- play groups gives play time w/ mixed-age kids
- piano lesson gives (non-parent) teacher-student setting
- living every day life has child interact with adults for various things (e.g. ask the cashier if they have X for you to buy)
- tight knit parish community gives very diverse age range (babies, toddlers, teens, seniors, etc) for both play, service, hikes, etc
- siblings close in age
Full disclosure, I was very skeptical of homeschooling to start and am myself a product of one of the best Bay Area private schools. I only chose to give homeschooling a try as I had a flexible remote-work situation and thus a year of not being tied to a school schedule seemed worth a shot. It has been a success beyond my imagination and my son is not only ahead of where I expected scholastically, but also socially.
Also, where I live, driving around to all those activities would add up to a lot of time. I assume you live in a more urban area where those things are in close proximity/within walking distance?
Sorry to sound snarky, but the idea that homeschool kids are somehow socially stunted is a myth that needs to die. If anything, it's the other way around. Homeschool kids are exposed to a much wider variety of social situations which develops a broad base of social skills and preparation for adult responsibility much more effectively than the stifling and artificial environment of public schools does.
I'm sorry, but it's not a myth. It's something that can and does happen in many cases, depending pretty much entirely on the attitude of the parents. I was homeschooled. My religious parents viewed it as an opportunity to shelter me from the evils of the world. I now have social anxiety, difficulty relating to other people, an inability to make and keep friends, and several other mental health issues.
The majority of "homeschooled" students I knew (and know) were barely homeschooled - starting in middle school or high school, most of their classes were taught co-operatively by other homeschooling parents, or paid community college professors looking for some extra money. (I took several math and science classes this way.) Full homeschooling (where every single "class" from K-12 is done in the home) needs to be undertaken with extreme caution, if at all, especially when the kids get past grade school, and need to be hearing the ideas and input of peers as they relate to the things they are learning. The also need to be having social experiences with peers many times per week, which becomes very difficult even for dedicated parents.
We don't do education otherwise, we wanted to flexischool (UK) but the teachers vetoed it. However, we know quite a few families who homeschool and they have an incredible bunch of socially active, artistically skilled, intellectually capable kids. Socially, they seem to be ahead of other groups, to me, because (I contend) they get/got a lot of inter-age interaction. There's probably a lot of selection effects too.
My own kids seem, in contrast, to have gotten more out of clubs fitted in around schooling, as opposed to their socially fulfilling time seeming to be more co-terminous with educational experience.
One thing I'm concerned about with school is that up until 12yo the kids only regular day-time contact with men is the janitor ... it's a slightly orthogonal issue, but I guess in general "you can't pick your teachers" applies for most people and even in our pretty nice neighborhood a couple of the teachers have had lasting negative effects on our kids.
My guess is yes, but I have no direct evidence of that. The thing I think I can say with certainty is that there's a long tail of parental effects on socialization for homeschooled kids. Very severely conservative or religious parents are very likely to have kids with these problems to a moderate or strong degree. And quite a few homeschooling parents in the United States are like this - you might very well be in a liberal or urban bubble if you don't see this in your local homeschooling community.
> My own kids seem, in contrast, to have gotten more out of clubs fitted in around schooling
I don't mean to sound like I'm totally opposed to homeschooling. I actually think it can be much better than public schools with the right parents, the right environment, the right amount of money, and so on. I'm not clear on exactly how old your kids are, but I would warn that I do think it's significantly harder to encourage the best social development once they become teenagers.
> a couple of the teachers
By "teachers" I assume this means you are hiring outside instructors or doing co-op classes with other homeschooling families where your kids and there kids are being taught at the same time. This is a very different kind of experience and not what I referred to as "full homeschooling" in another comment in this thread.
It's something that can and does happen in many cases, depending pretty much entirely on the attitude of the parents.
Also, can you use ">" to offset quotes instead of four spaces? Because HN uses that for code, it's not readable for mobile users.
For sure, I'm not denying that, I'm just saying there's a difference between the possible outcome of having an awful time and being so socially abnormal that you get panicky talking to the cashier at the Burger King and can't make any friends.
The absolute worst-case, most socially-awkward homeschooler I ever met ended up just fine after a couple of years of college, which fully made up for any socialization deficiencies he may have suffered from being isolated from his public school peers.
>Our preliminary research suggests that homeschooled children are at a greater risk of dying from child abuse than are traditionally schooled children.
https://coloradosun.com/2018/10/08/homeschool-child-abuse-co...
>In a 2014 study published in the Journal of Child & Adolescent Trauma, Knox seemed to confirm that. Examining cases of severe and fatal child abuse, Knox found that 47 percent of the young victims had been removed from school to be home schooled
I agree with everything you’re saying about social experiences. I think making sure kids have plenty of opportunities to interact with people outside of their immediate circle is super important. It’s just as doable with homeschooling as with traditional schooling but it requires more intentionality because it might not happen naturally in the same way.
On the other hand, I can understand the frustration that homeschooling parents feel when other people assume that homeschooling will cause their kids to grow up weird.
I’m also annoyed when a discussion about the pros and cons of choosing to homeschool one’s kids leads to people citing cases of child abuse (further down the thread; I’m not talking about any of your comments).
The fact that some parents homeschool as a cover for abuse isn’t relevant to my decision on whether or not homeschooling is a good path for my kids.
I plan to homeschool my kids. My parents did a decent job with me, but I can do much better with my kids (in part because of my experience with my parents’ choices).
This site is filled with introverted engineers -- not exactly a representative sample. 3.4% of kids are homeschooled, 64% of which are doing so in order to provide religious instruction.
Most friendships are based on serendipity and closeness and repeated interactions.
While public schooling does have its drawbacks, and some bad bullying scenarios (we’ve all been there), it also does have some good things. And you meet a variety of other kids, that comes from different walks of life, that may positively (or negatively) influence your own life.
Sure, you can supplement your kid’s social activities with going to church, or karate, or ballet, or piano, or other extracurricular activities, but it’s not quite the same.
Church, for one, is too cohesive, and results in groupthink. And that’s if you really want your kid to worship a bible, instead of understanding science. The other extracurricular activities on the other hand, lacks cohesion, that you don’t build lifelong friendships through that.
The other thing is, home-schooling tends to shelter your kids. You need them to build the toughness and mental resilience, from peer competition with other kids at school, in order to face the real world.
Because in the real world, you now compete with other adults, and a lot more is at stake. And you tend to learn these lessons along the way, as you grow up.
If you’re home-schooled, then how do you make childhood friends? How do you meet that dreamy girl, that you remember after all these years, just because she did something nice for you once.
While public schooling does have its drawbacks, and some bad bullying scenarios (we’ve all been there), it also does have some good things. And you meet a variety of other kids, that comes from different walks of life, that may positively (or negatively) influence your own life.
Sure, you can supplement your kid’s social activities with going to church, or karate, or ballet, or piano, or other extracurricular activities, but it’s not quite the same.
Church, for one, is too cohesive, and results in groupthink.
And that’s if you really want your kid to worship a bible, instead of understanding science.
The other extracurricular activities on the other hand, lacks cohesion, that you don’t build lifelong friendships through that.
The other thing is, home-schooling tends to shelter your kids.
Is an online class with a diverse crowd a sufficient replacement for actually going out, interacting, and being next to people of various racial, ethnic, religious, and economic backgrounds?
I've spent half of my life on online communities. If I went out into the world thinking the average person I interact with online was the same as the average person outside, I'd be very stunned by the reality and very ill-equipped. The types of people I encounter on Hacker News and other communities/groups I participate in online, well, I've almost never encountered similar people outside.
Is an online class with a diverse crowd a sufficient replacement for actually going out, interacting, and being next to people of various racial, ethnic, religious, and economic backgrounds?
I know there is plenty of diversity in small monocultural towns. But it is of a qualitatively different type.
When home schooling is used as one aspect of minimizing broader social contact for your children, it can be an issue. But it's not the home schooling per se that is the problem, but the attempt to narrow their world. And I agree it's totally unfair to paint every home schooled child with that particular brush.
But they do exist, and where they exist, most would highly benefit from traditional schools if for no other reason than it breaks the bubble a bit.
Having know a bunch of people who were home schooled in various ways I think your claim of clear superiority of preparation for adult life is also a bit too strong. On the whole I'd say it's a bit of a wash.
You need to elaborate, it is not at all clear how homeschooling will lead to a kid being exposed to a much wider variety of social situations.
If a homeschooled child never leaves the house, then yeah I can see it being a problem. But if they are allowed to go out and experience the world with their parents then they learn social skills by interacting with people of all ages, but mostly with adults who (most importantly) are already socialized and therefore model proper behavior instead of the insanity that goes on in age-segregated classrooms.
A shared culture is important, and each generation has their own touchstones.
You're basically just saying "if your parents socialize you then you'd be socialized." Sure, but if your parents don't socialize you then at least you'd have a slight chance to pick it up at school, if you're also kept away from school then you're just completely fucked.
I'm speaking as someone whose parents didn't socialize me.
On top of all that, even when engaging in core curricular study, homeschool kids are usually doing so in mixed-age groups, according to subject ability level--especially if they are part of a co-op.
Personally, I don’t think the occasional shared class or meetup with their peers compares to 8 hours every day being around hundreds of different personalities. Sometimes it can be hell, but you learn a lot about social interaction.
All that said I live in an area where most people that homeschool do it for religious reasons, so that could definitely be skewing things.
I’m saying this as an unschooler, who was entirely without a mandated curriculum from 2nd grade until adulthood.
A lot of it depends on the reasons for home schooling. My mum was just hippie-crunchy enough that when 6 year old me said I didn’t want to go to school, she just let me leave at the end of the year.
I’ve met incredibly awkward homeschoolers who were not in school due to religious parents. I’ve met families who just travel so much, it was easier on everybody to just homeschool their kids - these kids tend to be more socially developed than average IMO - May be because that lifestyle rewards kids for being outgoing. I’ve noticed many more trends, but there is ALWAYS an exception to the rule.
I should note that “successful” homeschooling does seem correlated with economic and social privilege; for me this was the case - I had the privilege of being raised in the greater Boston area, near enough public transport I could go into the city whenever I want. Personally, I can’t imagine raising kids in a rural environment where they can’t take bus anywhere, and don’t have easy access to other kids their own raise. But, of course, I know several people who were raised like that and are way more mature adults than most. I think this point is obvious, but traditional homeschooling also requires the privilege of having a parent who is not working, or the money to hire tutors (unschooling and co-op based homeschooling obviously has less of a dependency here).
No, that wasn't me. I certainly spent a lot more time interacting with other kids my age during weekdays, but quantity isn't quality.
I'd be curious to know if there's been any long-term research on this subject, but I'm not aware of anything.
1. Students and teachers are not always good role models and schools are not always a good environment for learning soft skills. Some schools are quite toxic. I'm sure many here can relate.
2. Who better to teach you social cues than your parents who love you and will be patient with you?
3. It depends on the child and the parents. Our oldest daughter is extremely introverted and was homeschooled yet has better social graces than her mother and I combined. Our middle daughter (extrovert) has a strong network of online/offline friends through various programs and activities. She will be starting a private school in the fall.
4. Homeschooled children get used to interacting with adults who are not in a school environment and tend to communicate in an adult like manner (IMHE).
5. The successful homeschoolers tend not to advertise it, yet they are everywhere. Unsuccessful home schoolers often become the subject click bait articles or books (ala Tara Westover's experience).
School for me was a horrible experience socially for me. I wish I'd been home schooled.
Truthfully, the bullying by other kids didn't even bother me in the least because it was so mild compared to what my parents dished out non-stop.
While homeschooling can work wonderfully in some places, it is exceedingly irresponsible to advocate for unregulated homeschooling while knowing the terrible home life some children have.
There are plenty of ways to intentionally foster and coach leadership skills without putting your kid into a public school, and there are plenty of ways to give your kids freedom without them running around and getting into trouble.
These things are in no way things that are strictly exclusive to the common public school experience. If anything, you are more likely to have success by being intentional with your approach in a homeschooled environment that is free from things like peer pressure and drugs and lack of supervision.