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Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by agloeregrets on Thursday March 19, 2020 @04:53PM (#22631614)
Multitasking was needed and Be could have filled the Darwin gap but what they really needed was a leadership kick in the head. Steve was hired, almost immediately led a coup that ended up with Gil gone, the board disbanded and him with near pure control over the company. He fired, chopped, focused, and brought operations to the point where they were not lighting their cash on hand on fire. The business turnaround story is amazing, forget the creative factor and all that, the only reason Apple is still around is that he walked in and rapidly course corrected a company that wasn’t even his anymore. He wasn’t anything when Gil bought NeXT, his title was just “Advisor” to the CEO. A hilarious title. The magic of the next purchase was that it saved Apple way more money than it cost by effectively letting in a “Good” virus that infected the company’s management and cut the cruft fast. ‘97 Steve had had 10 years of startup OPs pain under his belt.
Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by chx on Thursday March 19, 2020 @06:20PM (#22632362)
https://youtu.be/FF-tKLISfPE

Transcription at: https://austenallred.com/steve-jobs-insult-response-transcri...

> The hardest thing is, how does that fit into a cohesive larger vision that’s gonna allow you to sell 8 billion dollars — 10 billion dollars of product a year? One of the things I’ve always found is that you’ve got to start with the customer experience and work backwards to the technology. You can’t start with the technology and try to figure out where you’re going to try to sell it. I’ve made this mistake probably more than anybody else in this room, and I’ve got the scar tissue to prove it.

Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by gumby on Thursday March 19, 2020 @05:49PM (#22632123)
I agree -- I like Gasee and BeOS but there's no chance he would have managed to do the same with Apple. The modern Apple, like the original Apple, is Job's creation. In a way that very very few CEOs (who get all the credit regardless) can say.
Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by sjwright on Friday March 20, 2020 @01:01AM (#22635064)
Indeed. BeOS would have made Macintosh as successful as the Amiga.
Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by lproven on Saturday March 21, 2020 @06:56PM (#22650979)
A good, pithy summary.

BeOS was a beautiful OS, my favourite ever x86 OS.

But the _other_ key thing most people miss is that NeXT also had amazing, industry-beating development tools. Be didn't.

Both BeOS and NeXTstep were amazing OSes, but NeXT offered 2 other things as well as a great OS:

• best-of-breed dev tools, including Interface Builder

• Steve Jobs.

No contest, I'm afraid.

Even if personally I preferred BeOS.

Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by sjwright on Friday March 20, 2020 @01:00AM (#22635059)
Be was a tech demo at best. It looked finished on the surface but had less than 10% of what a complete operating system needs in terms of feature depth, libraries and extensive real word testing.

Steve Jobs was utterly critical, but NeXT technology was also insanely valuable.

Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by kls on Friday March 20, 2020 @12:25PM (#22638858)
Right it was a great single user workstation, but had no where near the underlining stack to compete in a corp environment. Be did one thing and, did that one thing light years better than anything on the market. next was the clear choice for what apple needed to stay competitive.
Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by icedchai on Thursday March 19, 2020 @05:33PM (#22631988)
Classic MacOS had multitasking (cooperative...), but it was missing memory protection. The same was true of earlier 68K-based OSes (Atari, Amiga.)
Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by btilly on Thursday March 19, 2020 @07:53PM (#22633046)
The problem with cooperative multitasking is that a SINGLE poorly behaved process in the background locks up the whole operating system. This leads to a horrible user experience.

As a user of the old Mac OS 8 I had no idea what the cause was. I just knew that once I ran into the spinning wheel of doom I was likely to have to reboot. Again.

Preemptive multi-tasking is worse in every way except that one. I mean that you get more bugs, have more overhead from locking, less throughput, and so on. But when the application runs into trouble, the operating system is still able to react to you.

Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by icedchai on Thursday March 19, 2020 @10:56PM (#22634213)
Yes, the Amiga had preemptive multitasking, but no memory protection, and the situation wasn't really any better. A single rogue process could bring down the whole system by overwriting parts of the OS.
Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by pjmlp on Friday March 20, 2020 @04:44AM (#22636050)
Guru Meditation :)
Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by lproven on Saturday March 21, 2020 @06:54PM (#22650958)
It wasn't unique to the 68K world.

Windows/286 (from long before Windows 3) could multitask too, but not very stably. No memory protection.

Acorn RISC OS -- the original ARM OS -- had _both_ cooperative and (for command-prompt windows) pre-emptive multitasking, but again, no memory protection.

A big part of the problem was that the 68000 had no MMU. Nor did the 68010 or the 68020. One only came onboard as standard with the 68030 -- analogous to Intel's 80386DX -- and then it was too late: to rework all the existing OSes would have been both a huge amount of work, and badly broken backwards-compatibility with the large existing software libraries.

Whereas the PC industry more or less rebooted the OS stack (eventually), with a new, graphical OS that could use the hardware multitasking features of the 386 if it got one, and do without if it didn't.

This was Windows 3, and it evolved into Windows 9x. Meanwhile in the background Microsoft frantically worked on turning OS/2 3, the CPU-independent version, into something saleable.

OS/2 3 became OS/2 NT became Windows NT and the rest is history.

Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by kls on Friday March 20, 2020 @12:22PM (#22638815)
A big piece to that power play was Bill Gates backing Job with capital. It was a win win for both of them, Steve used it to wrangle political control of the company and Gates used it to stave off an impending anti-trust litigation. Had Steve not had the capital from Gates a year after rejoining, the story would have been much different.
Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by WalterBright on Friday March 20, 2020 @04:53AM (#22636079)
Proof that a good CEO is worth the money.
Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by usefulcat on Friday March 20, 2020 @07:26AM (#22636681)
Now all we need is a reliable way to identify a 'good' CEO without the benefit of hindsight.
Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by WalterBright on Friday March 20, 2020 @02:24PM (#22640034)
Not just anybody is hired to be a CEO. A candidate has to have a track record of success. That's how.
Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by usefulcat on Friday March 20, 2020 @02:40PM (#22640270)
If you know of a reliable way to identify CEOs who can effect the kind of turnaround that Jobs executed at Apple, then, with respect, I tend to think you may be in the wrong business :)

My point was that the rarity of that kind of turnaround is strong evidence that that level of CEO performance is not even close to being predictable.

Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by WalterBright on Friday March 20, 2020 @02:47PM (#22640349)
Most CEOs run their companies successfully. The ones that don't get the boot and are not likely to be recruited for another CEO position. After all, would you?
Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by nl on Friday March 20, 2020 @07:33PM (#22642829)
Counter example: John Scully
Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by WalterBright on Friday March 20, 2020 @08:09PM (#22643052)
Who'd you hire for the top job - someone with a track record of success, or another with a track record of failure?
Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by nl on Friday March 20, 2020 @08:32PM (#22643173)
I think I missed the bit where anyone said anything about hiring someone with a track record of failure?

A good track record maybe necessary but is clearly insufficient.

Having said that - ironically - Job himself wasn't exactly an obviously successful CEO prior to his return to Apple. He'd been fired from Apple previously, NeXT was one of many workstation manufactures and less successful than many direct competitors (eg Silicon Graphics).

Eric Schmidt is another example. Prior to Google he was CEO at Novell where (quoting Wikipedia): "He presided over a period of decline at Novell where its IPX protocol was being replaced by open TCP/IP products, while at the same time Microsoft was shipping free TCP/IP stacks in Windows 95, making Novell much less profitable."

Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by WalterBright on Friday March 20, 2020 @11:44PM (#22644219)
Jobs was very successful with Pixar.

Let me put it another way. Can we reasonably assume that people who find themselves in the position of needing to hire a CEO with their own money are not complete morons and will spend more than 5 minutes thinking about it?

Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by nl on Saturday March 21, 2020 @01:00AM (#22644590)
Let me put it another way. Can we reasonably assume that people who find themselves in the position of needing to hire a CEO with their own money are not complete morons and will spend more than 5 minutes thinking about it?

I'm lost. The original question was:

Now all we need is a reliable way to identify a 'good' CEO without the benefit of hindsight.

Your response was "A candidate has to have a track record of success."

People are pointing out that doesn't appear to be sufficient.

So I agree that people hiring CEOs aren't morons and think about it. But I'm still not sure what indicators are useful outside track record, or indeed if you think that is sufficient.

Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by WalterBright on Saturday March 21, 2020 @02:04AM (#22644858)
> Your response was "A candidate has to have a track record of success." People are pointing out that doesn't appear to be sufficient.

I didn't say it was sufficient. For example, if I say "an airplane has to have wings" would you argue that isn't all it needs? Of course not.

There's a reason that English has the words "all", "only", etc. For example, there's a difference between "people like hamburgers" and "all people like hamburgers." There's a difference between "choosy people choose cheese" and "only choosy people choose cheese." English is not a programming language.

I suggest interpreting my messages from a presumption that neither am I a moron nor are people who select executives.

Re:A secret call to Andy Grove that may have helped Apple bu... by nl on Saturday March 21, 2020 @03:45AM (#22645205)
I do understand English, but I don't understand what your point is in this thread?

You've said "A candidate has to have a track record of success. That's how", but every question people have raised to try and identify additional points the response hasn't really added any additional information.

If your point that "people who [successfully] select CEOs" have some additional criteria that they use (outside the track record) then: Yes! Great!

What is it?