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Re:Tips for the depressed by PragmaticPulp on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @12:41PM (#22536999)
One of the biggest force multipliers in overcoming depression is accepting that you can modulate your condition by taking small, deliberate actions.

It's also one of the most difficult and delicate ideas to communicate to a depressed person. Depression notoriously clouds peoples' judgment and makes simple tasks seem impossible. Depression also encourages a lot of binary thinking, where people tend to give up because they can't achieve the optimal solution and can't imagine anything in between optimal and complete failure. And most importantly, depressed people almost never want to hear someone else telling them that they should do something to change their own condition. If you've ever been through a depressive episode, you'll understand how unpalatable this idea is if it's not delivered carefully. Be careful to not make depressed people feel even worse about their condition.

For example, I've known several depressed people who spiraled deeper into depression when they could no longer perform their regular 60 minute gym sessions multiple times per week. It took a while for them to accept that a 5-minute walk around the block is better than no exercise at all. From there, they could push to 10 minute walks on good days, then 20 minutes, then 30 minutes, and eventually work their way back up to gym visits. Taking those tiny steps is a great way to re-learn that you can accomplish things, and it's a great to way to see gradual progress in yourself.

Re:Tips for the depressed by frausto on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @02:03PM (#22537846)
I've struggled with this quite a bit in my own life. I find the "No Zero" mentality to work well for me. Treat every weekday as a "No Zero" day. What does that mean? It means if my goal is to go to the gym, even if I literally walk into the gym, do a pushup, and leave, that counts. It's more than Zero. Consistent non-zero days eventually help break me out of my depression. And when I miss a day... well forgive myself and keep going.

All easier said than done of course, and sometimes a no-zero goal is just to get out of bed... but it has helped me.

For anyone interested I got the idea from here: https://www.reddit.com/r/getdisciplined/comments/1q96b5/i_ju... The style and language of the post are not really my cup of tea, but the ideas behind it have really helped me.

Re:Tips for the depressed by tombert on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @02:12PM (#22537940)
The article on FiveThirtyEight "If You Stop Thinking Of Exercise As A Way To Lose Weight, You May Actually Enjoy It" [0] really helped me realize something similar.

I think virtually any doctor would agree that my half-ass, crappy exercise at the gym is still almost certainly better than me sitting at home and watching TV, even if it's not the most optimal way of doing it.

[0] https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/if-you-stop-thinking-of...

Re:Tips for the depressed by agumonkey on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @02:34PM (#22538137)
crazy how the first step is often the most important one
Re:Tips for the depressed by Jare on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @02:52PM (#22538328)
And every step is the first since the last one.
Re:Tips for the depressed by uoaei on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @03:30PM (#22538723)
That sounds inspirational but it just comes across as daunting/insurmountable to those who haven't gotten used to the idea of taking that first step.
Re:Tips for the depressed by Jare on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @05:33PM (#22539966)
I meant it as factual rather than inspirational. It is daunting for sure, but every person in this journey will find out about it as soon as they take that first step. And most people around will not understand, and will not be able to help and support appropriately without that understanding.
Re:Tips for the depressed by agumonkey on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @03:24PM (#22538667)
but there's a huge entry cost.
Re:Tips for the depressed by haebou on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @04:34PM (#22539396)
I would have responded with exactly this -- the post that you linked. The four points that the author makes really make a difference if you can internalize them.
Re:Tips for the depressed by cgriswald on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @01:03PM (#22537212)
For me, doing those small things did seem impossible and even when I managed to achieve it, I didn't feel the reward. There didn't seem any point in making the bed if I felt the same whether the bed was made or not. Eventually I reached a mental place where I could turn that around: If it doesn't make a difference in how I feel, why not make the bed? I had to more or less take it on faith that eventually the rewards would come, and they did. Anyone out there dealing with this: Keep fighting, but don't kick yourself if you have a set back. You wouldn't kick someone else when they're down, so don't do that to yourself.

Edit: Just want to plug Allie Brosh here. This comic is maybe the best description I've ever read on how depression is experienced: http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2013/05/depression-par...

Re:Tips for the depressed by OnACoffeeBreak on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @02:50PM (#22538314)
Speaking of treating yourself as well as you might treat a friend... I found this paper on self-compassion to be very helpful when dealing with self-criticism, guilt and shame:

Self-Compassion: An Alternative Conceptualization of a Healthy Attitude Toward Oneself

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b357/87b9b21486d00458e85f8b....

Re:Tips for the depressed by giu on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @06:22PM (#22540462)
As soon as I read "Self-Compassion" I knew it has to be Dr. Kristin Neff; I read her book (https://self-compassion.org/self-compassion-kristin-neff/) a couple years ago and it was quite an eye-opener for me.

Just a note: your link is not working; here's a link to the paper, directly form Dr. Neff's homepage: https://self-compassion.org/wp-content/uploads/publications/...

Re:Tips for the depressed by burntoutfire on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @01:31PM (#22537470)
Coincidentally, I really see no point in making the bed. I wonder if I'm depressed.
Re:Tips for the depressed by carlmr on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @01:38PM (#22537539)
Is there anything else where you do see a purpose that needs doing? Maybe folding laundry, cleaning the kitchen, etc. That usually makes you feel more comfortable at home.

Whatever it is, you can start small. Fold one pair of socks. Clean one dish. Vacuum one room.

I think a lot of people don't see any purpose in making a bed.

Re:Tips for the depressed by burntoutfire on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @01:52PM (#22537734)
I fold laundry after ironing so that I can store it unwrinkled in the closet. I clean the kitchen after I cook, as otherwise it would quickly become messy (a biohazard).

I don't see a point in making the bed though - I can lie typing this just as well in a bed that's unmade. I feel similarly about cleaning up the dust in the apartment - it just doesn't bother me. I don't know if it's depression or nirvana...

Re:Tips for the depressed by derekp7 on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @01:51PM (#22537716)
For that matter, is there a link between depression and feeling overwhelmed with tasks all the time? Does one cause the other, is it a two way feedback loop, or is there sometimes a separate common cause?
Re:Tips for the depressed by ThrowawayP on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @02:04PM (#22537853)
> "For that matter, is there a link between depression and feeling overwhelmed with tasks all the time?"

If you're talking about work tasks, that seems more likely to be from occupational burnout. Here's a comparison chart that might be helpful: https://mdedge-files-live.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/files/s...

Re:Tips for the depressed by derekp7 on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @04:55PM (#22539589)
I'm talking about both work tasks, and personal. Surprisingly I can get through assigned work tasks typically without issue. It is the tasks that I set out for myself that I have a problem with. Which fits in with why I'm primarily in a systems administration / engineering role -- I can pull on my decades of experience to solve tasks readily, however whenever I have to do a programming / design related task (which I can be fairly good at), I can't pull that off consistently. I can only do that if it is an area I'm not familiar enough with, where I can trick myself into thinking that it isn't that big of a project. But if I end up going down the wrong path and have to start over, then I fall apart and can't even think about working on it anymore. Or if I get a basic system developed (MVP), I find it difficult to work on improvements because the list of things I can do is never ending.

For my non-work related projects (open source software, home system builds, woodworking, 3D modeling) I wish I could hire a project manager to oversee my work on them. (would that be a variation of hiring a life coach?)

Re:Tips for the depressed by kaybe on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:08AM (#22545481)
I remember this thread, so maybe you can.

Boss as a Service – Hire a boss, get stuff done

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18512197

Re:Tips for the depressed by triceratops on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @04:25PM (#22539316)
Making the bed is a waste of time. Better to let the mattress and sheets breathe and air out. (at least that's how I justify my laziness). Don't sweat it friend.
Re:Tips for the depressed by kaybe on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @09:00PM (#22541870)
I'd say that's also a valid way of making the bed. Flip the bedding open, shake up the pillows a little, let it breathe.

Then again, sleeping in fresh sheets after a shower is supremely satisfying and might also count.

Re:Tips for the depressed by prawn on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @01:08AM (#22543163)
Do both - fold down the quilt/sheet so it looks neat but still breathes. Then make it later on. Takes me five seconds to make the bed and then I appreciate that neatness every time I walk past during the day - easily worth it to me.
Re:Tips for the depressed by dorkwood on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @03:48PM (#22538894)
The main benefit I've found to making the bed is that it shrinks your subconscious to-do list and helps you concentrate. If you make your bed, clean up the plates on your desk, and pick up your clothes from the floor, then your brain has nowhere to hide -- the only thing left to focus on is the task at hand.
Re:Tips for the depressed by __s on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @04:01PM (#22539047)
But making my bed & cleaning were never on my todo list to begin with, so it isn't shrinking my subconscious todo list
Re:Tips for the depressed by dorkwood on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @06:15PM (#22540403)
Well I guess if you never clean or tidy and it doesn't bother you and you're able to remain productive, then what I'm saying doesn't apply.
Re:Tips for the depressed by Apocryphon on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @04:10PM (#22539147)
Are there any menial tasks that are on your list?
Re:Tips for the depressed by __s on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @07:38PM (#22541237)
Food
Re:Tips for the depressed by warkid on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @02:05AM (#22543456)
Not making your bad could be healthy as it helps killing dust mite: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10493-006-9003-8
Re:Tips for the depressed by agumonkey on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @02:27PM (#22538068)
It can be laziness but I tend to see all these details as a sign of a tad too low mood.

It's a relativistic conclusion that, whenever I'm a bit happy, I tend to naturally care more about making beds, picking nicer clothes, etc

So I can accept that thinking not doing these can be a sign.

Re:Tips for the depressed by holbue on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @02:33PM (#22538130)
Please be careful not to generalize when proposing solutions, because their is not the depression(1): Depressions can be caused by very different things, can cause somewhat different symptoms and certainly can be solved using very different approaches. I met a lot of of depressed people, most them got out of them with different approaches (meds, therapy, changes in their environment).

I myself tried the approach mentioned, during therapy, without any success: Achieving something just didn't produce any positive effect for me. Then I got treated (as last resort) with ECT, my condition improved temporarily, and suddenly, within the same therapy, I started to feel an effect and was able to stabilize.

In short: Propsing "Do <x>, it most likely will help you" is not a good idea, as it is quite depressing for the depressed (at least for me it was). Maybe it's better to say sth like "Try <x>, maybe it helps, if not, there is also <y> or <z>. There is a lot that can be tried, maybe something might help you. "

(1) A doctor explained it to me like that: "depression" is more like a term to group together conditions that partially share symptoms, and that is it basically used for handling the insurance stuff etc. For treatment (at least for severe depressions), the term is too rough to be useful. E.g. a lot of severely depressed people also show symptoms of psychosis as side effect.

EDIT: Formatting and reformulated a bit (I think I was too harsh)

Re:Tips for the depressed by Tade0 on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @01:12PM (#22537298)
I've known several depressed people who spiraled deeper into depression when they could no longer perform their regular 60 minute gym sessions multiple times per week.

This part is hard. I've met people who have difficulties coming to terms with the fact that they're (even temporarily) unable to do something which used to be part of their routine.

Re:Tips for the depressed by Swizec on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @01:05PM (#22537223)
As s as formerly depressed person I can attest that this is the only thing that worked. DO stuff. Even if you feel you can’t, even if it feels hopeless. Do it anyway.

Somehow through the act of forcing yourself you find you’re actually enjoying yourself, are making progress and feeling better.

Saying this is also the quickest way to get shunned out of the room by anyone with depression.

Fun fact: research has shown that cognitive behavioral therapy is more effective at changing brain chemistry than drugs. Tricking yourself into doing things is a lighter form of CBT so I heartily recommend it to everyone.

Or as my psychiatrist once said: Drugs don’t mean you’re broken or that this is outside your control. They just give you the space to fix it. CBT is the actual long-term solution.

https://www.nature.com/articles/4001816

Re:Tips for the depressed by 0xcde4c3db on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @02:14PM (#22537955)
> As s as formerly depressed person I can attest that this is the only thing that worked. DO stuff. Even if you feel you can’t, even if it feels hopeless. Do it anyway.

> Somehow through the act of forcing yourself you find you’re actually enjoying yourself, are making progress and feeling better.

I tried this approach. The "you find you're actually enjoying yourself" part never came. It left me profoundly exhausted, disappointed, and hopeless to the point of being suicidal.

I'm glad that you found an approach that worked for you, but depressive disorders are highly complex and poorly understood phenomena that aren't suited to neat little explanations of "the actual" solution.

Re:Tips for the depressed by revscat on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @03:34PM (#22538750)
I had a similar experience to yours. Divorce. Heartache. Depression amplified by..a lot. Tried to get out. Joined a couple of groups on Meetup.

Didn't work. Moderately enjoyed it. Would get home, then... crash. Back into the spiral.

Fast forward a couple of years. In a better place, somewhat. Try again, what the hell I'm bored and can only play so much HZD and BotW. It was surprisingly better this time. Started making friends. Texting.

Feels good. Better, at least.

So maybe you aren't in a place where that works for you right now. Maybe it will one day. Don't close yourself off to it completely, though. It's helped others, so who knows.

Re:Tips for the depressed by tekkk on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @05:36PM (#22540001)
Well if it's any help, here's my two cents: to rewire your gratification circuits you need a lot of time and effort to alter your brains to accept some new ideas or behaviors. Took me a long time to get used to going to gym. Now it's like second nature. I know if you are really depressed it might be impossible to do it and other means, eg psychologist and medication, might be more helpful.

But the rewiring of your brain is the most important thing I feel in combating depression and getting somehow your lizard brain engaged in the "normal" things. For some reason I have felt that losing the connection to your primal desires (or the real you) is often the trigger, that will cause your body to tell you "hey, you are doing something wrong - please fix it". I know self-blame is the last thing any depressed person needs, but I think positive action and experiences are definitely key-part in overriding the negative thinking patterns. Things such as social connections, the feeling of belonging to a group and physical exercise.

Yet for certain, if you feel you are pushing yourself too much to me it says that there are deeper problems unsolved under the surface, that should be reworked with maybe a psychotherapist before going on a trip around the world. Or maybe it's a chronic chemical imbalance that just can't be fixed (eg Abraham Lincoln). Who knows.

To me physical exercise was like a magic cure that did feel like a natural depression medicine when you get the feeling of progress. Then other positive things started to build on top of it.

Re:Tips for the depressed by 0xcde4c3db on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @07:28PM (#22541135)
In the abstract, it's entirely plausible to me that I somehow need to work to "rewire my gratification circuits". However, nothing has demonstrated even a hint of actually doing that. I've tried multiple approaches to talk therapy, medication, diet/exercise, and self-directed behavioral activation (aka "do stuff"). None of them have noticeably helped; a few have backfired badly.

> I think positive action and experiences are definitely key-part in overriding the negative thinking patterns. Things such as social connections, the feeling of belonging to a group and physical exercise.

Here's the thing: I'm not sure I've genuinely had a positive experience in a long time (maybe decades). I'm not sure I've ever experienced "the feeling of belonging to a group" in an emotional sense. I routinely do things and have interactions that I can intellectually analyze as having been positive accomplishments, but for me there's a disconnect such that this simply fails to add up to a positive experience. As far as I can tell, most approaches to therapy don't even acknowledge this as a possibility, let alone have a method to address it. Those that do acknowledge it tend to have a questionable-to-nonexistent body of scientific evidence and are often phrased with a weird mythical/quasi-religious/metaphorical quality such that I'm often confused as to what advocates or practitioners are even trying to say once they move on from discussion of symptoms.

Re:Tips for the depressed by Mouse47 on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @09:42PM (#22542115)
I was just describing this to my therapist the other day. There are things that you recognize at the intellectual level that never make it down to the "lower levels", which ironically are the ones that matter.

She's an anxiety therapist, so I tell her my anxiety is holding me back from connecting with others, but part of me suspects that my inability to "feel" the connections is the real problem.

Re:Tips for the depressed by cairo_x on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @11:33PM (#22542725)
Depends. In the short term (12 months) CBT has been shown to be very effective. However, over two years it has been shown to be just as effective as doing nothing.

The problem of time turns up in multiple kinds of treatments, and I believe it has simply to do with how long the depressive episodes last. Usually by the time people seek treatment that will be at the peak of the episode. Regardless of the treatment, a couple bunch of month will pass and people find themselves getting better. I suspect most depression studies a deeply flawed because of this effect. At some point the treatment will stop working. But it's not that the treatment stopped working, it's that a new depressive episode has begun and the treatment never really did all that much in the first place.

Re:Tips for the depressed by Swizec on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @01:50PM (#22548202)
I’ve found it effective to develop circuit breaker mechanisms. It took a while and it seems to help long term.

When I see myself slipping into a depressive episode, I circuit break it before it gets bad. Remind myself that overall life is pretty good, distract myself with work, take a break, or whatever else seems like it might help.

And most of all: dont follow the spiral. Jump out while I still can.

Re:Tips for the depressed by watwut on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @01:19PM (#22537356)
> It took a while for them to accept that a 5-minute walk around the block is better than no exercise at all.

Because while it is good for your physical health, mentally it feels much worst then doing nothing. It reminds you of everything you cant do anymore. It makes you feel like shell of yourself. It also feels empty and you get none of the good felling you get from full workout.

Re:Tips for the depressed by maram on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @09:32PM (#22542051)
>>One of the biggest force multipliers in overcoming depression

One of the biggest force multipliers for me was accepting myself the way I am, and living with my depression. I was diagnosed with Major Depressive Disorder, PTSD, and Bipolar. I've been on several SSRIs for a year, but I've quit it all. I found out that drugs are good to calm me down, but they make me so normal to the point of boredom. I could no longer hyper-focus to build/design products.

When I researched it I found out that creativity is strongly linked to depression. It made sense...I couldn't imagine Picasso, Kakfka, Shakespeare, and all the creative great thinkers/artists living a life like not-depressed-people.

When my doctor, and the head of the Psychiatrist dept tried to influence my decision I said that I love myself when I hyper-focus.

I love it when I'm randomly strolling the streets thinking about all the silly things other people think I'm wasting my time thinking about.

I love it when I read the depressing thoughts/ideas of great philosophers like Russell, Wittgenstein, and Kant.

I love it when I look at depressing paintings by Munch, Picasso, and Van Gogh.

It remains one of life mysteries to me why we are trained to reject depression and loneliness..why we, hackers and artists, are trained to live by unwritten rules of how we should live our lives..

“Be alone, that is the secret of invention; be alone, that is when ideas are born.” ― Nikola Tesla.

Re:Tips for the depressed by cairo_x on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @11:15PM (#22542626)
You were prescribed SSRIs with a Bipolar diagnosis!?
Re:Tips for the depressed by maram on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @11:27PM (#22542700)
No, that was for depression and ptsd. I stopped seeing my doctor when he told me he thinks I have bipolar.
Re:Tips for the depressed by cairo_x on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @11:39PM (#22542760)
Ah. As someone who went through the same thing (minus the ptsd), next time you get in a bad mental spot go see a psychiatrist and tell them about the bipolar diagnosis. There are some very mild mood stabilizers out there nowadays that don't zombify you. (SSRI's can trigger manic episodes and cycling in people with bipolar, fyi).

Also just making sure you don't trying and deliberately alter your moods with caffeine, weed, or amphetamines will keep you relatively stable (even without drugs). Although if you start having a full blown episode it's worth keeping what I said above in mind.

Sorry if the advice is unwelcome. This is just what I found helpful.

People with bipolar often use caffeine, weed, or even amphetamines to deliberately trigger hypomania. Feels good, but unfortunately it also increases the frequency of depressed episodes. It's like Karma.

Re:Tips for the depressed by econcon on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @01:01PM (#22537189)
I used to workout 2 hours everyday in gym.

When I stopped supplements, I couldn't get myself to lift for even 15 minutes. I lost all my stenght and got depressed.

Re:Tips for the depressed by bsanr2 on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @01:51PM (#22537717)
Supplements, or "supplements"? I've heard that this is one of the dangers of the use of any kind of substantially-effective PED: not necessarily that their use will disrupt physiological systems so greatly (though many do when abused), but that the difference in performance or physique while on vs off is so great that it discourages either working out while not using them, or else never getting off them.
Re:Tips for the depressed by logjammin on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @02:28PM (#22538081)
Really? Which supplements?
Re:Tips for the depressed by econcon on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @01:29AM (#22543249)
I used testosterone + Primobolone
Re:Tips for the depressed by agumonkey on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @02:24PM (#22538035)
> Depression also encourages a lot of binary thinking, where people tend to give up because they can't achieve the optimal solution and can't imagine anything in between optimal and complete failure.

Definitely, it warps your perspective badly.. my conclusion is to never think over sadness. I'm sure we're mostly supposed to be hugging loved ones, walk or sleep.

> And most importantly, depressed people almost never want to hear someone else telling them that they should do something to change their own condition.

I'll add an exception. They/we do.. we just need someone we can relate to closely. To an absurd level even.. because whenever you can finally talk openly and feel someone gets you, the mental pain lessens rapidly.

Re:Tips for the depressed by shrimpx on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @03:18PM (#22538612)
What you’re saying also applies to a meaningful extent to procrastinators, myself included.