News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by hprotagonist on Friday March 27, 2020 @01:30PM (#22704884)
Couple of thoughts:

- I think we need to know a LOT more about the sensitivity, specificity, and accuracy of every test that's being deployed right now. I am 100% willing to believe that "testing negative and then positive" means "you have a pretty low viral load and our tests suck more than we're willing to admit out loud right now".

- I think we need to be very clear that there are two kinds of tests: "you have an active SARS-CoV-2 infection right now, and also "you have once had a SARS-CoV-2 infection in the semi-recent past". One tells you who needs care, one tells you who is at least temporarily immune we hope.

Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by dboreham on Friday March 27, 2020 @01:38PM (#22704951)
The article mentions RNA implying that this is the PCR test not an Antibody test. False positives exist with the PCR test. Information I could find suggests the primary cause is sample contamination. So running the test multiple times through different labs and clinicians is an obvious workaround.
Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by frabbit on Friday March 27, 2020 @02:02PM (#22705166)
Surely this is not a false-positive, but rather a false-negative?

That is, the patients were observed clinically to have caught and recovered from the virus, yet the test shows no trace of the viral infection.

Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by lostlogin on Friday March 27, 2020 @02:33PM (#22705460)
> Surely this is not a false-positive, but rather a false-negative?

Both are possible and either mess it all up.

Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by unwoundmouse on Friday March 27, 2020 @03:38PM (#22706077)
This is the correct answer
Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by dnautics on Friday March 27, 2020 @04:16PM (#22706414)
More likely sample degradation as well. Rna is notorious for being extremely fragile exactly when you need it not to be and extremely robust when you don't. Academic rna labs have a reputation for being clean freaks, and there was a spate of spurious observations when rt(rt)pcr became a thing ten or so years ago... I'm still not convinced of rt/rt results performed by run of the mill labs, generally speaking.
Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by Spooky23 on Friday March 27, 2020 @03:02PM (#22705763)
Even a common well established test like a quick strep test has a significant (10% iirc) false negative rate. I'm sure that a rapidly developed test to an emerging target is going to have a significant error rate.
Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by baxtr on Friday March 27, 2020 @02:04PM (#22705181)
In general PCR tests are highly sensitive. Even smallest viral loads can be detected

(Edit) added in general above due to valid points in the comments below

Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by im3w1l on Friday March 27, 2020 @02:13PM (#22705257)
The PCR can detect if there is virus in the swab. But the swab may not have scooped up any virus even though the person had some.
Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by hprotagonist on Friday March 27, 2020 @02:41PM (#22705539)
my longstanding argument against theranos, by the way (like, since 2005), was "look. if i go down to the beach with a bucket and take a bucket of water and put it in my super accurate shark detector van, it doesn't mean the beach is safe to swim at!"
Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by zerocrates on Friday March 27, 2020 @03:47PM (#22706150)
To be fair at some level that's an argument against blood testing in general.
Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by hprotagonist on Friday March 27, 2020 @04:19PM (#22706443)
not really. it's just an admission that sampling frequency matters.
Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by daotoad on Friday March 27, 2020 @02:51PM (#22705645)
Unless you dilute the water until it becomes homeopathic anti-shark water.
Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by baxtr on Friday March 27, 2020 @02:39PM (#22705517)
That’s right!
Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by bewaretheirs on Friday March 27, 2020 @03:17PM (#22705900)
They're highly sensitive to the presence of the target DNA or RNA sequence in the sample well. But they can't easily tell if the target sequence they amplified came from the patient's sample or from other potential sources of contamination in the lab (the test, after all, makes billions of copies of the target DNA sequence), whether from other positive tests or from positive controls.
Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by W4ldi on Friday March 27, 2020 @03:56PM (#22706223)
But that doesn't explain false negatives, does it?
Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by bewaretheirs on Friday March 27, 2020 @09:05PM (#22708332)
They typically do one swab of the nasopharynx (upper back of the throat, up above the soft palate). You might have the virus elsewhere but not there.

Saw reports that bronchoalveolar lavage (introducing and then suctioning out fluid from a branch of the lung) is better at picking up virus if it's present -- but it's much more time consuming, more invasive, and much less pleasant for the patient than sticking a swab up your nose. Not something you're going to do in a parking lot in a drive through testing center for someone only showing mild symptoms.

There are always compromises.

Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by baxtr on Saturday March 28, 2020 @04:59AM (#22710032)
It depends on the time of the illness. Roughly my understanding is: 1st week - high virus load in the nasopharyngeal area. 2nd - almost no virus load in the nasopharyngeal area, high virus load in the lungs
Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by omnipugent on Friday March 27, 2020 @02:56PM (#22705704)
Can't PCR tests detect damaged RNA and report that as a positive?

https://www.aim-med.org/hiv-rna-test/

Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by hprotagonist on Friday March 27, 2020 @02:07PM (#22705200)
if:

- you do them right

- your reagents are good

- the kit was assembled properly

- there's no contamination in the machines

- you got a good sample

- ...

The capability for a highly sensitive and accurate test in no way guarantees that a randomly sampled administration of that test is going to meet the high standard that the test may be capable of.

Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by twic on Friday March 27, 2020 @02:18PM (#22705304)
And if you swabbed an infected part of the body in the first place!

In 205 patients with proven COVID-19 [...] bronchoalveolar lavage fluid was positive in 14/15 (93%), sputum 75/104 (72%), nasal swabs 5/8 (63%), brush biopsy 6/13 (46%), pharyngeal swabs 126/398 (32%), feces 44/153 (29%), blood 3/307 (1%), and urine 0/72 (0%).

https://www.jwatch.org/na51116/2020/03/17/pharyngeal-and-nas...

Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by hinkley on Friday March 27, 2020 @02:51PM (#22705636)
Hol' up.

> blood 3/307 (1%)

Why isn't their blood rotten with virus?

Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by gojomo on Friday March 27, 2020 @03:01PM (#22705754)
I suspect it's because this virus is optimized to enter cells that line the lungs/respiratory tract, then also sheds back that same way. Meanwhile, cells in, and along, the bloodstream aren't infected – and are most-trafficked by the body's immune response, including virus-destroying antibodies.

(Why are rodents more prevalent in the walls/crawlspaces of a dwelling, rather than the hallways?)

Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by hinkley on Friday March 27, 2020 @03:46PM (#22706140)
But the lungs are full of blood, that's how we breath.

So it's spreading mucosally or through connective tissue?

Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by gojomo on Friday March 27, 2020 @05:07PM (#22706913)
Sure, but if an initially-infected respiratory cell releases its "baby coronaviruses" out to the respiratory linings, away from the blood, they'll find lots more of the respiratory cell surfaces they're optimized to infect, and maybe get a ride out to other hosts on sputum.

To the extent an infected cell releases its "baby coronaviruses" into the blood stream, they find a hot, chemically active environment – which is already inhospitable to their continued survival – plus a relative dearth of the respiratory cell-walls they're optimized to enter, plus a growing number of hostile antibodies.

(I don't know if a coronavirus-hijacked cell can direct its fresh viruses one way or the other, but it'd probably prefer to do that if it could, and I can understand why viruses wouldn't persist long in blood compared to respiratory-membranes.)

The coronaviruses are definitely active in mucosal surfaces, and carried by mucus. I haven't seen anything about, nor do I think any activity is necessarily implied, in other connective tissues.

Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by dmm10 on Friday March 27, 2020 @06:23PM (#22707458)
As far as I know the route of SARS-Cov-2 spreading in the human body isn't known beyond the change in locality of symptomatic expression with progression of Covid-19 (upper respiratory tract to lower respiratory tract.)

Research has shown (1) the distribution of ACE2 protein, the functional receptor for SARS-Cov and SARS-Cov-2 (2), to include various human organs (oral and nasal mucosa, nasopharynx, lung, stomach, small intestine, colon, skin, lymph nodes, thymus, bone marrow, spleen, liver, kidney, and brain) along with arterial and venous endothelial cells and arterial smooth muscle cells in all organs studied. And ACE2 mRNA has been found in virtually all organs. So there is definitely the potential for cells in the circulatory system binding viruses.

What may be significant here is the concentration of ACE2 protein in cell membranes. One Chinese analysis of a group of 170 Covid-19 fatalities(3) found half of the cases suffered from hypertension. ACE inhibitors are a class of medication prescribed for lowering blood pressure and according to models they increase the concentration of ACE2 protein in lower respiratory tract cells. Given that fatality results from respiratory distress originating in the lower respiratory tract and that not all cases progress to the lower respiratory tract it seems possible that the spread of the virus within the body may be related to concentration of ACE2 protein in cells. The disease progression would also support mucosal transport of the virus within individuals the same as between them.

(1) Tissue distribution of ACE2 protein, the functional receptor for SARS coronavirus. A first step in understanding SARS pathogenesis. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15141377 (2) Structure, Function, and Antigenicity of the SARS-CoV-2 Spike Glycoprotein https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009286742... (3) Controversial Study Links COVID-19 Severity to ACEIs and ARBs (Newsweek, March 24, 2020)

Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by frenchy on Friday March 27, 2020 @03:07PM (#22705814)
If you're looking for a chemical explaination, I don't know, but the virus can work it's way around quite fine using the lymphatic system, so there's no "fitness" reason that would make it need to hang out in the blood.
Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by seraphsf on Friday March 27, 2020 @03:01PM (#22705757)
Because it’s a respiratory disease
Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by usrusr on Friday March 27, 2020 @03:50PM (#22706174)
Even if you do everything perfectly a PCR test will still not be able to tell working virus copies from shattered remains.
Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by Kye on Friday March 27, 2020 @02:49PM (#22705615)
Or with a well-known phrase: garbage in, garbage out.
Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by aqme28 on Friday March 27, 2020 @02:51PM (#22705647)
Even a 99.9% sensitivity will miss a few times when you're testing millions of people.
Re:Mystery in Wuhan: recovered coronavirus patients test neg... by klmadfejno on Friday March 27, 2020 @04:51PM (#22706764)
Suppose you get the disease and develop antibodies for it. Your body is pretty darn good at fighting the virus and won't get sick from it easily. But, you're in a place with a huge viral load exposure.

Wouldn't that imply there should be some of the virus in your lungs? Test accuracy aside, is the definition of "positive" even clear?