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Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by _bxg1 on Saturday March 07, 2020 @04:17PM (#22514139)
Anecdotally, the Starbucks at the very center of downtown Austin usually has a couple of homeless people in it. They'll come in, use the bathroom, get some AC, maybe even take a nap in a chair. The baristas happily refill their cups with clean water.

As a customer, there's sometimes a smell, and you tend to sit where you can keep an eye out (since you never know the mental state of people in that situation), but I've never witnessed any real problems.

Honestly, it's heartwarming. It's dystopian, of course, that the provision of basic needs like these falls to a private coffee chain, but regardless of that I admire what they're doing (even though it's probably PR-driven, if we're being honest). It's not unpleasant enough for me as a customer that I'd refuse to go to that location (or even walk half a dozen blocks to the next one).

Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by c0nsilienc3 on Saturday March 07, 2020 @04:29PM (#22514232)
As you said, it's an anecdote. And it's nice that it works out in that one location.

Alternatively, I've seen how this has affected Starbucks in the nicer parts of San Francisco and the East Bay. Some Starbucks locations smell horrible, some of the restrooms are trashed and there is toilet paper everywhere. In one Starbucks on Market Street, a homeless person decided to hole up in the restroom and take a nap on the nice, cool floor with the a/c going.

I can never support forcing a private business into offering a public utility.

Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by _bxg1 on Saturday March 07, 2020 @04:32PM (#22514267)
> forcing a private business into offering a public utility

But this was decided by Starbucks itself?

I totally agree that the public sector needs to step up and offer its own solution. But in the absence of that, this is better than nothing.

Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by c0nsilienc3 on Sunday March 08, 2020 @06:43PM (#22521155)
Ah you are correct. It was Starbucks' decision after the following incident:

>"In April, two African American males were arrested in a Philadelphia Starbucks after one asked to use the restroom but was told only paying customers could use them. After he sat down with his friend while waiting to be joined by a business associate for a meeting, the police came and arrested both, sparking national outrage.

Starbucks CEO Kevin Johnson subsequently apologized to the victims and reached an undisclosed financial settlement."

Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by PierceJoy on Saturday March 07, 2020 @04:42PM (#22514317)
> I can never support forcing a private business into offering a public utility.

So I suppose you support increase taxation to fund these public utilities?

Also, Starbucks wasn't forced to do this. They chose to.

Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by jjeaff on Saturday March 07, 2020 @04:56PM (#22514430)
Or maybe they support decreased military spending or other waste to pay for it.
Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by PierceJoy on Saturday March 07, 2020 @10:30PM (#22516161)
Sounds good to me. I bet they don't, though. Regardless, their premise is still false. No one was forced to do anything.
Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by smallgovt on Saturday March 07, 2020 @04:25PM (#22514207)
> even though it's probably PR-driven, if we're being honest

Thank you for judging people/organizations based on their actions and not their intentions. Intentions are complex and hard to accurately determine.

Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by MiscIdeaMaker99 on Saturday March 07, 2020 @05:22PM (#22514628)
Intentions are not motivations. They may have great intentions, but Starbucks is absolutely acting in their own self-interest when they decided to come out with this policy. It has everything to do with changing the narrative following the incident in Philadelphia, referenced in the article.
Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by _bxg1 on Saturday March 07, 2020 @04:36PM (#22514291)
Not for a publicly-held, international corporation. I'm sure the baristas' enactment of the policy is genuine, but public corporations do not have "intentions" other than to make money.
Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by avip on Saturday March 07, 2020 @04:39PM (#22514306)
Public corporations are made of people, and people have (complex, and often contradictory) intentions.
Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by TeMPOraL on Sunday March 08, 2020 @07:21AM (#22517501)
Intentions other than making fast buck cheap tend to quickly cancel out on the market.
Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by Scoundreller on Saturday March 07, 2020 @04:29PM (#22514224)
And while it's hard to measure, a lot of people do "support" Starbucks with their wallet because of that.

Some don't, but on average, it can be a net positive.

It's the kind of thing you need a scientific study with randomization to tease out. You can control for all the confounders you want, but you can never control for unknown/difficult to estimate confounders, like human emotion.

Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by HenryBemis on Saturday March 07, 2020 @04:35PM (#22514286)
I bet SBUX can easily issue a report with the traffic pre & post policy change. They measure everything from sales, identify unique customers (debit/credit cards), WiFi connections, etc. It would be easy to show a report how this policy change lead to which results for each store/city/state. And they also have the analytics capabilities to also layer this by richness/poverty levels for each point of sale.
Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by Scoundreller on Saturday March 07, 2020 @05:08PM (#22514528)
The interesting aspect of the study is that they compared Starbucks to nearby cafes/restaurants. So nearby locations could have had a 10% increase while Starbucks had a 3% increase.

While SBUX has all that data, they would only see their own data.

Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by _bxg1 on Saturday March 07, 2020 @04:35PM (#22514280)
> you need a scientific study

Or just... the fact that the company is still doing it. That's the other thing that's weird to me about this study: surely Starbucks itself has already studied and worked out the calculus that the PR effect is a net positive?

Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by 29083011397778 on Saturday March 07, 2020 @04:41PM (#22514311)
The linked paper (even just the abstract) states there's ~7% less attendance, and ~4% less time spent at most Starbucks locations. Even if people vote with their wallets, it doesn't seem to be making up the difference as others avoid Starbucks in response to this policy.
Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by yellowapple on Saturday March 07, 2020 @08:36PM (#22515674)
I had trouble opening the paper (keeps asking for some signup in which I have no interest), but it doesn't sound like they've adequately isolated other factors, e.g. people thinking Starbucks is overpriced and subpar compared to other coffee shops (myself included) or people preferring to support local businesses over some sprawling multinational (myself included).

That is: it's hard to rule out the possibility of this being just coincidence.

Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by publicgood123 on Sunday March 08, 2020 @09:33AM (#22517923)
an ungated version can be found on one of the authors' website: http://www.umitgurun.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/privatep...
Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by yellowapple on Sunday March 08, 2020 @10:09AM (#22518088)
Awesome, thanks!
Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by Scoundreller on Saturday March 07, 2020 @04:55PM (#22514422)
It's less attendance/time spent compared to nearby cafes/restaurants. Starbucks might be up overall pre vs post.

The problem is the lack of randomization.

We can't know if something else Starbucks did at or around the same period caused the drop. E.g. the initial protests themselves upsetting customers in the first place or a change in pricing/promos by itself or a competitor. Maybe Starbucks jacked up its prices (or others starting discounting), which is why the public disclosures don't indicate the relative drop in traffic.

But "The decline in visits is around 84% larger for stores located near homeless shelters." is quite damning.

Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by chance_state on Saturday March 07, 2020 @04:26PM (#22514209)
>It's dystopian, of course, that the provision of basic needs like these falls to a private coffee chain [...]

I live in a major metro city like Austin. The homeless can easily get three hot meals a day, a warm bed every night, and all the hygiene necessities they need for free.

I don't think you should assume they're in Starbucks because the resources aren't available elsewhere.

Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by burkaman on Saturday March 07, 2020 @04:45PM (#22514347)
Austin shelters do not have anywhere close to enough capacity: https://spectrumlocalnews.com/tx/austin/news/2019/10/31/as-s...
Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by _bxg1 on Saturday March 07, 2020 @04:38PM (#22514299)
Austin at least has a massive shortage of homeless shelters. I don't think it's a rare case.
Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by pjc50 on Saturday March 07, 2020 @04:44PM (#22514340)
I find this very hard to believe, and if it's true, someone should tell San Francisco.
Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by lazyasciiart on Saturday March 07, 2020 @04:30PM (#22514237)
I live in a world informed about homelessness and resources available to them. You're wrong.
Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by dang on Saturday March 07, 2020 @07:24PM (#22515263)
Ok, but in that case a good HN comment should share some of what you know so that fair-minded readers can learn. "You're wrong" doesn't teach us anything.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:The Perils of Private Provision of Public Goods by lazyasciiart on Monday March 09, 2020 @12:42AM (#22523050)
I really didn't think anyone needed to learn that homeless people aren't swanning around every major city dining on hot meals three times a day and overwhelmed with choices on shelter and resources. In my experience literate people who argue otherwise are deeply committed to a false worldview and information is no more going to change their minds than a high school science course might change the Westboro Baptist Church.