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Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by qeternity on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @10:52AM (#22738067)
You have to look at real rates, not nominal rates. The only markets that have negative nominal rates are battling deflation (which the US is not) or have serious liquidity concerns at the moment. The Fed is unlikely to go negative as they face a very different beast.

Here's a quick example. Let's say you're in a deflationary environment: in 1 year, your money actually buys you more than it did last year, let's say for instance, 2% more. Under this weird environment, you would actually be willing to pay someone to hold your money for a year, because you know in a years time, it will buy you 2% more (effectively a 2% return). So, since you don't want to store that money under your mattress, how much will you pay someone? Let's say you pay your bank 0.5% for holding your money (i.e. negative rate). So in a years time, you get 99.5% of your money back from the bank, but it buys you 2% more "stuff" so really, compared to today, you're getting 101.5% (roughly) of your money back, which is the same as a 1.5% interest rate. This is called the "real" interest rate, and it's the only one that matters.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by thorwasdfasdf on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:52PM (#22739533)
but we're not having deflation. With fewer and fewer people working, there's less and less supply with even larger demand, now that they're printing money like never before. As a result, we're going to get really really serious inflation of over 2%, 3%, maybe even more than 3%.

It doesn't sound like much because we've become innured to it. But, it's really bad. Just think, you earned 100K in 1 year and 1 year later it's only worth 97K. That's a tax of 3K just for holding on to your money, on top of all the taxes that already exist (Govt spending is 40% of GDP ~ and that's just nationwide.)

After just 20 years of 3% inflation, your money is worth half of what it was when you earned it. What's the point of government if they can't even provide a stable currency? Is the expectation that everyone must now buy equities and real estate? Are we to go back to bartering?

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by mdorazio on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:43PM (#22740174)
1) Once again, inflation does not work that way. If it did, it would have been out of control in 2009. Instead, it was near zero. The same thing is happening right now.

2) The idea that 2-3% inflation is "really really serious" is completely absurd. I'm guessing you're young because historical US inflation prior to the ridiculous post-2009 financial situation had long periods of being well above 3% and the sky didn't fall. Inflation above what we've seen in the last decade is not necessarily a bad thing.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by voisin on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @11:03PM (#22745201)
Anyone else have a hard time believing the official inflation numbers? Housing, food, restaurants, electricity, hotels,... anything I can think of that I buy regularly all seems significantly more expensive than it did 10 years ago - much higher than the official numbers would lead me to expect.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by meseeks555 on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @03:28AM (#22746521)
This is my experience as well ... and healthcare and education costs have also gone up much faster than the stated rate of inflation. There are a few areas --- like consumer electronics and maybe food --- where this isn't the case or prices have actually gone down, but only a very few.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by hnarn on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:52PM (#22740304)
For context, the inflation goal set by the Swedish national bank is 2%. That's what they're aiming for, so clearly it's not "really really serious". CNBC also states that:

>The Fed considers a 2% inflation rate to be a sign of sustainable growth and a level that keeps interest rates high enough to allow for mobility in the event of an economic downturn.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by akuchling on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:23PM (#22740689)
1-3% is also the Bank of Canada's target range: https://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/indicators/key-variables/k...
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by fauigerzigerk on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:27PM (#22740740)
I agree that 2-3% inflation is nothing to worry about. But what's happening now is not quite the same thing as in 2009.

For the first time in a very long time we actually have a shortage of supply. We didn't have that in 2009.

But I think/hope it will be short lived, and depending on how we act now it could easily turn into a shortage of demand once again.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by jjeaff on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:40PM (#22740917)
Do we really have a shortage of supply? For what products? The only shortages I have seen are for toilet paper and a few random grocery store products that maniacs decide to stockpile next. (in my community, there is all the sudden a run on ice cream now that bread is back in stock).
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by fauigerzigerk on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:58PM (#22741134)
We have a shortage of farm labour for instance, which may soon turn into a shortage of fresh produce and into massive food price inflation. We have a shortage of home delivery capacity.

If stuff doesn't get manufactured for months, we will have a shortage of many other things as well. Obviously we have a lack of demand for other things at the same time.

I don't think there is that much unreasonable stockpiling. People are no longer eating out. Kids are no longer eating at school. So people buy more at supermarkets. They also buy for a week, quite sensibly, to avoid making a trip to a crowded supermarket every day.

Combine that with finely tuned just in time logistics and you get a bit of a crunch. There's simply a misalignment of capacity right now, but there could be a real shortage of some essentials soon.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by CSSer on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @07:25PM (#22743903)
Where did the restaurants and the school get their food from? I know that means a great disruption, but I’m still not convinced that means a shortage.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by nitrogen on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @08:22PM (#22744334)
Sysco and the like. It's probably a distribution rather than a supply issue.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by sokoloff on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @08:40PM (#22744452)
Exactly. Typical container size in foodservice distribution is a #10 can, packed 6 to a case. Each #10 can is 3 quarts.

Fairly few households are interested in buying canned tomatoes 18 quarts at a time.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by daxorid on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:29PM (#22742187)
Hoarding is a small aspect of current shortages. I'll pick one example at random:

Gyms are closed, so go try to find a squat rack, a bar, and some bumper plates for a home gym. Or dumbbells. Or even some crappy resistance bands. You can't. Nobody is hoarding 45lb plates for future use, they're demanding them for use now. Expand this for every industry impacted by shutdown orders. It wouldn't take long to think of hundreds of examples of non-hoarding shortages.

Inflation is coming. Shortages are the market telling you that price MUST increase to equalize demand. And it will.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:49PM (#22741695)
VR systems and Nintendo Switch systems are also out of supply, they were bought up quickly when the quarantine started and China hasn’t been making any new ones for a couple of months now.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by chelovek89 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @08:42PM (#22744464)
A personal example. Gym equipment: barbells, weight plates, squat racks, etc are either sold out or way overpriced right now because gyms are closed. I bought a barbell set the week before my gym closed, and now that I went to look to buy new weights for it Im looking at "out of stock until May"
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by mrec on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:21PM (#22742087)
> historical US inflation prior to the ridiculous post-2009 financial situation had long periods of being well above 3% and the sky didn't fall

True, but misleading; again, it's real rather than nominal rates that matter to most people. Before the GFC you could get interest on savings above the rate of inflation, even after tax. Not spectacular gains, but saving was at least possible.

After the GFC your choices are to either a) join the long queue of ever-greater fools piling into the casino, or b) watch central banks confiscate your money, year after year, forever.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by thorwasdfasdf on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @07:14PM (#22743803)
i was well aware of the 70s and 80s, that doesn't make it right.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by viklove on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:33PM (#22742223)
There's less supply of what? We still have plenty of food, plenty of homes, plenty of water. Yeah, we have less Airbnbs getting booked, and Ubers being called, but does that really fucking matter? It only matters to the VCs who have invested in these companies.

Americans don't need to buy their 6th iPhone to save this economy, we just need to focus on what's important. It's very telling of the state of current US politics that when a crisis emerges, everyone says we have to help rich corporations stay rich.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by samsonradu on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:40PM (#22742294)
There was this joke running on Twitter:

If aliens invaded us today our first reaction would be to lower interest rates.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by csomar on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:37PM (#22741582)
> but we're not having deflation.

We are going to have deflation. The stock market already "deflated". Just wait for the rest. Food prices are going to go through the roof (and maybe medical procedures) but everything else is going to get cheaper.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by state_less on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @06:07AM (#22747201)
Stocks are deflated because they aren’t expected to earn because people aren’t out buying and companies aren’t earning. Same for oil. Same for airline tickets. It seems obvious that there is deflation. If you have a good paying job right now, you can buy a lot for less.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by jiaaro on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @06:22PM (#22743356)
Given that food and medicine make up a large portion of spending, I think we'll see something more like, "some prices go up and others go down."

Another big chunk is housing, which as far as I know, shouldn't expect much difference in supply or demand in the short term, though demand may increase (at least as measured by square footage) if people are staying home for a long enough time. That may be countered by the reduction in demand for real estate by businesses, though zoning will probably limit the short term effects that has on housing.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by chewz on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:43PM (#22742330)
> get really really serious inflation of over 2%, 3%, maybe even more than 3%

Really serious inflation is when prices in supermarket change twice a day like in Brasil in the old times. It is Weimar style hyperinflation where everyone want to get rid of paper money right away.

Inflation of 2-3% is actually desirable - it is a sign of healthy, growing economy. Additionaly it is good for public finances as most expenditures is fixed and tax recipes are over the target. Yes it is a kind of tax on people but in healthy economy who cares?

Most central banks and banks in general (also insurers) dread deflation not small inflation.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by voisin on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @11:09PM (#22745237)
> Inflation of 2-3% is actually desirable - it is a sign of healthy, growing economy.

Why 2-3% and not 5-7% or -1-1%? Source for this assertion?

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by chewz on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @12:53AM (#22745824)
Inflation target for most CB..
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by Der_Einzige on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:14PM (#22739798)
At the moment, foreign demand for the dollar is so high that we are experiencing deflation (liquidity is still too low which is entirely why the fed is moving towards negative interest rates), in spite of the money printer going "brrrrr"
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by jnordwick on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:50PM (#22740280)
This is actually more true than people realize. Gold is down to flat even after the the huge Fed announcements. The CRB index has been getting crushed in the last month. But this short-term liquidity demand is going to go away. The real inflation story is going to be when it does and the economy settles down. Then we will have all these programs that pumped huge amounts of money into the system, and unless they are sanitized watch out. I've seen people losing a lot of money on gold calls, but i think the proper time for that is going to be when this short-term credit demand has dried up and business starts returning to normal.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by everybodyknows on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:30PM (#22740784)
The crucial question is when does business return to normal? Credible experts have put the time to a vaccine at 18-24 months. Until then, what sort of "normal" is plausible for say, an airline, or a dentist?
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by toomuchtodo on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:19PM (#22739853)
> the money printer going "brrrrr"

For those who have yet to have the enjoyment of the experience: https://brrr.money/

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by Rury on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:31PM (#22740008)
Can someone explain the 'going brrrrr' meme to me?

I've seen it used in other contexts but can't quite fully grasp what is meant by it.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by toomuchtodo on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:36PM (#22740069)
It's a tongue in cheek reference to the Federal Reserve "running the printing presses", generating as much fiat as necessary to support the US and global economy. With the US dollar not on the gold standard [1], or tied to something physical resource, the Federal Reserve can create money out of thin air without constraint. Ergo, the "money printer goes brrr".

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/23/upshot/coronavirus-fed-ex... (The Fed’s Message: The Money-Printing Presses Are Fired Up and Ready to Go)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by tacon on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:14PM (#22740568)
The sound of a lot of paper money being processed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehFImqzVWos

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by pjc50 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:27PM (#22742170)
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by eloff on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @05:16PM (#22742683)
This seems true, every currency pair against the US dollar that I checked is down substantially. Yen, Cad, Eur, Gbp, among others.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by bwanab on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:43PM (#22740172)
You may be right, but as Lord Keynes said, the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by jnwatson on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:32PM (#22740815)
That printing money necessarily leads to inflation is not true in a situation like this. Inflation happens when there's more and more money being used to chase a finite amount of goods. In our current economic situation, there's a huge pile of money that's not chasing any goods at all.

Like like after the 2008 crisis that didn't lead to inflation, this won't either, as long at they turn off the money printer when people start investing again.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by jjeaff on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:43PM (#22740957)
They aren't really printing money. They are buying up debt, both private and government that will eventually be sold back to the market or will mature this returning that money back, with appreciation, to the fed. Which will then make it disappear just as easily as they created it.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by jnwatson on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:57PM (#22741794)
Sure. The Fed doesn't even own printing presses, the Department of Treasury does. However, in this context, "printing money" doesn't mean making physical pieces of paper. It means creating money out of thin air. It does that by buying debt, which, as you note, can be destroyed just as fast as it is created.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by HorizonXP on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @11:19AM (#22738341)
Upvoted for a wonderful and illustrative explanation. I'm commenting to see if others can corroborate, since I'm ignorant about this topic.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by rayuela on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:09PM (#22738961)
Thank you for commenting. Too many arm chair economist talking out their bums in these threads. I'm always reluctant to even look at these discussions now a days due to the poor quality of the comments, but your comment gives me hope.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by mindslight on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @11:48AM (#22738698)
> in 1 year, your money actually buys you more than it did last year, let's say for instance, 2% more. Under this weird environment

It's worth pointing out that this is not "weird", but rather the natural state of things! The effect is so strong in computing that we still see it, but technological progress means everything in general gets easier to produce.

This policy that "prices must always go up" is itself the aberration, instituted to keep the plebs working "full time" and to undermine their ability to save.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by wsetchell on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:03PM (#22738889)
I don't think deflation is the natural state of things. Even before fiat currency the money supply grew (e.g. gold mines) and we had inflation.

Productivity growth is normal-ish, but the amount you prices have been all over the place throughout history.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by dnautics on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:30PM (#22739275)
Gold mines were not the major cause of inflation during the pre-fiat era. It was almost always deducting the precious metal content of the accepted currency, often to fund things like war.

Deflation should be the natural order of things; for example the unit real cost of food had gone down massively since the first half of the 20th century, which is a huge part of why people don't starve to death during recessions anymore.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by fauigerzigerk on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:18PM (#22740626)
>Deflation should be the natural order of things

Yes, and it is, for existing unchanging things. But as productivity grows we invent and buy new and improved things.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by qeternity on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @06:30PM (#22743439)
I think you’re missing the meat of the argument: relatively speaking these things get cheaper over time. Bread has never been cheaper for most people. The average person can buy 2000 kcal for a few percent of their daily wages. However, in absolute terms, a few bucks today is many multiples of what it would have cost a century ago. The difference is that the increase in wages outpaced the increase in the cost of bread. And that is precisely what drives inflation. And that’s why talking in inflation adjusted terms (“real” terms) is so important. So even though bread costs 10x more than it did a century ago because people are earning 20x more so it’s actually cheaper. Compute works the same. Technological progress makes things cheaper in real terms and this is how quality of life improves.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by dropit_sphere on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:59PM (#22741830)
You can have inflation as a market result though.

A lot of economic activity is adversarial and negative-sum. In the best case it's negative-sum but a multiplier of over 1, like police work. In the worst case it's value-destroying Uber vs Lyft wars, where companies spend on guns to fight each other with, which effort is forever lost for butter. Digital marketers are the soldiers in these battles, along with lawyers and security people.

In other words, just because everyone's rich doesn't mean there won't be someone willing to pay a lot of money to get more of the pie. Which leads to good scarcity (both from a smaller overall pie and the public having less access to it) and more money flying around, and boom, inflation.

We are in this situation today.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by munificent on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:41PM (#22739405)
I think your natural argument rests on the idea that money is somehow a time-independent measure of "effort" but I don't know if that really makes sense.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by mindslight on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:53PM (#22739548)
I agree that is part of my argument. People certainly treat money as if it should be a time-independent measure of effort. Is there another objective metric that you can imagine money representing?

I do not think it makes sense to insist that money can only ever be subjective based on the possibility that transients can occur - eg a factory burning down does cause natural price inflation, but this is an exception rather than the rule.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by munificent on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:26PM (#22739940)
I don't think have the luxury of imagining a metric that we wish money to represent any more than we can say that "the number of rats in New York" means anything in any abstract sense. The value of money is an emergent property of what people do with it and if its numeric measure fails to track our selected "objective metric", it's the fault of our metric, not money itself.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by mindslight on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:31PM (#22740786)
Objective measures are necessary to independently judge the actions of the people in charge of the money supply. To write off objective standards is to hand them an enormous amount of unchecked power, power which will invariably be abused for their gain.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by Supermancho on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:06PM (#22740477)
That is both how it is viewed by the 90% and how it is treated by the entire system. This is the source of "Time is money".
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by AlexandrB on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:33PM (#22740820)
> It's worth pointing out that this is not "weird", but rather the natural state of things!

Except in health care, education, and real-estate - all three of which are needs more fundamental than personal computing or electronics.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by eloff on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @05:26PM (#22742797)
This is a correct and fair observation. How we measure inflation is complex and widely speculated to be gamed by governments worldwide.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by tomp on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:45PM (#22740982)
Good explanation. Also wrong.

Denmark has a negative interest rate [1] but has had a (positive) inflation for a while [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_central_b...

[2] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/FP.CPI.TOTL.ZG?location...

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by dnadler on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:05PM (#22741204)
This doesn't mean that the OP was wrong, but that the negative interest rate policy successfully prevented deflation.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by chewz on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:31PM (#22741507)
Denmark does not use euro and their NIRP had more to do with keeping parity of krona to euro then fighting deflation.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by qeternity on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @06:20PM (#22743338)
You say this like trade imbalances (driven by FX) have no bearing on inflation...it’s the same side of the coin.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by qeternity on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @06:19PM (#22743333)
I said battling deflation. I didn’t say undergoing. The reason you have negative rates are specifically to avoid deflation. It’s like you didn’t even read what I wrote. But thanks for the smug, and wrong, response.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by solaxun on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:39PM (#22740123)
"So, since you don't want to store that money under your mattress"...

I never understood/agreed with this argument. I'd much rather withdraw all my money and keep it in a safe than lock in a loss. I suppose for most people though the minor loss of principal outweighs that inconvenience, but for me, as a matter of principle, I refuse to be paid less than my principal (I didn't mean for that to come out as cheesy as it did).

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by hluska on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:16PM (#22740594)
When I was 19, I had an economics professor who did a great job of explaining that idiom to our young ears.

He talked about feudal times when landowners had to store their gold. So they had to build these massive castles with walls, hire professional soldiers, train their kids to wield weapons and even give some of their land to particularly good soldiers. That system was really expensive so they needed slaves to keep the whole system going. Since all the other landowners knew that you had all your gold in your castle, when they came upon hard times they would often attack. So, you would give your slaves primitive weapons and have them fight to defend ‘their homes’.

From the serf’s perspective, that system sucked. They worked hard, didn’t get paid and occasionally had to go into battle to protect their landowner. After a few generations, when you say “you know, Grandpa died in a battle. Dad and all my uncles died in battles. Three of my siblings died as infants. And they want me to take a fucking spear and protect that system?

Over the years, the system collapsed because slaves could get a better deal in cities. Landowners couldn’t afford their fortunes and castles fell into disrepair.

Basically, banks seem like a real ripoff until you consider the reality of having to store all your money in an environment where everyone knows whereabouts you have it stored!

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by solaxun on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:23PM (#22740694)
That analogy works when everybody is doing the same thing and it's common knowledge that the average person has their assets sitting in their castle, but we're talking about 2020 when that would be the exception, not the norm.

You're acting like I would go on hackernews and tell everybody where my money is or something...

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by bryanrasmussen on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:00PM (#22741843)
I assume if you were going to tell hackernews it would be with a Show HN post for your new pirate app that allows users to find where you have hidden the treasure in your house.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by bitxbitxbitcoin on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @05:17PM (#22742692)
I believe the HN-friendly term for that is "geo-caching."
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by brokenkebab on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @05:37AM (#22747049)
That's more a fairytale, then the explanation to human history at least. It sounds almost as if feudalism gone, because guys with swords had no banks to keep their heavy yellowish coins. Which is not very accurate. FWIW very few feudal families were able to hoard gold, or jewels, and for the most part they kept the same things in their castles a village granddaddy would, just in bigger quantities (i.e. food, and fuel). Coins were as expendable as a sauerkraut, and sausages, just easier to store (but not always as liquid as fantasy series makes us think). Were you a feudal you would care the most for the sole thing able to give you wealth almost every year - land.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by chewz on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:41PM (#22741615)
Actually until industrial revolution the only asset generating yield was not gold but landowning. It wasn't risk less but on average it was the only asset available generating positive returns.

The castles and gold vaults were nice but only as a temporary store of wealth. Most of rulers were constantly in debt used to pay for wars and representation (buying influence).

XIX century introduced bonds which paid yields in coin, bankrupted most of landowners and created this new breed of entrepreneur capitalist.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by WJW on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:51PM (#22740290)
In order to make the calculation 'correctly', don't forget to price in the correct amount of risk. As an example, say there is a 0.2% chance in any given year of your house catching fire, either through your own fault or from a neighboring property on fire. If there is a 50% chance of you being able to rescue the money in such a situation, then that is an estimated 0.1% loss in any given year. There is also a similarly priceable risk for theft etc, which would probably increase with the amount stored. If it becomes known that there is 500k in cash stored in your house, there are probably plenty of people greedy or desperate enough to break in with heavy tooling when you're out and steal the whole safe.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by solaxun on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:11PM (#22740528)
Well, while we're in the realm of discussing tail risks - what is the risk that if your assets exceed FDIC insurance limits, the bank you have them in defaults?

Since we're discussing a negative rate environment, presumably this is a stressful time for the economy making this more likely than history would indicate. If you have your assets at multiple institutions to stay under the limits, what's the probability of one of those failing, and what's the probability the FDIC fails?

Depending on how negative rates are, the math can quickly turn those probabilities you outlined above into risks I'm willing to take.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by fauigerzigerk on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:50PM (#22740281)
So you would rather buy a safe and take out insurance than pay a fee to someone who already has both (i.e a bank)?
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by eloff on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @05:22PM (#22742758)
This is exactly what German banks are doing rather than parking their euros with the central bankhttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-31/german-ba...
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by bryanlarsen on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:46PM (#22740207)
That safe and ancillary services like armed guards or insurance could quite likely cost more than 0.5% per annum.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by MuffinFlavored on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:17PM (#22739828)
> The Fed is unlikely to go negative as they face a very different beast.

Does the United States risk doing damage to our currency and how other nations use it with the stimulus/money printing that is going on?

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by pjc50 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:33PM (#22742219)
Like the old joke about only having to outrun the other guy but not the bear, the US is only at risk if it ends up less stable than somewhere else and doesn't manage to trip them up on the way down. It's still hard to see any more realistic alternative; the EU is struggling with the same crisis, and the Chinese government doesn't even want its currency externalised.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by qeternity on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @06:21PM (#22743352)
Unfortunately not. The US is the tallest midget for the time being, and that’s unlikely to change in the coming decades.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by 6keZbCECT2uB on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @11:57AM (#22738816)
When was the last time that the United States had a deflationary period during good market conditions?

This might be a pretty new condition for some people.

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by rayuela on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:04PM (#22738896)
What do you mean by "good market conditions?" Also, we're definitely not in deflationary conditions - this implies a decrease in prices of goods. The shock to supply chains is actually going to make things more expensive. What we're really looking at is the possibility of stagflation - inflation + fall in demand.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by Der_Einzige on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:15PM (#22739812)
Check currency trading platforms - we are deflationary as of this moment.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by rayuela on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:15PM (#22740583)
??? That's not how you measure deflation....

edit: for those wondering you wanna look at a Consumer Price Index (CPI) to dertemine inflation/deflation

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by abstractbarista on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:31PM (#22739286)
I'd just put it in a safe, and work from home with guns by my side. Saves the extra 0.5%. Rest of my money is in equities anyways, so I really only need the "emergency savings" in cash.

(Obviously big businesses can't do this.)

Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by Someone on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:50PM (#22739496)
With $100k emergency savings, 0.5% is $500 a year. Wouldn’t be worth it for me to stay home and alert 24/7.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by triangleman on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @10:03PM (#22744893)
Your average gun costs like $500 too.
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by krallja on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:58PM (#22741124)
you’re gonna shoot the fire out? shoot away the flood? or tornado?
Re:Ask HN: How to prosper under negative interest rates? by joshu on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @12:24AM (#22745672)
what about the 30-50 feral hogs that run into my yard within 3-5 mins while my small kids play?