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Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by a3n on Sunday March 08, 2020 @11:31AM (#22518477)
> Take a 40t truck with 5 axles vs. a small car with a weight of 1t and two axles ...

Truck driver. Not quibbling, just adding nuance.

For your typical 40t scenario, allowed max weights are:

12,00 pounds on the front steering axle. It has one tire at each end.

34,000 pounds total on the two tandem "drive" axles on the truck. There are two tires at the end of each axle, so four per axle, eight total at the drive axles, and ten total on the truck.

34,000 pounds on the two tandem axles on the trailer, two tires at the end of each axle, eight total on the trailer axles, 18 total on the truck plus trailer rig.

34K + 34K + 12K = 80,000 pounds = 40t, if the trailer is fully loaded to max. It's about 35,000 pounds total if the trailer is empty.

So you should include in your calculations that the load is spread out over eighteen tires, as above.

There is also bridge loading to consider. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Bridge_Gross_Weight_Fo...

Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by dhimes on Sunday March 08, 2020 @01:17PM (#22519191)
So it would be better to have a bunch of smaller trucks moving cargo. And that means a lot more work for truck drivers.
Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by TheDong on Sunday March 08, 2020 @02:00PM (#22519462)
It may be better for the roads, but it may be overall worse for the environment and/or shipping costs.

Building an entire truck isn't free from cost and environmental impact, nor is maintaining it.

Fuel usage also increases with more trucks.

There's also an overhead each truck has that scales differently from how much it lugs, based on fuel it needs to carry and space for its driver.

Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by richk449 on Sunday March 08, 2020 @01:27PM (#22519234)
True, reducing the cargo would require more trucks to carry the same load, increasing demand for truck drivers.

On the other hand, wouldn’t reducing the amount of cargo a single truck can carry makey individual truck driver less valuable?

The end result would probably depend on a lot of other factors, including the supply and demand curves for alternative forms of transportation (trains, boats, investment in autonomous solutions), as well as the supply and demand curves of the goods being transported (because if the cost goes up to pay for more truck drivers, maybe people will just stop buying that product).

Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by a3n on Sunday March 08, 2020 @01:41PM (#22519330)
Lots of ways to cut that. Consider pounds-mile/gal for freight on my 80k truck carrying 45k freight, vs your vanagon or beemer.

My truck gets at least 6mpg, usually 7.5, sometimes 9, and I've seen 10 once.

Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by cronix on Sunday March 08, 2020 @02:00PM (#22519470)
Or for the companies who will own/lease the automated fleets, foregoing having to pay wages, health insurance, vacation time, or work breaks allowing them to ship quicker since they aren't forced to stop driving and take a break every x hours. You'll just get a smug smile and a "learn to code" line.
Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by xenonite on Sunday March 08, 2020 @06:10PM (#22520968)
No, for the roads it would be better to have the weight distributed on more "area", hence: more wheels and bigger wheels for the same weight. And this does _not_ require more trucks, just more wheels below each truck.

However, an even more material-efficient solution would be to use railways instead.

Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by masklinn on Sunday March 08, 2020 @02:33PM (#22519661)
> Truck driver. Not quibbling, just adding nuance.

You're absolutely quibbling though.

> So you should include in your calculations that the load is spread out over eighteen tires, as above.

The fourth power rule is specifically about axle load, not about wheel load. It's also an estimate / rule of thumb (which is why it's so useful), not a precision instrument.

But hey if you want more precision than the FPR we can do more precision: https://pavementinteractive.org/reference-desk/design/design...

As the link notes, road engineers usually work in LEF/ESAL (ratio to a standardised 18000lbs axle load), and provides some conversion tables.

Assuming a relatively large 4000lbs sedan this is 2000 lbs per axle, or 2x0.0003 LEF = 0.0006 LEF.

A fully loaded truck would be ~0.3 for the 12000lbs front axle, and 1.11 for each of the rear tandem axles, for a total of 2.52 LEF.

2.52 / 0.0006 = 4200. Which shows that the fourth power rule's 4096 was pretty close but if anything underselling it.

Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by a3n on Sunday March 08, 2020 @06:58PM (#22521258)
> The fourth power rule is specifically about axle load, not about wheel load.

Misunderstood that, sorry.

Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by reitzensteinm on Sunday March 08, 2020 @10:07PM (#22522294)
No, parent is mistaken. The forth power rule bakes in an assumption of dual tires at each end of an axle.
Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by jessaustin on Sunday March 08, 2020 @03:14PM (#22519907)
Yeah, they use dual tires so that they don't pop catastrophically, not to spare the road from wear.
Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by a3n on Sunday March 08, 2020 @06:54PM (#22521231)
That's been the benefit to me, still having a drivable rig when a tire shreds.

But, there is also something called a "super single" that's a double wide single wheel/tire, with one on the end of an axle rather than two. I'm told they're cheaper and lighter total, as opposed to the more common two per end. I've pulled a few trailers that had them. I don't really know why one or the other, I just drive them.

Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by reitzensteinm on Sunday March 08, 2020 @04:16PM (#22520293)
I'm sure that's true, but are you saying it doesn't reduce wear?
Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by jessaustin on Sunday March 08, 2020 @11:05PM (#22522619)
It probably reduces wear slightly. Increasing contact area necessarily decreases applied pressure. Then again, a wider effective contact profile damages more of the road than a narrower one would.

Let's not forget the context of this discussion, however. Fourth power expressions are still fourth power expressions after multiplication by a constant factor. 4/18 is a constant factor.

Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by reitzensteinm on Sunday March 08, 2020 @11:37PM (#22522789)
You're multiplying the input by a constant factor. If wear is proportional to (weight per tire)^4, and you've halved weight per tire by having twice as many, you've just reduced wear to 6% of its original value.

I don't know if doubling tire counts really does this, but it's hard to see why twice as many axles would help but tires per axle would not. It's possible (the pressure underneath the tires is reduced, but the tires exerting pressure on the road are closer together) but counter intuitive to say the least.

And there's no proof in this thread that it doesn't help except for masklinn's misinterpretation of the original study.

Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by jessaustin on Monday March 09, 2020 @12:45PM (#22526840)
Also, road wear is a function of friction as well as pressure. Friction is increased with additional tires.
Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by reitzensteinm on Monday March 09, 2020 @04:06PM (#22529197)
This is already taken in to account with the forth power rule, isn't it?
Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by reitzensteinm on Monday March 09, 2020 @08:37PM (#22531536)
Fourth :)
Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by masklinn on Sunday March 08, 2020 @04:30PM (#22520393)
I'm sure it reduces wear on the tires.
Re:Pollution from tire wear is worse than exhaust emissions? by reitzensteinm on Sunday March 08, 2020 @09:56PM (#22522241)
"The AASHTO load-equivalency factors strictly apply only to axles supported at each end by dual tires. Recent increase in steering-axle loadings and more extensive use of single tires on load-bearing axles have precipitated efforts to examine the effect on pavement wear of substituting single for dual tires."

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/reports/tswstudy/TSWwp3.pdf