usually only 1-2 kids playing at a time.

Adults more or less try to maintain distances, as you said.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by m_mueller on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @05:17AM (#23017102)
it's definitely down from normal numbers of kids playing here. but those parents who allow going to playgrounds are usually OK if kids play with some distance. what I found works well is ball passing with soccer - no touch needed. badminton is also reasonable safe distance. with 'neighborhood' I meant the immediate housing project here, we have a couple of boys who are inseparable and I find the risk tolerable if those same kids play together daily. Should be simple to trace also in case the housing gets cases.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by sjg007 on Thursday April 30, 2020 @06:35PM (#23037027)
Kids are known viral factories. They tend to have higher viral loads despite not getting as sick. This is one reason we have school breaks in the winter and spring, basically to cut down transmission chains.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by irishcoffee on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @10:47PM (#23014742)
The crux of the conversation is: either everyone is going to catch this because of how contagious it is, or we all stay home for ~1-1.5 years until a vaccine is widely distributed. There isn't much of a middle ground.

Everyone will catch this. To think otherwise is folly. Our intrepid leaders have had between 4-6 weeks to sort things out. Hope they did.

My kids can go play outside. This is getting absurd.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by fountainofage on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @11:16PM (#23014923)
I don't think any reputable person has claimed an attempt to stop everyone from catching this. The mantra is "flattening the curve." It's been that since the beginning. We don't want to overwhelm the healthcare system like what has happened and is happening in Italy.

And shelter in place with strong social distancing has proven to be the most effective way to slow the spread of the virus given the current testing capacity and lack of contact tracing.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by irishcoffee on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @09:09PM (#23026450)
Yes I agree, flatten the curve. Then what? We social distance for a year or two? The world economy goes to hell? Can’t buy a pork chop? All because boomers stuck their parents in nursing homes?

This is bullshit.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by sjg007 on Thursday April 30, 2020 @06:40PM (#23037073)
Nah, food processors will need to come up with ways to physically distance with screening or otherwise provide PPE. Those jobs will suck and there won't be any socialization in lunch/break rooms but it will be necessary.

We will learn more during this time about how the virus works and how to treat it as well. Hopefully that knowledge will help us exit faster but we should expect this to be a long term new normal.

Travel and tourism is definitely going to take a bigger and continued hit. But there might be ways to make it work.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by rorykoehler on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @05:21AM (#23017126)
The idea is that everyone doesn't catch it at the same time, not that they don't catch it at all.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by vl on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @04:41AM (#23016863)
To everyone paranoidly sitting is strong isolation I’m saying “What is your exit strategy? The virus is not going away, there will be no vaccine for many months. Are you planning on sitting it out for a year? Two? Ten? If not, you might as well go on with your life while taking reasonable precautions and practicing hygiene.”
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by ben_w on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @06:37AM (#23017613)
I don’t think paranoia means what I think you think it means.

Like most people on the site, I am well adapted to the conditions forced upon us by this pandemic.

What I can’t do is go travelling, what with the airports being closed to tourists, the hotels being closed, and the airlines cancelling any flights other than repatriations, etc. — and I can’t go to local museums, because they’re closed.

I can’t go to a pub to hang out with local furries, because the pub is closed. I probably can’t go to the large furry convention that was going to happen later this year in my city, because the hotel it would be held in is currently being used as a pop-up hospital. Even if I got around the airport problems by learning to fly (I have the money and time for lessons but not for a plane), I couldn’t go to any other cons instead because their hotels have also been converted into pop-up hospitals.

I can go for walks, but I can’t go to any parks, because they’re closed.

I’m also not comfortable with selling my old home in the UK and buying a new one in Berlin — but that’s not because of risk to me, it’s because of the situation in the UK. It’s not really a “hobby”, but it is something I had planned to do and have put off because of this.

I’m not into music or dancing or spectator sports, but those are big parts of most people’s lives — now impossible because their venues are closed.

The only thing I can do is walking (on sidewalks), passive a/v entertainment, MOOCs/etc, and video games.

Suits me, but if it didn’t, there wouldn’t be anything I could do about it.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by meheleventyone on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @06:06AM (#23017418)
It's not an either or situation where one size will fit all is it?

If you live in an area that's a hotspot then you need to have tighter restrictions than if not. If you know you're in an at-risk group then you need to have tighter restrictions.

Our restrictions and daily routines are naturally going to have to shift about as the virus ebbs and flows. Which is why a good local testing and contact tracing regime is essential to end the most draconian lockdowns. If you don't even know how the virus is distributed locally and can't quickly act to quarantine people who have been in contact with someone who is infected then it's very hard to say mingling together is a great idea. That said the risks of kids playing together in a neighborhood seem pretty minor if otherwise people are keeping to themselves. The likely negative consequence is that if one family has a member that tests positive then all the others in the neighborhood will need to quarantine until they can be tested or enough time passes. Here that's 14 days if you're not symptomatic or 7 days after the symptoms go if you are. Then the less likely consequence is that you're the vector that passes on the infection and it kills one of your neighbors.

We're relaxing our restrictions here a bit in Iceland on Monday and I'm really interested to see how that goes.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by smileysteve on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:26AM (#23015678)
> Everyone will catch this. To think otherwise is folly.

I have my hopes, if not at least until Winter.

Luckily, I have hobbies that are easily done without large groups of people and believe I can avoid groups of 10 or more people for most of summer and probably 50 people until September. (I've not spent more than a few minutes with more than 3 others for the last month and half)

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by vl on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @04:35AM (#23016827)
Ah, covid-shaming on HN. Then they go to Costco in unfitted, unfiltering masks and bring home bunch of packages, pretending they avoided “social contact”.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by irrational on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @10:53PM (#23014773)
It's not that simple. We live in a suburban neighborhood. When I was a kid we had tons of kids in the neighborhood I grew up in to play with. Now? My family is the only one in the neighborhood with kids. Their classmates live quite aways away across busy streets. I'd have to drive them to their classmates houses. People just don't have kids like they used to.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by chongli on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @07:53PM (#23013587)
This jumped out at me as well. When I was that age I spent my summers riding my bike and roaming the city with my friends. The thought that kids today are entirely dependent on the structure of school for socialization is incredibly depressing. What have we done to society?
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by lotsofpulp on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @07:58PM (#23013629)
Moved into far flung suburbs separated by 4+ lane roads with large vehicles traveling 50mph+ in order to sequester the kids in the “nicest” neighborhoods so they only have well to do kids in their school.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by pfranz on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @11:35PM (#23015038)
The parent is one data point. Perhaps the one kid leans on school for social connections at this point in their life? Some kids are loaners (but still need social connections) others are very social.

Another commenter pointed out that there were only a few school-aged kids in their neighborhood. I noticed when I graduated high school there weren't many younger school-aged kids in my neighborhood even though I grew up with a good number of people nearby. When my sister moved into a newly built neighborhood when they had kids other young families moved in, too. I think neighborhoods tend to cluster with families, it cycles and may not always catch on every generation and some kids get stuck.

Those situations sound incredibly depressing, but I don't think it necessarily reflects all of society.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by BryanBigs on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @06:54AM (#23017724)
Well, sports.

In my area, kids on the B team in FIFTH GRADE play over 55 basketball games a season.

That's more than any college.

It's the same lunacy for hockey, baseball, etc.

They get social interaction from the team, sure. But it's no longer a seasonal thing. It's year round and cancels out a lot of play time in the hood.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by JCharante on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @11:13PM (#23014894)
Yeah I'm confused by this. My oldest friend is my friend from 3rd grade who I only play video games with. We weren't ever in the same classroom and I only went over to his house twice. I haven't seen him in years but at most we've only gone a few months without doing something over the past decade+.

Maybe that's because as a child I had unsupervised access to a networked playstation and a computer. I would have loved to stay at home all day.

As an adult I hate it. When my city opened back up I took up cycling as my only mode of transport because I've taken the feeling of physical exertion for granted.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by watwut on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @02:31AM (#23016074)
Adults dont keep such relationships either.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by koolba on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @07:27PM (#23013393)
No just split the two things entirely. Have an hour of free form video chat to make fun of each other and laugh. The education there is from interacting.

It’s no different than removing sports as a separate subject. You don’t learn math or English running down a track field and you don’t learn how to swimming reading 20000 Leagues Under the Sea.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by eitally on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:13AM (#23015614)
My kid's class has a parent-organized "Zoom recess" three times a week for just this. There's always a volunteer parent moderating/hosting, but it's an oppy for kids to be themselves socially.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by bubbleRefuge on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @06:15PM (#23012797)
Yes, its tough enough to get them to concentrate with all of the electronic stimulants available, and now we are forcing them to spend more time on these electronic platforms. For young people, we need to stimulate their curiosity. They need to see , touch, feel, and experience things in multiple dimensions. They have all this curiosity and energy and we squash it by expecting them to sit and listen to lectures and do worksheets. Experiential learning was falling by the wayside before this crisis, and now that is accelerating.

Living in the 3rd largest school district in America, I'm wondering if secretly ,the administrators are seeing this as an opportunity to get 1 step closer to automating away the teacher so that they can stay within budget constraints and serve more people.

Feels like it is all going the wrong way. We need to flip this narrative: massive federal funding for schools, more teachers, better pay for teachers, better facilities, more field trips, small student to teacher ratios, free tutoring.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by zzedd on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @07:51PM (#23013578)
yes, there is a long history of trying to automate education (largely unsuccessfully). see Larry Cuban's "Teaching and Machines"
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by briandear on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @02:48AM (#23016160)
Remote kindergarten is horrible. It defeats the purpose. The lockdown is causing significant developmental harm to younger kids. Ask anyone with a five year old doing “remote” kindergarten. Even older primary school kids are being significantly stressed. Teaching elementary school via Zoom is insane. The second order effects of these lockdowns are being ignored. We are worried about nursing homes and older co-morbid people but we are literally ignoring the damage being caused to the kids. This isn’t “homeschool,” this is something else entirely and it’s brutal. Kids should be in school and the old and sick should be the ones locked down. Those with special needs as well as the poor are being especially hammered by this. A lot of crucial development happens in younger kids and losing almost half the school year isn’t a trivial thing. The mental health and developmental impacts are being ignored.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by adchari on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @09:53PM (#23014419)
Even as a college student, same. My quality of learning has seriously gone down the hill without the same access to my peers for homework and projects
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by Hextinium on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:12AM (#23015612)
Its not even that I study with other people, it's the "what is he going on about" while in class that I miss the most. I am expecting to drop a full letter grade this semester from my average just from being online.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by fatnoah on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @11:39AM (#23020497)
>Younger students (K-12) need interaction with other students and their teachers, not lectures

My son is the kid who relishes every chance to miss school, but was devastated to find out there would be no more school for the year.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by sjg007 on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @08:10PM (#23013729)
I think high schoolers (so 9th grade onward) could be fairly independent. For sure seniors.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by dorchadas on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @08:57PM (#23014061)
I teach high school, and they're not. Many of them are burnt out and struggling, even with constant teacher availability. They need the interaction and in-person support just as much as younger kids.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by Waterluvian on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:28PM (#23012308)
I'm incredibly skeptical that successful people don't just marginalize those who struggle in school when suggesting what's best. Their brains can't help but perceive the issue based on their own experience.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by analog31 on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @08:50PM (#23014005)
This. The unsuccessful ones simply won't speak up, because they know that they'll get eaten alive on any Internet forum. Or they will talk about education in general terms without mentioning their own kids.

If your kids are struggling, it must be because you are immoral, lazy, have bad "culture," etc. Internet discussions of parenting always devolve into success theater.

But the kids themselves will eventually speak up. If you follow HN for a while, you will also read stories from a surprisingly large number of successful people who had deeply negative experiences in school as kids. I got through high school by pretty much ignoring all of the "content" and doing well enough on exams to get OK grades, plus I had fairly high test scores, and didn't aim too high with my college applications.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by eightysixfour on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:29PM (#23012332)
And I'm sure I do that in some ways (although I struggled in school out of a mixture of boredom at a younger age and not knowing how to study by the time I got to college), but how does option #1 not improve the experience by providing more direct support for those struggling? Can't keep up with the lecture? Ask your group teacher to breakout and support you.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by cactus2093 on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:48PM (#23012523)
That seems like a big over simplification. Speaking for myself as someone who was very much an above-average student, I often thought I was following along fine in the lectures but then when I would go to solve a homework problem or answer a test question, only then would I realize I skipped over some important parts in my understanding. So even the best intentioned students are likely not in a position to diagnose their own understanding of the material, that's what tests and quizzes and homework are for.

And that's not even to mention, any of the students that know they aren't following along, but don't really care and would rather zone out/sit on their phone the whole lecture than get 1:1 help. Do you really expect most students will seek help for themselves?

Perhaps you could modify your plan and say that students who got lower than a B+ or something on a recent quiz are required to attend the breakout group to get help from the teacher, it's not up to them to self-select. But then you're back to... the status quo, that "breakout group" is just the regular classroom. You have one class for the advanced students to go through material quicker, and another class for everyone else. That's already the way many schools are structured.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by snazz on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:38PM (#23012425)
I think the problem is that most kids don’t really care about the material—if they are not understanding it, they’ll do something else during the lecture instead of asking for help. Struggling but trying hard is far more indicative of success than easily passing tests without studying, in my opinion.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by CDSlice on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:38PM (#23012431)
How do you keep the main teacher from getting out of sync with the students in the breakout sections? If a student needs 10 extra minutes with their group teacher to understand what is being taught how do they get caught back up to what the main teacher is covering? The only way I can see this working is if the main lecture is prerecorded, but at that point you just have a normal class except for where the group teacher has to do extra work to understand how the main teacher is explaining things. This may work better, but I'm not sure if it would be a massive improvement.

Furthermore, unless we suddenly hire a lot more teachers each student's group is going to essentially be their normal class and we are back to the whole class being kept back when someone needs extra help. Again, the only difference seems to be the main lecture is performed by someone besides the students' teacher. This could be better if the new teacher really is "world class", but I doubt it will be an extreme improvement.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by abdullahkhalids on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @07:23PM (#23013368)
As a professor, I don't think exclusive online teaching is long term viable for university students let alone school children.

But a pre-recorded lecture is usually much shorter than a live lecture. The one-way communication of a one hour class can usually be condensed into a 10-20 min video recording. This is by using a script that optimizes the time to communicate the information in the best possible way.

The rest of the time should be spent learning by doing or talking to others.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by Waterluvian on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:37PM (#23012411)
Sure, let's talk it out together. So I think that #1 may as well be, "pay the best teachers extra to record their lectures and have them for years to come." Universities do this. It's worthwhile. We should probably do that!

But I'm not sure it replaces anything that exists (I'm not sure you argued this!). A core reason we have teachers and not a TV screen is because they can organically read the room and adjust the lesson plan in real time. That feedback loop is constantly ongoing even if you never noticed it.

I don't want to jump too far through the experiment but I think the conclusion is the same: any good idea is really just, "we need to do more." So if the argument is that we can do more with the same resources, I fear it's because we fail to grok what those resources are actually doing today.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by eightysixfour on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @06:00PM (#23012659)
This assumes I meant the lecture should be prerecorded, I actually thought more of it being live. It presents other issues as other posters have mentioned, such as catching back up after sidebars, but provides the live feedback that increases engagement,
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by sjg007 on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @08:15PM (#23013764)
We totally do. We still have 40% of kids not proficient at grade level, every year. This is despite tons of research into how to teach reading but schools refuse to do it. I mean some are now but it's been at a glacial pace. We have tons of academic research that is not being applied.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by dorchadas on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @09:01PM (#23014084)
And there's tons of academic research that is cherry picked and doesn't hold over in all contexts. And let's not talk about replicability. In all honesty, my experience with "best practices" research is that it's kind of a joke and any author can use it to support any point they want to make, just by tailoring their subjects. And then they assume what works well in, say, inner city Detroit would work just as well in BFE Kentucky, without taking into account any cultural differences, etc. Education research is a joke, in my experience of having to read it repeatedly during my MAT.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by sjg007 on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @12:46PM (#23021243)
I’m taking about reading specifically but I disagree with your conclusions.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by ryanchants on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:23PM (#23012250)
From my personal experience, I do great when I can sit in a classroom and absorb what's being presented. You put the lecturer behind a screen, live or pre-recorded, and I lose most of my ability to stay on track.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by rorykoehler on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @05:32AM (#23017193)
I'm the opposite but that is largely irrelevant. First I'm a fully grown adult with intrinsic motivation. Second school should be more about socialising and hands-on learning which you can't do over Zoom. Though he isn't in school yet I'm very worried about the psychological stress this lockdown is causing my 2 year old. He is definitely not as "free" in his outside world interactions anymore. I hope this is temporary and we can reverse it through gradual rolling back of the restrictions.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by zarkov99 on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:26PM (#23012288)
Does the equation change if you get the best teacher in the world via video vs just an average teacher live?
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by asdff on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:58PM (#23012639)
It doesn't matter for me. In class I'm engaged with my professors. Over zoom I can't seem to get the words to stick in my brain. I have no idea why. I really try to stay engaged in zoom but somehow I can't.

It's not just class too. I forget what I talked about in meetings with colleagues. I talked to people from class and my coworkers about this, and I'm far from alone with these feelings and a lack of focus on zoom. Something to do with the cadence of speech, lack of body language maybe, maybe something deeper and more primal. I thought I would love working from home, now I'm itching to get back just so I can function again.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by ardy42 on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @07:43PM (#23013529)
> Does the equation change if you get the best teacher in the world via video vs just an average teacher live?

That's a really weird way of thinking about it. You're completely ignoring the relational aspect of learning and focusing exclusively on the artifact of a particular presentation of some content. You also seems to be assuming that everyone learns the same way without variation. Commodification and mass production are improvements in a lot of areas, but not all.

I don't think you can rank the teachers of the world from best to worst, when often the best teacher is a good-enough one that understands you.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by zarkov99 on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @09:01PM (#23014083)
Well, sure, I guess. I suppose a great teacher can be a positive influence beyond academics in some ineffable ways. However, as far my kids are concerned, my wife and I can provide the positive influence and the teacher can handle the academics. And that aspect of the teachers job is much more quantifiable and there are definitely people who are much better than others at it.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:44PM (#23012490)
Can't speak for the poster, but for myself it's much easier to pay attention and be present when I have a bit of a push through the simple desire to appear engaged. Otherwise it's easier to zone out.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by zarkov99 on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:55PM (#23012607)
Do you think that perhaps that issue might be alleviated if the lecture is intertwined with interactive quizzes, models, examples, things like that?
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by ardy42 on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @07:57PM (#23013616)
Could you replace your dog with videos of the best dog in the world along with integrated Tamagotchi-style interactive components [1]?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamagotchi

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by zarkov99 on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @08:56PM (#23014054)
I expected different things from my dog and my teacher when I was a kid. I still do today.

Many of my teachers, most even, could have been replaced, with with some gain, by high-quality videos and quizzes.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by intended on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @11:15PM (#23014911)
I think the point being raised is not about the expectations of a dog and a of a teacher.

The point is between a simulacrum of a dog, and an actual living breathing dog with its own wants/needs/spontaneous behavior and personality.

Similarly, the expectations of an actual teacher, vs just self learning with tests.

This issue is captured in Blooms 2 sigma problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_2_sigma_problem

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by wolco on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:08AM (#23015592)
It changes based on the user.

Someone get's hives around dogs. Perhaps the online version is better.

Depends on the need.

I want to learn about all dogs. Online would offer more. I want to learn more about this one dog perhaps locally observing is better.

Depends on the technology at the time.

Online might offer the same experiences locally in the future. VR might give you the chance to meet that dog and interact virtually.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by zarkov99 on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @09:24AM (#23018814)
The difference between a simulacrum of a dog and a dog is important only in the context of what you trying to get out of a relationship with a dog. Similarly the difference between a virtual and real teacher. Since I am trying to get different things out of each the analogy is useless. That is what I was trying to communicate.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:59PM (#23012641)
Possibly? My grades slipped in university once I realized that no one knew my name and no one much cared. Really it's about the interaction with my teacher and the desire to keep from disappointing.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by unishark on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @08:54PM (#23014035)
This definitely works great. If you stop and give them an activity to use what they learned, or just quiz them to test for understanding it forces them to engage with the content and learn far better. This is basic active learning, and doesn't need to be live. Though it can probably work better live (e.g. zoom), say if you pause, then call on students randomly to embarrass the slackers into participating.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by threatofrain on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @06:53PM (#23013094)
I don't know the difference between the world's best and very good, but Khan Academy is very good and teachers have already been turning their students onto it as supplemental education. We always had the ability to throw kids onto Khan Academy.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by eitally on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:18AM (#23015639)
No,because in order for it to make a difference the student needs to be in a mental state for it to make said difference. It's just too hard for many kids to get motivated to self-teach, especially with no practical experience.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by Ididntdothis on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:44PM (#23012486)
For me the answer is “no”. I can’t do video learning without getting distracted quickly.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by DoreenMichele on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @06:01PM (#23012665)
This (plus at least one other here, so it's not really "just you") makes me wonder if you/some people who find this problematic have an issue like central auditory processing disorder.

People with CAPD are often dependent to a high degree on lip reading and video feed may disrupt the connection between words and mouth movements just enough to inject too much noise into the signal. If you don't realize this is what you are doing, you can't readily compensate when it gets disrupted.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by eightysixfour on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:57PM (#23012628)
In this situation we are forced to use distance learning, I’m not saying these ideas should carry over to “normal” times, only that the situation presents an incredible opportunity for testing other methods.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by mikekchar on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @08:51PM (#23014009)
I worked for 5 years as an "assistant language teacher" (ALT) in Japan. The idea is that you have the normal teacher teaching the class and an ALT who assists. At its worst you end up with the teacher lecturing and the ALT reading things out of the textbook. However at its best you have this awesome tag-team where one person is guiding the class and the other is spotting confused faces and fixing problems before they get big.

The main problem with this approach is that teachers are generally not used to working cooperatively. They have their "way" and they don't like to deviate from that "way". As odd as it sounds teachers also don't like being observed in the classroom. Teaching is incredibly difficult (by far the most difficult job I've ever attempted to do). The constraints you usually have to work with also mean that failure in at least some forms is inevitable (or to put it another way -- failure is the norm and you take your successes where you can get them). Because of this teachers are often incredibly defensive about how they approach tasks and decisions that they make. As much as I hate it, it is completely usual in my experience that teachers obfuscate what's going on in the classroom. Having other teachers present is really challenging for most teachers that I've encountered.

I honestly believe that team teaching is the way to go, but there are a lot of hurdles that you need to deal with before you can get there. The technology is not really the stumbling block. It's much more the social dynamic and the need for realistic and sensitive teacher evaluation methods. With some students you can literally just lock them in a room and they will learn the material. With other students, it doesn't matter how good the teacher is, they will just refuse to learn (for a huge variety of reasons -- medical, physical, psychological, etc... things that no teacher is realistically able to cope with). Quite a few teachers have realised that they can game the system by simply filtering the students by how easy they are to teach. And because teaching is a very stable job with a reasonable income, you are always going to get a fair number of people who are more interested in gaming the system than teaching stuff. And as is usual in large organisations, people who are good at gaming the system and have no interest in the technical side of the job tend to rise to the top of the decision making ranks. It's quite a difficult problem to solve.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by sopooneo on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:47AM (#23015803)
I taught in Boston for five years. Something that almost no one outside the profession seems to understand is that a teacher's number one function is to inspire students to work. For the vast majority of students, that requires physical proximity to their teacher.

If all it took was the best lecturers, we could have been doing perfect distance learning since 1982 via UPS and VHS.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by hysan on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @11:45PM (#23015096)
FYI, the second suggestion you list is flipping the classroom and some teachers already do this. The first option is something that does happen in multi-teacher classrooms (in my experience teaching in Japan; unsure about the US).

As for holes - Without thinking too deeply, the main issues I see with breakout sessions and student support in an online environment are:

1. Not being able to see how students are working and struggling requires that students themselves be proactive in seeking help. However, not all schools push students to behave this way nor are all students capable of realizing when they are stuck or going too far down the wrong path.

2. Lower income students are automatically ruled out and/or have a far less optimal experience. The longer remote learning runs with this type of divide, the larger the education gap becomes.

I agree. A huge chance is being missed. However, this opportunity has been missed for a long time already. The pandemic is just making this painfully obvious now.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by e12e on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @07:06AM (#23017796)
Schools is about keeping kids and adolescents out of trouble, and free up parents to work. Ideally they also help with development and socialization, and as a bonus - might teach something.

This is very different from colleges - that generally actually focus on teaching stuff (which means students do all the important work themselves).

All the important roles of primary school are hard to accommodate via remote setup.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by themodelplumber on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @10:46PM (#23014736)
Hard to take advantage of opportunities when you are treading water. Teachers have met with incredibly frustrating wall after wall, trying to apply tech, trying to adapt to new conditions in which parents are giving their kids unlimited vacation, yet they are expected to keep a spreadsheet of contacts with children... There's a lot of uphill here right up front.

The main upside is that when people can finally take a breather at the end of this, I'm sure that at _that_ point more people can realistically regroup and be creative moving forward.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by adelHBN on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @12:16AM (#23015294)
---"Using the "best" teachers from the school district to provide lectures for every student taking that course"

While theoretically this sounds good, it doesn't work in practice. Kids, espcially young ones (I have a 2nd grader), need that personal interaction with their teacher. Schools are already overwhelmed with the teacher to student ratio. Imporsonalizing this interaction will only worsen an already bad situation.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by wolco on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @12:49AM (#23015499)
Wouldn't they get familiar with their new online teachers pretty quickly?

Local teachers would provide the personal interaction during work periods where kids come online and get help.

Grade 2 and younger are already learning through tv. Big Bird is rarely in person but kids know and learn from him. Is Barney still around? The Wiggles? Those top performs seem to hold attention as well as the local puppet show.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by sailfast on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @12:34AM (#23015397)
This doesn't work for a young child on their own (think grade school) but it might (intriguing model that I haven't seen yet) work with smaller groups of kids learning together - say, all the first graders on your block at somebody's house with limited exposure to others.

That said, all of this still requires a fully engaged adult in the room to monitor interactions and help things stay on track and answer questions. My wife plans a full curriculum for all our kids together each day with breakout sessions for grade-appropriate subjects. This has been basically interrupted by the current official video curriculum of our school system - and our system is doing better than most on this subject. I have the luxury of an adult available to teach most of the day. Many do not. But I still want to yank my kids out of official "school" and get homeschooling certified until this ends. It burns you out. I'd welcome the schools closing officially now, and offering optional assignments to pass the time for parents that want to use them but that's not really equitable, it just works best for me.

A video conference is great but it can't help keep a virtual classroom engaged and flow with the kids' questions as well as an in-person room. There just isn't enough bandwidth.

Experience: currently three gradeschool and younger in my house.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by eitally on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:17AM (#23015633)
This is my experience, too, and I don't have an fully engaged adult able to help. The kids can obviously move 2-5x faster than they do during normal school, but doing so absolutely requires an engaged adult. There are just too many things an elementary aged kid doesn't have experience with yet for them to be able to solve their own problems (or stay focused).

My 5th grader got reprimanded today for spending 30min on fonts & colors on an essay that itself only took 30min... as a simple example. Another example: I regularly have to prevent both kids from accessing Youtube during school time.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by abetterday on Thursday April 30, 2020 @07:43PM (#23037578)
Totally. We were making massive amounts of progress on our own and virtual school curriculum mostly gets in the way. We've largely stopped going to the video sessions and are just doing some of the school work on top of our own. Thankfully the teacher has been accommodating / letting it go so far and the school work itself has been minor.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by jonahbenton on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @09:26PM (#23014246)
With all respect, I used to work in EdTech and had thoughts about Ed exactly like this- before I had 3 kids and got involved in the local public school, sat on the PTA, raised funds, won elected office on the school board and dealt with issues at the policy level.

There is some merit to pursuing these ideas at the paradigm level for various kinds of post-secondary level education, and of course it is already happening- though still poorly.

Before that level- basically before the age of 25- about 1% of what we call "education" consists of "teaching"- having a source of truth utter statements around the intellectual architecture of various "subjects" that we have constructed and partitioned over the long years of human civilization, with varying levels of inspiration and motivation.

That "paradigm" that ideas like these hope to transform- that really is at most only 1% of what education is for the under-25s.

What's the 99%? Mimic-ing, copying, replaying, performing, processing, engaging. School is an elaborate community improv performance, staffed at best with performers whose skills are measured in EQ, not IQ. I regularly witness school staff plan the model of their interactions with the kids down to the minute, down to the second- tho just the model. The actual performance is spontaneous. It is theater. Yes, there is a curriculum, and homework, and grades, and so forth. Those are all part of the act.

There are no "best" teachers. There are only an uncountable myriad of 1-1 relationships and engagements, each of which represents a full spectrum human interaction possibility (only a fraction of the potential of which of course is ever fulfilled). And though I love "work" and do a lot of it and have my kids do a lot of it- that also is just performative. The goal isn't to complete the assignments in an intellectual progression. No. It is in service of developing behavioral- awareness of self- and emotional- empathetic, sympathetic, awareness of others- tools to engage in the world.

Not to put too high a gloss on it, but in digital terms an orchestrated ChatRoulette is a closer approximation to what actually happens in an education context than the Yale lectures and homework helper.

And there is simply no substitute for the all too real, full spectrum chemistry that develops when people are in physical space together.

So changing the digital teaching paradigm is essentially meaningless. And "remote learning" is about the worst oxymoron.

The best thing we can do at a policy level is provide financial liquidity so that parents can afford to devote their full attention to their children, while we are in this phase where that is required.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by TheHegemon on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:35PM (#23012398)
This may work for older people but my experience is that for kids that would be next to useless.

Most of the time spent is just trying to keep the kids on task not actually spent trying to teach.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @07:25AM (#23017899)
Why do you believe, or what evidence do you have, for elementary educators spending most of their time keeping children on task? I have asked elementary teachers about this trope and pleasantly surprised to learn that most students do not require constant redirection. Likewise, their classes not much different from higher level classes excepting for the rigor of the subject matter. So, I'd love to read any evidence you have for your statement in case these teachers and their schools were an exception instead of the norm.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by dpflan on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:38PM (#23012420)
Perhaps it can start in high school. I completely agree that there is a developmental caveat here that makes the approach a no-go for younger students.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by dpflan on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:51PM (#23012560)
Maybe the model can scale with high schoolers helping with younger students. Remote montessori?
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by asdff on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @06:02PM (#23012677)
Between homework, sports, and working nights, high school me would be hard pressed to find the time to be a chegg tutor for the school district.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by musicale on Thursday April 30, 2020 @09:52PM (#23038373)
I've this "inverted classroom" approach work well, although it can have problems also; if the course isn't self-paced (which I think is much better) you have to make really sure that students aren't overloaded with video lectures, because it's easy to "fall behind." It can't be an excuse for instructors to cram more stuff into an already packed course.

Some other things I've seen and experienced that have seemed to work well and that I'd like to see more of:

- course staff who serve primarily as advisors and guides to provide and help students find, discover and use resources for self-directed learning and to help when students encounter difficulties

- schools that helped students buy cheap paperback books for recreational reading

- scaled out peer tutoring, where the school pays students who have taken a course to tutor students who are currently taking the course

- self-paced learning without harsh penalties for "falling behind" other students or an arbitrary course schedule

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by tssva on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @08:03PM (#23013677)
What do you do when a significant number of students can't view the video lecture or participate in video breakout rooms for 1:1 support because they lack access to the internet?

This isn't just an issue for those of limited financial means. There are areas where internet access is not available for any price or the cost for internet access to support regular viewing of video classroom content would run into the hundreds of dollars per month.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by wolco on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:18AM (#23015641)
You provide them access for free. That how it working locally here.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by sjg007 on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @08:12PM (#23013744)
Yeah this is a big problem.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by eitally on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:10AM (#23015602)
per your #1, my school district is doing that. One designated teacher [per grade, per subject] is recording lectures that are posted to a central repository. this content is assigned out, along with supplementary work, via Google Classroom at the class level. Each class teacher, then, schedules their own class video meetings to "check-in" and offer support for students who need it.

My experience thus far, having 3rd and 5th graders at home, is that remote math learning is a piece of cake and the quarantine experience has really illuminated for me how slowly public schools move. It has also clearly demonstrated that teacher language arts & writing requires 1) skills I don't have, and 2) direct interaction with a competent instructor.

Note, too, that not all teachers have adequate internet access at home to effectively teach remotely. My 5th grader's teacher is quite rural and has 5mbps down, 1mbps up internet service. She can barely participate in online meetings and cannot effectively upload any video content.

#2: 100% agree, but some classes lend themselves this more readily than others.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by briandear on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @02:38AM (#23016112)
Doesn’t work particularly well with early primary school kids though. Interactivity is a big part of learning and that’s close to impossible remotely.

The flipped classroom concept itself is nothing new. My issue is with the “remote” part of that. There is value in kids working on an art project together or working in small groups to create a poster presentation, etc. The lecture-homework paradigm might be appropriate for high school, to for younger grades, there really aren’t lectures as much as interactive discussions and hands-on exploration.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by fizixer on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @07:45AM (#23018001)
I can't believe no one is talking about MOOCs and how MOOCs are part of our daily lives and yet they have been absolutely toothless in taking over the system.

I personally think MOOC-with-tech-advancements is the future of education. And I have a suspicion brick-and-mortar educational system has played a role in crippling its progress.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by watwut on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @02:28AM (#23016058)
Having kids now and being a kid, both are wrong. Education is not in-person lectures with work from home and were not for decades. And having best teacher making video may end up with bad video while not having your best teacher in contact with any kids.

And it is not like passive watching videos would be something new in education either.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by underwater on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @09:23PM (#23014226)
A good remote learning solution wouldn't involve teachers lecturing. Teaching is not about merely presenting information to be absorbed.

Teaching requires a feedback loop. What does the child need to know? What do they know already? Are they engaged? Can they explore the problem space themselves and get feedback and direction?

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by clairity on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @09:10PM (#23014153)
your #2 is the inverted classroom that’s been around for decades (if not since at least socrates), most notably with the khan academy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by wnoise on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @09:07PM (#23014131)
The second is currently done in some places. It's known as an "inverted classroom". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by jbreiding on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:44PM (#23012489)
Charter schools seem like the best opportunity to vet this style/evolution of education.

There are sure to be holes, like does this lead to treating the in person teacher as a commodity and reducing the value of that in person time?

But definitely this is a time for disruption in this space.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by asdff on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @06:08PM (#23012734)
Large public districts have many magnet programs that can experiment here too. Some of the issues with the magnet program are getting people to the school. 10 miles in LA could take you an hour during rush hours. A high school program that combined distance work with going to campus only a couple days out of the week would be very beneficial and mirror a college environment better than anything else.

I have reservations about fully remote programs, because in my newly remote grad program right now I am worthless with zoom only lectures, and I'm not alone.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by gedy on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @12:44AM (#23015462)
> Using the "best" teachers from the school district to provide lectures

I'm sure teacher's union would be loath to try new things like this or "rank" teachers in any way..

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by karatestomp on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @09:21AM (#23018769)
Ranking attempts tend to go bad and become hellish and/or are abused to get rid of people for personal or political reasons while bypassing normal processes and protections against firing.

I mean, software developers love stack ranking, right? We can go ahead and fire anyone who doesn't close X Jira tickets per month, I'm sure. Lines of code? Business impact? (oh, sorry, that critical bugfix you did doesn't fit in our measurement framework so you're underperforming, have a PIP).

"Wait but we can just measure performance with tests" LOL OK, if you thought "teaching to the test" was bad before...

And anyway they do already measure performance with year-over-year student progress on state tests, and there are consequences if you suck at it for too long. At least around here. There's enough leeway that it's not horrible but it's also not great and does encourage some of those teach-to-the-test behaviors that people claim to hate. A good teacher would 100% for sure teach better not being judged under that system, and it's one of many things that push them out of teaching—even if they do fine on the metrics, it contributes to frustration and job dissatisfaction, having to do less-than-optimal things or else stress about test scores[1]. A bad one, perhaps, is better for being so judged.

[1] Example: several of these kids are effectively two grade levels behind on [subject]. Do I try to fill in those gaps, and leave them with little understanding of the material that will be on this year's test and so nearly certain to miss every question, or do I treat of the earlier material only when absolutely necessary so they see most of this year's stuff (even if understanding it poorly), so score a little higher than they would otherwise? The former is definitely better for the students, but if you get a "low" class you're (the teacher) gonna be fucked on your standardized testing scores if you do that. This is a real, and not uncommon, situation to be in.

Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by prawn on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:58AM (#23015877)
You can probably phrase this as "teachers would be" and make the same, realistic point without attracting as much ire? It was my first thought too. Another option would be to have a rotation.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by vl on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @04:30AM (#23016807)
One thing for sure this pandemics is going to demonstrate us if there is any value in American school education.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by zarkov99 on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:34PM (#23012377)
I agree 100%. I think after say 1st grade, most schools are enormously inefficient, their main value is providing free day care and (somewhat) supervised socialization opportunities. The actual academic work is easily done at home with little supervision.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by asdff on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @06:05PM (#23012701)
A huge thing with elementary schools is fitness. For some kids, gym class is the only time they are physically active. I went to a private middle school that had a rule that you needed to play a sport, even if it meant just being a benchwarmer. Only the football players were chubby at that school.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by zarkov99 on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @06:31PM (#23012924)
Where I live they let home-school kids participate in public school teams. My friends who home-schooled their kids told me that was the best of both worlds.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by Talanes on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @08:02PM (#23013675)
Much more structured than my home-school PE. I would just roller-blade and bike around town, because I had a single mother who couldn't waste time driving me around to see friends. She would just approximate my distance into a PE journal and that was that.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by cylinder on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @12:25AM (#23015341)
why are you people trying to end everything that's in-person? what is so harmful about in person activities?! there's an ugly anti-humanist component in the tech world.
Re:Some school districts plan to end the year early, call re... by kube-system on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:01AM (#23015557)
I don’t think it’s anti-humanist as much as it is simply a result of perspective.

Ask a preacher to solve a problem and they’ll use prayer.

Ask a politician to solve a problem and they’ll draft a law.

Ask a developer to solve a problem and they’ll write you an app.