The very fact that we are discussing this is super silly and shitty. The whole world should be working together, not competing with each other and not trying to screw each other over.

This type of competition is harmful at this point. And deeply stupid. Cooperation needs to become a thing again.

It’s not “at this point,” it’s “at this stage of world connectivity and interdependence” (where we’ve been for the past twenty+ years).

That sounds like a terrible way to play the iterated prisoners dilemma.

If the USA tries to screw over Germany like this, Germany could equally try screw over the USA - and they're the one with the vaccine company.

China is going to win this. USA mishandles the pandemic, blocks the EU-US transit way after it could help anything, and now pulls stunts like this. Meanwhile, China is restarting their economy, and is scoring points by sending teams of doctors and hundreds of tons of medical equipment to countries around the world, including two in EU.

When the dust settles, I think Europe may end up reconsidering who to side with.

China is run by an authoritarian extreme nationalistic government that tortures its citizen that dare to critise it. That is widely known. Europe will stay a close ally with the USA and the cooperation will resume to normality once the USA has recovered from its recent personality cult and government running on lies.

None of this however is relevant in this context - what is relevant is that even with 3 months of warnings western democracies utterly failed to prepare.

We love our freedom and our ideals but our execution sucks and it has nothing to do with China being authoritarian at this point.

Taiwan is a democracy and they handled it just fine.

No, we have elected clowns who tell us sweet lies we want to hear rather than the information we need to adapt to a changing world and now we have the worst aspects of both systems. Shit, in the US the local officials wanted to do the right thing while the dear leader screwed around blocking them, dismissed the scientists and acting uncontrolled and unchecked supported by his blindly loyal party officials and supported by his quasi-state-TV channel - that's like reverse China, the stupid version. We are really not in any position to give lectures right now.

So let's stop shouting China is bad reflexively whenever our own faults are kicking us in the ass and actually demonstrate that our system is better - because right now, it is not - and a lot more people are about to die because of it.

And right next there is a whole host of other risks queued up that will hit us in the same way- antibiotics resistance, resource exhaustion, pensions, climate change, etc. If this was the preview of how we will adapt to these challenges - ignoring them and letting them wash over us to not inconvenience the existing economy - I think China has a much better chance of adapting right now than we have.

We are lucky in a way to get this virus as a reality check and not something worse... but even this will leave millions dead, many unnecessary due to lack of preparation during the time paid for with the lives of many people in Wuhan and failure to heed science.

This is very well phrased. I've been thinking similar thoughts, but it's hard to put them into words. Democracy and freedom of expression is fantastic, but this crisis reveals the failings of modern democracy in a spectacular fashion.

Especially in the places that have had the most spectacular demonstrations of this recently; the UK and the USA. It's tragic, but as you said, this is a mild wakeup call. Hope it's heeded, but I'm not too optimistic.

Is this sarcasm? Because, honestly, at this point I can not tell.

Yes, China is doing terrible things – and also many good things. So is the US.

Of course as citizens of the western world it's easier to connect with western governments, weigh more heavily against the atrocities of the others and brush over our own systems shortcomings.

Lest we forget it is impossible to be objective.

China imprisons people who criticized the covid19 effort, they arrested doctors. Did you know that docs or researchers put the covid19 sequence on the web (it was used by the seattle flu study to identify cv here), then arrested them.

The us doesn't do that kind of thing (trump would no doubt like to do that, with his talk of making cv numbers an official secret). China was very effective stopping the virus apparently, after screwing it up at the start. They just kidnapped a critical billionaire.

That 'whistleblower doctor' was reprimanded, not arrested. The Chinese supreme court later judged in his favor, saying that the police shouldn't have reprimanded him. Even CGTN, a state media, admitted that the treatment of the doctor was wrong.

The US might recover in the sense of electing someone less clownish but I don't see this economic mercantilist trend in the US subsiding because it is gaining steam on both sides of the political spectrum. Warren for example, championing 'economic patriotism' has similar impulses and withdrawing from the world is now an equally liberal and conservative position.

Yeah, "widely known". What is less widely known is that that isn't as true as you think.

Case study: https://mothership.sg/2019/12/news-china-protests-wenlou-hua... People in Guangdong province -- closely Hong Kong -- protested against the building of a crematorium. They also complained that the government didn't consult them before proceeding with the plans. Some even rioted, similarly to Hong Kongers. Did the government put them in jail forever? Nope: peaceful protesters were unharmed, rioters got jailed but were released later and forgiven. The government scrapped the plans and gave citizens what they wanted.

How is this possible in an authoritarian country? There is only one answer: your image of what China is, is wrong.

There is a core of truth of all the claims about authoritarianism and human rights abuse, but it's just that: a core. That core has been exaggerated beyond all reason.

Like someone else posted: china has good aspects and bad aspects. Just like the US. Just like other countries. Time to stop viewing it as a caricature and start treating it for what it really is.

All along by not stopping in earlier stage. Good lesson to learn how to eliminate your competitor in the long run are we?

China’s handling of this is the reason we are all in this situation. They had a chance to contain it and they chose to shut down information that would have stopped the spread. Now the Chinese government are some kind of heroes?

I really don't get this sentiment. China fucked up their initial handling of the situation, but it took over a month for them to figure out that they're dealing with a dangerous new pathogen. These things aren't apparent from the first few cases that get discovered. Meanwhile, the rest of the world had two months of warning about the danger, and we fucked up worse. Blaming China for not containing it is ridiculous and completely unfair - I doubt anyone would've fared better. US handling of the situation in particular proves it would fare even worse (complete with suppression of data).

The screw up was caused by the lower level CCP trying to sweep the problem under the carpet. Once the big boys got involved it was taken seriously.

As for instantly closing the borders: if you did that everytime a new virus popped up then you'd be closing the borders twice a year.

How do you know that Germany isn't already trying to screw over the USA and the rest of the world? One of the first things they did is block mask exports to the rest of Europe.

Why do you think that’s screwing over somebody, rather than rationally protecting the very limited supply already insufficient for Germany’s own imminent need?

Last time it happened was end of the second world war.

This is the kind of "zero sum game" thinking that Putin uses, i.e. "someone else losing is the same as me winning".

Please explain how that'd advantage the US? The US spent hundreds of billions of dollars to restart the German economy and rebuild Europe post-WW2 as part of the Marshall Plan. Modern Europe nearly owes its existence to the herculean efforts of Americans. There is absolutely no reason we'd try to stifle or damage Europe now. We are allies.

Good point on Marshall Plan. But "Modern Europe nearly owes its existence to the herculean efforts of Americans" - really? If you're talking about ww2, Soviet union had a far more important role to play. https://www.vox.com/2014/6/16/5814270/the-successful-70-year...

When does this myth die? 70 years, is this version still taught where you went to school (US?)?

"hundreds of billions of dollars"

Germany received $14B (in 2020 $). Most of the money was loans and Germany made the last debt payment in 1971.

The Marshall plan had three goals: 1.) Start the US peace time economy and help transition companies from wartime production to consumer goods 2.) Prevent communist influence in Europe by preventing starving Europeans 3.) Open European markets to US companies by reducing barriers and regulations.

"The Marshall Plan aid was mostly used for the purchase of goods from the United States." --Wikipedia

"Its role in the rapid recovery has been debated. The Marshall Plan's accounting reflects that aid accounted for about 3% of the combined national income of the recipient countries between 1948 and 1951, which means an increase in GDP growth of less than half a percent." --Wikipedia

That aside grateful to every US soldier who risked his life or lost his life to free Europe, especially those that gave chocolates to my starving parents. They can always have a free lunch here.

I think Europeans don't trust this bond anymore since Make America Great Again and America First became the slogans of the US administration.

But it will pass. It might take 4 more years the worst, but the us isn't becoming a nationalist authoritarian country. I hope. Sadly, I don't joke.

You realize the person in charge doesn't know what the Marshall Plan is and only know "the art of the deal."

A common forgotten point is that they spend that money partially because they had to it else they could not have guaranteed that Europe would not align with communism. At the same time doing so saved the USA from a economical crash caused by overproduction. Lastly it allowed them to gain deep tried economical influence.

While the USA might sometimes to present it as a selfless act it wasn't selfless at all. It was what allowed them to become the most powerful country in the word, at least for a view years.

Lastly Trump didn't just want to buy right on the potential vaccines he wanted to get exclusive rights. It was never even a question before that if the EU finds a vaccine then the USA will get it, too. But now he did an action which completely destroy the trust between the EU and the USA when it comes to fighting this pandemic together.