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Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by Galanwe on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @03:29AM (#22602579)
> Microsoft doesn’t do everything right but the GitHub acquisition has honestly gone better than I ever expected. Rather than forcing GitHub to adopt Microsoft centric policies, Microsoft has adopted more GitHub stuff, especially from a product POV. GitHub still runs as a separate company (different logins and health care and hiring systems) with its own policies and point of view.

That's what we said about the Skype acquisition too.

"It's different this time, it will run independently, for once Microsoft won't interfere and destroy the acquired company".

3 years later (I was there), 50% of Skype original management and developers left. All the major new projects of Skype turn out to be integration with the endless already existing Microsoft products: integration with Link, integration with microsoft ID, integration with Microsoft UI, etc...

5 years later, Skype is dead... but everyone left already.

Good job Microsoft.

Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by tikiman163 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @11:51AM (#22606079)
Skype is crap, it was doomed to die around that time frame anyway. If anything, Microsoft Business kept Skype going longer than it would have otherwise.

Seriously, go use products like Google Hangouts, Slack or Microsoft Teams (Microsofts's surprisingly better clone of Slack) and then tell me that Skype was ruined by integrating with Microsoft's other product base. The closest argument you might be able to make is that Skype could have developed new features or updated its UI and stayed competitive, but that wouldn't give them the competitive edge that it's competitors nearly all had in terms of being backed by major tech companies. Additionally, the major revenue source was Business tier use, which Microsoft dramatically improved by integrating it with their other cloud-based business suite applications.

Microsoft didn't kill Skype, if anything they extended its life expectancy and value in markets that actually paid to use it. It's dead/dying now because better tools have been developed and marketed to replace it. That's just standard product life cycle.

Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by Summershard on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:07PM (#22607175)
> Microsoft Teams (Microsofts's surprisingly better clone of Slack)

Personal experience, but I have not found a single person who likes MS Teams. Usually people around me say that Slack is ok-ish, while MS Teams is crap.

Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by atraac on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:45PM (#22607728)
Agree, Teams is an absolute shitshow of a communicator. Everything's wrong about it, from unintuitive UX, incredibly slow UI, up to terrible API design where even making a simple bot is laughably hard(try working with 'chats' instead of 'teams' or 'channels' and you'll see). Recent days also proved how bad infrastructure they have, they're not capable at handling bigger traffic at all. I've used Slack equally long before that and it was amazingly good in comparison(still not perfect though).
Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by kuraudoOishii on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @02:22PM (#22608259)
I'll tell you one thing it does better: audio/video conferencing. We went full WFH and the usual suspects couldn't support us, but we discovered that teams is a thing we pay for and operates like a champ, haha.
Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by gtyras2mrs on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @02:57PM (#22608753)
While Teams isn't as good as Slack IMO, it is better than the experience of using Skype (Lync) For Business by a country mile.

I've the misfortune of being forced to use Skype and I would kill to have it replaced with Teams at my workplace.

Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by Galanwe on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @12:05AM (#22613513)
Skype for Business is not Skype. It's just a rebranding of Lync that happened after Skype acquisition.

There is a half-baked link between Skype and Lync to make it seem like it's the same product. This link is all shitty mainly because Lync and Skype work completely differently, and even simple things like call signaling have to deal with years of legacy Microsoft SIP extensions that were punched into Lync.

I remember the first time we received access to the Lync code repository. That stuff was a multi-GB (!!!) repository that contained files, promo videos, PDFs, code, etc. That tells you much about the development practices behind Lync.

Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by shifto on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @05:51AM (#22615006)
I still run a Lync Server 2010 at home to chat with my wife using a MSN looking messenger. We used to chat a lot using MSN messenger and this is a way to hold onto it. I don't mind Lync at all!
Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by graphememes on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:18PM (#22607328)
I actually enjoy it, more than slack.
Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by cocoa19 on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @12:10AM (#22613542)
You haven't suffered worse tools. Have you ever heard of Lotus Notes / Lotus Sametime?

It's not great, but in the corporate space, Teams does an OK job, and MS is a reputable company for B2B.

Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by legooolas on Monday March 23, 2020 @08:13AM (#22663243)
"Better than Lotus Notes" is not a high bar.
Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by Wilem82 on Thursday March 19, 2020 @04:46PM (#22631556)
> Seriously, go use products like Google Hangouts

Corporate standard at my place of work. I hate Hangouts with a passion. It's the worst messenger, feature- and UI- wise that I've seen for years.

> Microsoft Teams (Microsofts's surprisingly better clone of Slack)

No it isn't. Used Teams at another company which adopted it as the standard. Couple of years ago. Feature-wise it was like a proof of concept, very early access.

> Additionally, the major revenue source was Business tier use, which Microsoft dramatically improved by integrating it with their other cloud-based business suite applications.

Again, I worked at another company where Skype for Business was the standard and nobody ever used it unless they needed formal IT help or something.

All the teams I'm acquainted with at my current place refuse to communicate on Hangouts and, in violation of corporate policies use something else like Slack or Mattermost.

Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by wwn_se on Friday March 20, 2020 @08:17AM (#22636922)
Teams a few years ago is not a good comparison it has evolved a lot since just a year ago. Wile slack is getting more bloated and messy, through currently okey to use.
Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by CSMastermind on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @07:22AM (#22603766)
I'm not at Microsoft anymore but I was there when Skype got acquired and I had a bunch of friends who worked on it.

You have to understand that the technology underlying Skype at the time was very brittle and poorly designed.

Google almost bought Skype before Microsoft did and backed out after they got a look at the code.

When Microsoft acquired it Skype was routing its traffic over port 80 for example.

Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by Galanwe on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @09:16AM (#22604574)
> You have to understand that the technology underlying Skype at the time was very brittle and poorly designed. > When Microsoft acquired it Skype was routing its traffic over port 80 for example.

__I have to understand__ ?

Who is saying this? do you have any credentials / knowledge of Skype technology? My understanding is that you only report indirect discussion from "your friends who worked on it"?

Having been there, I would say quite the opposite.

Skype had pretty intricate means to bypass NAT to NAT clients. I would even go as far as saying that Skype P2P connectivity tricks were top notch, considering the incredible amount of different network setups that clients could face. Even in the weirdest conditions, you could trust your Skype client to somehow find a way to get the call through. This was through an immense collection of in-house-trial-and-error-STUN-hole-punching like techniques.

Now I can understand that for people outside of the peer to peer connectivity world, these techniques could seem completely foreign and brittle, but it's not. It's the world of internet clients we live in. It's not related to Skype, it's the route all peer to peer clients have to deal with. If you don't want that, don't go peer to peer.

> Google almost bought Skype before Microsoft did and backed out after they got a look at the code.

Where did you get that information? I had never heard of that interpretation of the story before.

My view on this is that Google considered buying Skype, but backed up because they wanted to have a cloud based service, instead of a p2p one. Microsoft was in the same state of mind, but decided to go along and migrate Skype to be a cloud service, which they did.

Now if you really want to discuss technical details and the state of Microsoft/Azure at that time, I would be pleased to do so.

Microsoft started the migration of Skype to the cloud at a time Azure was just a big beta test. Nothing was working properly, the tools were sub-par or in-existent. Nothing was reliable. You would deploy Azure services through remote desktop automated by PowerShell scripts. Managing databases was done through in-browser silverlight clients - yes, that was already EOL at the time, but that was the only way to perform DB queries with a UI.

When complaining about the deplorable half-baked status of the tooling and cloud services that we were required to use to migrate Skype, the only response was "Yeahhh, Eat your own dog food".

Thanks but no thanks.

All the great Skype engineers left in the two years after the start of the migration to Azure - mostly to join Twilio.

Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by tikiman163 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:07PM (#22606305)
Here is an article from Wired with quotes from the Google Product Manager that did the due diligence when they considered buying Skype:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/2011/05/why-googl...

Key points:

He did not think Skypes p2p communication was a good fit for Google, going so far as to say it ate up bandwidth and was like an old technology.

The PM's remarks could be summarized as saying the basic p2p communication architecture was overly and only used in order to avoid a cloud/server based architecture.

Basically, the PM thought Skypes architecture and code base couldn't effectively scale or meet real world business requirements that people would pay for.

Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by gumby on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:21PM (#22607355)
It could be true (and frankly I certainly can believe it!) but an article from someone who didn't buy a company could also be a post hoc justification for why they didn't get the deal.

Like VCs who try to invest in a company but lose the deal (or never get to see it at all): "Oh FooBbarApp? Yeah, we passed"

Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by grandpoobah on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @07:26AM (#22603786)
Isn't using port 80 a trick to avoid being blocked by firewalls?
Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by CSMastermind on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @07:39AM (#22603851)
People would say that but most firewalls block _incoming_ port 80 connections so that logic never held much weight.
Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by jsight on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:35AM (#22605165)
That isn't really relevant to the problem they were working around. The problem is that many firewalls block outbound ports other than port 80, 443, and some other very common ports.

Put another way, if both sides block 80 incoming, their only hope is fancy NAT-punching techniques.

But those NAT-punching tricks are useless if they are using a port that is completely blocked on the outbound side.

Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by abstractbarista on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:22AM (#22605058)
Many networks like in hotels and airplanes only allow out on port 80 or 443.
Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by abstractbarista on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:22AM (#22605051)
Port 80 isn't necessarily a problem? Sounds like a great way to get around restrictive network devices like firewalls. Encryption is a thing right?
Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by robocat on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @04:06AM (#22602761)
> That's what we said about the Skype acquisition too.

“On 10 May 2011, Microsoft Corporation acquired Skype Communications, S. à r.l for US$8.5 billion”

I think Microsoft has changed significantly in the last decade.

I’m quietly hopeful the npm acquisition will go well for us (although I still hold some serious grudges about Microsoft’s past behaviour).

Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by dcabrejas on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @04:37AM (#22602926)
Let's face it. Microsoft is a business and at any point in the future it might change course if it has economic preasures to do so. It can only keep being "good" as long as it has a stream of money coming in that allows this to happen. So the important thing is how they make npm economically viable. They need to have a good business model. I can only imagine GitHub was economically viable when they bought it, hence they left it run indpendently since it provides a revenue stream.
Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by teknopaul on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @05:31AM (#22603181)
"So the important thing is how they make npm economically viable."

Thats not the important thing, thats the problem. Npm could easily be an open source client. Contain less code and be better. And have a mirors system like every other repo so it does not need money for hosting.

Npm wanted to control nodejs and make money out it. And they have.

Microsoft purchased that control and plan to make money out of it.

This is bad news for OS dev.

Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by paavohtl on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @08:43AM (#22604324)
> Npm could easily be an open source client

The NPM client is and has always been open source: https://github.com/npm/cli.

> Npm wanted to control nodejs and make money out it. And they have.

In what way, other than offering private package hosting for enterprises?

Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by cutemonster on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @06:34PM (#22611313)
By selling / "doing an exit" to GitHub?
Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by skrebbel on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @08:39AM (#22604282)
> Npm wanted to control nodejs and make money out it.

What does this even mean?

Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by teknopaul on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @07:08PM (#22611633)
It means Npm always wanted to be the "one true source" for nodejs code. No matter who wrote the code.

No interest in mirrors from day one.

Npm sold out to Microsoft and got paid. All that free community effort to stop Npms "crashiness" got sold to Microsoft for dollar.

Nodejs went to the Linux foundation.

Npm went to Microsoft.

Suprised?

Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by skrebbel on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @11:44AM (#22617870)
That's not what I asked.

You said they controlled nodejs, and that they somehow earned money by controlling nodejs. I think that neither of those has ever been the case.

Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by crtlaltdel on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @07:48AM (#22603930)
i’ve been at three companies that acquired small shops. that 5y horizon to the kill-decision lines up with my experience. most recently i worked with a company (mid size) that had been acquired two years prior by a very large international organization. “its great, they let us do what we do best and are excited to adopt some of our practices”. Two weeks later the senior leadership was shuffled and the mothership was changing things to better match their process, etc.
Re:NPM Is Joining GitHub by 2rsf on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @07:30AM (#22603811)
My thoughts as well. I've been at Skype when it was still running semi autonomously, when I left we were part of the office organization.