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Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by toyg on Sunday April 26, 2020 @02:47PM (#22989186)
Don't sell an email client, there is a reason they are all dead: too much effort, too many edge cases (POP3, IMAP, Exchange, Gmail...), not enough margins.

Instead, sell me a hack that can make Outlook look like that. You worry exclusively about the UI, Microsoft does the heavy lifting behind the scenes.

Best case: you make a ton of money by selling to actual businesses (rather than annoying geeks and other weirdos who dare use uncommon clients); slightly-worse case: you sell it to MS.

Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by tareqak on Sunday April 26, 2020 @03:24PM (#22989465)
That actually makes me think that a lot of potential invention/innovation is locked away behind cumbersome user interfaces. Imagine if all email clients were split between models and controller + view. People who want to improve the UI would be able to do so without necessarily affecting people who like the way things currently are. Once a sufficiently effective and intuitive user interface comes along, then a user would be able switch to that at their own pace. If the model part of the email clients had an common API for manipulating said model, then the same controller+view code could be used across multiple email clients e.g. a Eudora interface to the latest version of Outlook for those who want it, and the same Eudora interface for Thunderbird. In addition, it would be possible to both have OS-specific versions of the controller+view if someone wanted a truly native experience, or have OS-agnostic versions using Java, QT, or Electron if someone wanted to ship something faster and/or have a common code-base for controller+view.

NB. I might have confused MVC a little in my idea above.

Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by joepie91_ on Sunday April 26, 2020 @03:45PM (#22989619)
The model as you describe it wouldn't make a lot of sense. To simplify the description of what you're suggesting: it's to have the 'core' and 'UI' be separate.

But if the cores of different applications are interchangeable anyway (which they need to be, to make this model work), then why would multiple cores exist in the first place? It could just be reduced to a single one, and there'd be little incentive to start a new one if you can't deviate from the API anyway.

The closest real-world model to what you're describing, is an "implement once" public commons model; a shared commons of open-source / public domain libraries that implement a given responsibility or solution for a given problem, and that can then be used forever by everything, and that problem never needs solving again.

For that to work, the implementations in question need to be highly granular, so that using them is a no-brainer and you don't pull in additional complexity that you don't need. An "e-mail client", for example, would then effectively just be a UI, and all the business logic would be provided externally by a collection of loosely-coupled libraries.

Such a granular ecosystem, in turn, requires a dependency model where adding a dependency is (in and of itself) free and cannot cause dependency conflicts; otherwise people would start grouping complexity together again to reduce conflicts, as can be seen in the dependency ecosystems of many languages today.

The only ecosystem that is currently at a point where it can support the "implement once" model, is that of JS, due to everything being highly modular and interoperable. Rust is also moving in that direction, but its ecosystem is nowhere near mature enough yet.

Unfortunately, people are too busy complaining about meaningless dependency counts to understand what a highly-granular dependency model makes possible.

Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by SCM-Enthusiast on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:04PM (#23021497)
Essentially, Microsoft/ Gmail/ whoever implemented your idea would develop an ecosystem of user generated content. So many different GUI's developed using a specific API to that platform (E.G. Outlook). I can download Outlook, and pick whichever GUI I want, some free, some I pay some outside developer. This 'Saves' Microsoft from ever becoming irrelevent some how, cause it has infinite addaptability. Kind of like Wordpress for email.
Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by worble on Sunday April 26, 2020 @04:17PM (#22989862)
> Best case: you make a ton of money by selling to actual businesses (rather than annoying geeks and other weirdos who dare use uncommon clients); slightly-worse case: you sell it to MS.

And worst case: MS change how things work and block this sort of thing happening again. You now have a bunch of angry customers with a hack that doesn't work.

I'm no lawyer, so I'd also check the legal implications of selling something that builds on top and modifies Microsofts application without their explicit consent.

Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by wildmusings on Sunday April 26, 2020 @04:32PM (#22990007)
There's a big market for Office add-ins. API docs: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/office/dev/add-ins/outlook/...
Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by toyg on Sunday April 26, 2020 @05:01PM (#22990223)
Add-ons are allowed, even welcomed by MS.

Of course, the trade-offs of "sharecropping" on someone else's platform are always there, from a strategic point of view. MS can wake up one day and rewrite Outlook in Rust, forcing you to rewrite from scratch or making it impossible in practice. But it's a possibility much more remote, imho, than the chance of making significant money with yet another exotic mail client.

Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by bjg on Sunday April 26, 2020 @02:53PM (#22989239)
Yes please, I would buy this.
Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by easyfrag on Sunday April 26, 2020 @04:35PM (#22990031)
Being part of an org that uses O365, searching for such a product is the first thing I did after seeing this.
Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by jv22222 on Sunday April 26, 2020 @05:11PM (#22990305)
Conversely, maybe there is an opportunity for building a headless email platform that deals with the heavy lifting and enable any dev to add new front end ideas.

Sort of like mailgun but for consumer clients.

Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by toyg on Sunday April 26, 2020 @07:32PM (#22991294)
Sort of "webkit for email", that would be interesting... The problem is finding a decent monetization model.

Btw, we kinda had something like that: Lotus Notes and MS Exchange, originally, were abstract document stores. In theory, anyone could have built custom views that behaved as you wished, while the platform took care of email fetching and synchronizing. Unfortunately, both Lotus (later IBM) and Microsoft saw those platforms as lock-in instruments in a push for vertical dominance, so they had no incentive but to push their own clients.

Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by kehers on Monday April 27, 2020 @05:02AM (#22994167)
Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by adamfeldman on Sunday April 26, 2020 @11:47PM (#22992713)
Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by chrisfrantz on Sunday April 26, 2020 @06:45PM (#22990973)
Love this idea
Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by slightwinder on Monday April 27, 2020 @06:39AM (#22994595)
> Don't sell an email client, there is a reason they are all dead

They are not dead, they are just out of your view.

Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by toyg on Monday April 27, 2020 @08:16AM (#22995087)
Give me a single commercial email client that is realistically competing with Outlook and GMail.
Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by slightwinder on Monday April 27, 2020 @11:43AM (#22996912)
That is the wrong assumption. They don't need to compete with anyone. As a commercial software they only need to make enough money to survive for their own good. As a non-commercial software they don't even need money, just enough attention to stay useable. And in both those camps there are still many members alive.
Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by toyg on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @08:02AM (#23006167)
Non-commercial doesn't really matter to the thread.

Commercially, you see the occasional upstart, but inevitably they die after a few years. I used Airmail for a while but they just stagnated (they barely kept up with Gmail and struggled with Exchange) so I had to drop them.

The market for commercial desktop email clients is super-small: the intersection of the already-niche subgroups of people who will pay for email clients, people who will pay for desktop software, and people who will pay for already-commoditized software. The effort is simply not worth the small rewards, particularly compared to the impact one could have by building on existing commodity clients.

Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by triangulum on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @07:47PM (#23013553)
MailMate https://freron.com/

> MailMate is not the most widespread, the cheapest, or the greatest looking email client, but I also have no aspiration to MailMate ever being any of these. Instead, MailMate aspires to be the most powerful, the most flexible, the most efficient, the most standards compliant, and the most secure email client.

Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by strogonoff on Monday April 27, 2020 @02:35PM (#22998572)
HEY[0] is commercial and quite promising; admittedly with its release postponed due to COVID filing it under present-continuous “is competing” is somewhat of a leap of faith on my part.

[0] https://hey.com/problems-with-email/

Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by peschu on Monday April 27, 2020 @08:06PM (#23001771)
Try mailspring...it’s an impressive piece of oss. Free version & pro features(paid)

https://getmailspring.com

Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by joshfraser on Sunday April 26, 2020 @03:22PM (#22989445)
How about a Chrome extension that makes Gmail look like that?
Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by zchannel on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:08PM (#23012048)
If you do not need more than 5 stages on the Kanban, you can indeed use the Gmail Multiple Inboxes to easily moving the emails through the different panes. Play with different Google Stars to easily move the emails and, in the end, just unstar the message to clear it of your way. Bast practice to keep the inbox clean, once you added a star on your email and this is picked up with the Multiple Inboxes, ARCHIVE the message. It will still be visible in the Multiple Inboxes but cleared from your Indox. See more on the first video of my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoPEE8RAtxJ3OhnlgeBVWEQ Let me know if this could fix the problem in case Gmail is the platform.
Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by toyg on Sunday April 26, 2020 @04:08PM (#22989788)
I don’t use Gmail for business purposes, which is the area where this sort of interface shines. Gmail is absolutely n.1 in personal email, but a lot (most?) business email still runs through outlook, and that’s where the money is.
Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by osel on Sunday April 26, 2020 @11:03PM (#22992501)
DragApp does this - https://www.dragapp.com (not affiliated, just tried out their first beta)
Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by gmelius on Monday April 27, 2020 @07:28AM (#22994810)
Gmelius does offer kanban boards within Gmail. Boards are 2-way synced with Gmail labels or shared inboxes, and can be shared with specific teammates. https://gmelius.com/trello-gmail
Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by zwayhowder on Sunday April 26, 2020 @04:21PM (#22989892)
Already built in. Enable multiple inboxes in Gmail and use labels for all these.
Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by zchannel on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:12PM (#23012108)
We do a combination of labels and stars. The last ones are easier to change and if you only pick a minimal number of stars it is not that complicated to remember them and rapidly click through them until you select the right one. See more on the first video of my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoPEE8RAtxJ3OhnlgeBVWEQ
Re:Show HN: Kanmail – An email client that functions like a ... by mpfundstein on Sunday April 26, 2020 @03:40PM (#22989585)
so we actually need a good email client lib that binds to all kinds of languages ...