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Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by spodek on Monday April 20, 2020 @08:29AM (#22923263)
As someone who used to love flying and relied on it for income, family, etc, but stopped as I learned how much it polluted, pleasantly surprised to find how much my life improved without it, I read articles on the cruise industry as applying to flying. Ticket costs don't cover the costs of cleaning their environmental damage. Few people could afford it if they had to pay for that damage.

In the case of contributing to pandemics, flying spreads viruses incredibly effectively. Boats trap a few thousand people at a time. Flights bring the virus to population centers of tens of millions in hours.

For the time being, people associate flying with seeing loved ones and making money, so they associate not flying with never seeing their moms or losing their jobs. Experience shows the opposite. The more people fly, the more dispersed their families, so the less they see loved ones. Flying forces companies to fly people everywhere.

I predict the vitriol people are starting to show for cruises will eventually make it to flying, however hard to conceive today.

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by ses1984 on Monday April 20, 2020 @09:32AM (#22923655)
>The more people fly, the more dispersed their families, so the less they see loved ones.

Are you suggesting there is a causative relationship between flying and having a dispersed family?

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by leetcrew on Monday April 20, 2020 @10:16AM (#22923963)
is this controversial? the existence of cheap cross-country flights makes it much easier for people to move to the best location for their profession and fly back home to see everyone for easter and christmas (or whatever your big two holidays are).
Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by dsfyu404ed on Monday April 20, 2020 @10:47AM (#22924240)
People moved across oceans and continents for careers back when those moves took months. Being able to go back and see family is a perk that's moved its way down the income latter with the advent of cheap air travel but I don't think it's making or breaking anyone's decision to relocate or at least not in numbers large enough to matter.

People will move far away for their careers regardless but if the cheap long distance transportation exists then people will use it. The people who are working in one city and taking a flight back home every weekend are statistically nonexistent. The people who moved across the country and take a plane back a couple times a year to celebrate as major holiday or something are far more numerous but those people would have still moved without the cheap airfare.

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by munificent on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:13PM (#22926651)
You make such a confident-sounding blanket generalization across all human behavior that goes counter to everything I have ever experienced that I don't even know how to reply to this comment.

Do you honestly not believe that people take ease of access to their loved ones when deciding where to work? I've had countless conversations with people talking about how they chose jobs to be closer to family. Transportation lets you convert the spatial metric of "closer" to a measure of time and cost instead. If flights double in price, that means seeing family half as often, which can easily make the difference between choosing job A over job B.

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by JAlexoid on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @08:35PM (#22940828)
We have millenia of proof to the contrary, to your anecdotal evidence.

People move away primarily for economic benefits. No single mass migration in history of humanity has ever happened "because people wanted to be close to their family".

If you want anecdotes: I know hundreds of people that have moved away from their families and only a few that moved back after being elsewhere. (Literally about half of my graduation year at university have moved away) Most people I know, that moved, see their family back "home" only once or twice per year (summer vacation + winter holidays).

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by ses1984 on Monday April 20, 2020 @11:50AM (#22924966)
I hope I'm not being pedantic when I point out that the existence of cheap flights isn't the same thing as taking them. I will accept that the existence of cheap flights causes more air travel. I will not accept without evidence that the act of traveling via air leads people to having more dispersed families.
Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by leetcrew on Monday April 20, 2020 @12:07PM (#22925165)
I don't think anyone is implying that you as an individual flying causes your family to spread out. although if you spend most of the year traveling, your relatives might start to wonder what the point of living near your primary residence is. I can see how you might interpret the wording from the original post as saying that, but it doesn't really make sense that way.

the point is that, when it's affordable and normal to fly great distances on a yearly/monthly basis, it causes people to spread out a lot more. then you end up with a chicken-egg scenario where people "need" cheap flights to see their spread out families, but the cheap flights also enable them to spread out further while still seeing each other.

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by ses1984 on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @07:58AM (#22934099)
I think it's not that simple. Flying to see your family is always more costly than being close to your family, even when flights are "cheap". What causes people to want to move? What causes people to be ok paying the cost?
Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by leetcrew on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @12:10PM (#22936244)
choosing where to live is always a tradeoff between many competing factors: proximity to family, intrinsic appeal of a particular area, job opportunities for you and your partner, the list goes on.

odds are, you didn't happen to be born in the optimal location for your desired career. if you can get paid $20k more on the other side of the country and a flight home costs $200, you might find it pretty tempting to move. if the flight cost $2000 or you had to drive for three days to get home, it would be a lot less appealing for people who value seeing their family.

I don't understand how it's so hard to see that cheap flights make a big difference at the margin.

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by JAlexoid on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @08:47PM (#22940904)
You are implying that there are a lot of people that are on those margins. There's simply no evidence of that being the case.

In fact - the drastic rise of living costs in economic centers indicates that people will take that move, even if that trip back is several hundred dollars and takes many hours.

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by mandevil on Monday April 20, 2020 @11:11AM (#22924493)
And yet Europeans roared across the Atlantic in the millions when it took >1 month to sail. Europeans colonized Australia and New Zealand, even further away (~250 days), and only about half the total number of people on board the First Fleet were convicts, the rest went along because it was their job or their choice.
Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by ineedasername on Monday April 20, 2020 @11:31AM (#22924755)
This doesn't refute the concept that now people may choose to live somewhere in part due to its transportation options.
Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by JAlexoid on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @08:38PM (#22940847)
I mean.... Sure.

I hate NYC and yet I recognise that it's the best location for fast travel to Europe... I travel back home about 2 times per year, though.

But implying that travel accessibility is the primary reason is absurd. If I had a good job offer from a company in LA - I would still take it. Even though my travel time to my mother would double(11 to 22 hours)

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by smacktoward on Monday April 20, 2020 @11:17AM (#22924585)
None of those were casual journeys the way a flight home for Christmas is. For colonists, it was generally the one long-distance trip they would make in their entire lives. In the glory days of the great trans-Atlantic liners, the only people who used them regularly were the very rich.
Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by JAlexoid on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @08:40PM (#22940860)
Casual journeys are still an expensive thing to do. Do you think a median family in US can afford a short trip to Miami, planned even a month in advance?
Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by ineedasername on Monday April 20, 2020 @11:22AM (#22924645)
Could be: I had a parent just move as they transitioned to a retirement, fixed-income budget and needed to live somewhere with a lower cost of living. A big factor in the choosing where to settle was ease of travel back to where other family is located. They ultimately chose somewhere very close to a large airport that had frequent low-cost (sub $100) round trip tickets back back & forth.
Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by jdm2212 on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:10PM (#22926616)
My wife and I are planning where we'll settle down based on where there are direct flights to see our parents, so, yes, people do that.
Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by Kilonzus on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:10PM (#22928611)
I'm curious because I'd also like to take steps to lower my carbon footprint. How do you travel for vacations? Do you only take local ones? And also how about people that you want to see in other areas of the country/world?
Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by spodek on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @08:36AM (#22934362)
I try to address those questions in my TEDx talks: http://joshuaspodek.com/my-second-tedx-talk-what-everyone-ge...

This Inc. article describes some of my early results: https://www.inc.com/joshua-spodek/365-days-without-flying.ht...

The answer no one wants to hear is that no words can convey what one learns from just committing. I'm in my fifth year and I haven't been able to convey to anyone the mindset shift. It's like trying to describe hearing Beethoven's ninth in Carnegie Hall, except bigger and better. What words can you use?

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by paulcole on Monday April 20, 2020 @10:44AM (#22924216)
Whether you go on a cruise or not, it’s essentially impossible to live a modern life and not have a net negative effect on the environment. The marginal damage done by existing plus going on cruise vs. just existing is infinitesimal.
Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by viceroyalbean on Monday April 20, 2020 @11:11AM (#22924492)
>The marginal damage done by existing plus going on cruise vs. just existing is infinitesimal.

Depends on your definition of "just existing". I can't claim to live in a way that's very good for the environment, but I do try to limit meat consumption, purchases of new goods etc. Most online calculators for carbon footprints give me a ~8 ton yearly Co2 equivalent. According to [1] a cruise from Southhampton to New York (one way) is ~4.5 tons per person, so that would be a whopping 50% increase for me, and more than double if I did a return trip. That's just the Co2 emissions too, so not factoring in the various ocean-polluting effects (also mentioned in [1]).

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2006/dec/20/cruises.green

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by lotsofpulp on Monday April 20, 2020 @11:03AM (#22924402)
The juicy question is how much damage is one entitled to?
Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by eru on Monday April 20, 2020 @01:56PM (#22926474)
Reasonably well-off individual people could easily negate the damage they do to the environment. (Though we couldn't all do that, I guess.)

Just buy as many carbon offsets or similar as necessary for your existence to come out net positive.

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by lotsofpulp on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:28PM (#22928147)
I doubt it. It's impossible to calculate how much damage one does to the environment, but the single biggest cause for extra fuel use (which correlates almost perfectly with environmental damage) is living in non dense environments since all the mass required for living has to be moved that much further.

I don't think it's possible for anyone, even a well off individual, to offset what living in 1/4 acre or more lots does to society as a whole, since mass transit is no longer feasible, which means density is less feasible, and it causes a whole chain reaction of extra fuel use.

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by eru on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @03:27AM (#22932804)
> It's impossible to calculate how much damage one does to the environment, [...]

You can use approximations.

> I don't think it's possible [...] to offset what living in 1/4 acre or more lots does [...]

Sure, dense living has a smaller footprint.

But individuals can still buy enough offsets. It's just going to be more expensive.

You can also get more creative with your offsets. For example, I could try to find two people who are currently living sparsely and convince them with a bit of money to move to a dense neighbourhood. That would more than offset any personal decision to live in a sparse neighbourhood.

(Slatestarcodex had a similar idea about eating meat: just bribe other people to become vegetarian, if you are worried about your net impact but still want to eat tasty, tasty meat.

Obviously, normal well-adjusted humans don't take kindly to trading in such indulgences.)

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by lotsofpulp on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @08:42AM (#22934406)
Public transportation is not something you can dump on others. Everyone is using it, or no one is since you simply can’t design infrastructure for both at the same time. You can’t have surface streets for cars and optimize them for pedestrians and bicyclists. And obviously people will choose cars as who wouldn’t want the comfort and privacy of their own vehicle, so the upper class in society won’t be participating in the public transportation, which also has predictably negative effects on the politics of it.

This is one example of something you can’t offset.

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by eru on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @11:49AM (#22936031)
Singapore for example does just fine having both private cars and public transport.

Germany also has both reasonable public transport and good accommodation for private vehicles. You can totally find some people who are on the margin between the two and could be persuaded either way relatively easily.

But even granting that part of your argument, I don't see how you can't offset it? You could either be non-specific and just buy enough carbon offsets. Or if you want to specifically offset public transport use, just bribe some people to move to place with better public transport.

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by lotsofpulp on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @12:34PM (#22936531)
Politically, you can’t even spend the funds on public transport if it will disrupt private cars (roads would need to be removed and made smaller).

Even the mention of more density or less road for people’s private cars will cause a public outcry that will shut the project down. And it takes years if not decades to construct public transport, so that political will has to run through multiple elections.

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by eru on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:47AM (#22952891)
What are you objecting to? I didn't say to build more public transport in places that don't want it.

My proposal was about changing what people do on the margin. And assuming that we can offset behaviour anywhere on the globe. Ie that you can get more people in Germany on public transport to make up for your sins in America.

(Btw, buses don't need much of a change to the road layout.)

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by paulcole on Monday April 20, 2020 @10:41PM (#22931295)
What about the kids you pop out? Better offset those, too.
Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by eru on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @03:29AM (#22932815)
Sure, you can look into that.

You can do some finance to calculate the present value of the income stream needed to offset the expected impact of all your progeny forever.

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by paulcole on Monday April 20, 2020 @11:24AM (#22924683)
As much as we want. Let’s just be honest about the fact that hardly anyone cares as much as they claim to.
Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by easyat on Monday April 20, 2020 @01:42PM (#22926295)
Really? Believing that your entitled to externalize as much damage onto the world as you feel like is psychopathic
Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by paulcole on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:10PM (#22926612)
Look around bud. How many people do you think are taking significant steps to minimize the damage they do?

We act like eating a little less meat or buying a Tesla is the equivalent of a the Nobel Peace Prize but it’s just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Let’s get real and enjoy this ride while it lasts.

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by lotsofpulp on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:04PM (#22927907)
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted because very few people take the steps that actually reduce environmental damage such as not flying anywhere, living in small residences in dense urban areas, and dramatically reducing driving.

Which to me clearly show the truth of your comment. You can swap out all the plastic bags for cloth bags and buy a Tesla and spend an hour sorting your trash every week, but taking that flight for a honeymoon to Tahiti or living in a suburb and driving everywhere negates all of it and more.

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by perl4ever on Monday April 20, 2020 @10:42PM (#22931298)
I agree with your claim that "everybody is doing it wrong"...except that I think your conclusion just ends up being the same fallacy as everyone else's. Specifically, you can't assume a flight to Tahiti does or doesn't negate plastic bags or whatever.

The only realistic and honest way to assess overall impact is put a number on your total consumption. There are a million ways that can be skewed, but averages don't vary as much as you think - as an overall reality check, if you make and spend your $50K salary every year, that is going to be the order of magnitude of your environmental impact. Mostly, someone who consumes $500K worth of stuff is going to have 10x the impact, and someone who consumes $5K will have 1/10th the impact. How you spend it is second order.

This attitude will never catch on, because people feel, innately and through socialization, that misers are bad, "bean counters" are bad, simple but difficult solutions are bad, and focusing on specific actions, symbols, in-groups and out-groups, is what drives normal social activity and fulfillment.

The psychology of "saving the environment" reminds me a lot of dieting for people who struggle with their weight, or budgeting for people who live paycheck to paycheck. It's the total that matters, not the parts, and yet it's very difficult to approach it any way other than piece by piece.

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by lotsofpulp on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @08:49AM (#22934447)
> The only realistic and honest way to assess overall impact is put a number on your total consumption. There are a million ways that can be skewed, but averages don't vary as much as you think - as an overall reality check, if you make and spend your $50K salary every year, that is going to be the order of magnitude of your environmental impact. Mostly, someone who consumes $500K worth of stuff is going to have 10x the impact, and someone who consumes $5K will have 1/10th the impact. How you spend it is second order.

I’d like to think it was this easy, but I don’t believe it is. A Manhattan apartment costs a million dollars or more, but that person can use public transport to get around. Someone in Arkansas lives in a suburb of Little Rock and drives 30 miles to work one way every day in a pickup truck they don’t need and uses fuel costing $1 per gallon or less. And their house cost $200k.

I wouldn’t be able to say the person in Manhattan is causing an order more environmental impact, especially when our world doesn’t price in externalities of fuel use at all for most of the population.

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by perl4ever on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @04:50PM (#22939171)
Well, I wrote "consumption" for a reason. It's arguable that Manhattan real estate is valuable largely due to the land value, and land is an asset that isn't really consumed.

Externalities are a cop-out. There are always externalities, but they're just used as an excuse for special pleading. If you average a large amount of consumption, the amount of oil per dollar, and the externalities of burning it, are going to be fairly consistent. The type of consumption is dwarfed by the amount of consumption; that's the claim I'm making. It's not that the "environmental choice" isn't better all else being equal, but it doesn't make up for hardly any consumption as a percentage. If you're not saving significant money as a percentage with your choices, you're not improving your lifestyle significantly.

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by paulcole on Monday April 20, 2020 @10:39PM (#22931286)
Yep, people really want to feel like they’re doing their part when they’re really as much a part of the problem as the people they look down on.

I’ve never lived in an apartment bigger than 600 square feet, have never driven a car, don’t fly, eat a plant based diet, and will never have kids. We’re about a generation or two from a total disaster and everybody wants to think tiny insignificant changes are enough. Glad I’ll be be long dead by then.

Re:Carnival Executives Knew They Had a Virus Problem, but Ke... by damnyou on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @02:31AM (#22932554)
Look at you, person doing more environmental damage than 80% of the people on the planet, looking down on others at the 85th percentile.

I fly maybe once a year, avoid red meat, and live in a dense neighborhood. I'm doing more environmental damage than most people and I've made my peace with it.