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Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by papito on Thursday March 05, 2020 @12:54PM (#22496063)
Because most business in the United States is done despite the management, not because of it.
Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by genghisjahn on Thursday March 05, 2020 @01:28PM (#22496444)
Where’s the list of awesome companies that succeed without managers?
Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by dclusin on Thursday March 05, 2020 @01:47PM (#22496657)
Hard to find for sure. There was a time though when we didn't pay CEO's & professional managers 500x as much as the lowest paid employee. When we did that we still managed to go to the moon, split the atom, develop computers, create antibiotics, and lots of other neat things.
Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by cactus2093 on Thursday March 05, 2020 @02:22PM (#22497081)
All of the examples you listed are either NASA or academic research, don't see what that has to do with CEO pay.
Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by bosma on Thursday March 05, 2020 @02:48PM (#22497383)
Do you have evidence for your assertion? Of what significance is the ratio of highest to lowest paid employee? Shareholders of a particular company pay CEOs, not whoever "we" is.

Here is evidence that claim CEOs produce more value than they are compensated for (i.e. they are underpaid): https://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/steven.kaplan/research/kceo... https://econpapers.repec.org/article/inmormnsc/v_3a60_3ay_3a... https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1686068

Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by ahkurtz on Thursday March 05, 2020 @03:18PM (#22497687)
Producing more value than you are compensated for ... hmmm what does that sound like? You could say it sounds like the human condition. Which employees in the pyramid do you think have the worst scalar here?
Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by bosma on Monday March 09, 2020 @12:48PM (#22526882)
The CEO's, it's pretty clear.
Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by Aeolun on Thursday March 05, 2020 @07:28PM (#22499953)
This may be true for CEO’s turning dysfunctional companies around on personal authority, but I find it hard to believe for companies that are already running perfectly well.
Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by nekeo0 on Thursday March 05, 2020 @01:48PM (#22496665)
I have yet to encounter a manager who motivates me to get up and find a way to eat that day.

Just because they are there doesn’t mean the achievements are due to them.

There have been a number of attempts, tens of millions of dollars spent on one study alone, trying to quantify what technologies and people generate value.

The meta-conclusion considering all the studies I know of (traveling and not looking them up), is the math becomes so Byzantine it’s a pointless measure and we should just stick with ideology to avoid blowing up society in people’s minds (an idea that was peddled for thousands of years already, reaffirmed by math, glad we spent the time on it.)

Just because we’ve emotionally conditioned ourselves to engage our mechanical agency towards these ends does not imply it’s because of management.

Manufactured consent is a thing.

Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by lesdeuxmagots on Thursday March 05, 2020 @02:11PM (#22496949)
Hm. Allocating credit for achievements is a tricky thing.

Management is necessary to allocate resources (including labor) efficiently at scale, but it comes with overhead.

As such, at smaller companies, startups, small businesses, the overhead of management can be outsized, the pain felt acutely when compared relatively to the actual output of ICs and such.

At larger companies, the massive cadre of management which is necessary to keep the machine running is also very obvious, as the overhead of a large organization is very large, even if the management itself is excellent and highly efficient.

As such... How does one allocate credit? An analogy would be like financing or investment. Necessary. A filtering mechanism. Sometimes helpful in an advisory mechanism. But are they the ones creating output? No. But do they deserve some credit? If something cannot be done without it, then they must deserve SOME credit, it's just a question of how much.

Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by nekeo0 on Thursday March 05, 2020 @02:29PM (#22497156)
Why does society have to optimize at scale for assigning credit to a minority? If anything the studies show value is emotionally subjective.

A healthy society takes a village. IMO there’s plenty of literal history to show isolating a minority from the demands the rest of us face is ripe for abuse at scale.

One person did not invent languages, lay down the highways and invent computers.

All the people we hold up relied not just on the historical invention to push them forward but society giving them space and not killing them. Every individual inventor is outnumbered.

IMO that space to be and do is what we should optimize for. Not a tether to tradition of emotionally wanking off a handful over what is ultimately a linguistic twist on an idea that was discovered/defined collectively

Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by odshoifsdhfs on Thursday March 05, 2020 @02:08PM (#22496915)
Would be really interested on this paper. When you have time, if you can, mind linking to it?
Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by santoshalper on Thursday March 05, 2020 @02:09PM (#22496925)
What a pile of pretentious bullshit.
Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by nekeo0 on Thursday March 05, 2020 @02:16PM (#22497005)
Yeah, well that’s just like... your opinion, man. Not a very interesting one. Par for the course online.
Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by Retric on Thursday March 05, 2020 @01:30PM (#22496453)
Valve and other flat organizations arguably qualify. Various tiny small startups may qualify depending on what people mean by managers.
Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by groby_b on Thursday March 05, 2020 @02:15PM (#22497000)
Valve is, by all accounts, a toxic cesspit that's ruled by various influential cabals. They still have a hierarchy, they just aren't explicit about it.

At least for Medium, "Holacracy" pretty much imploded. Zsppos switched from it to an internal marketplace - which is, oddly, controlled by excecutives.

Flat organizations beyond a certain size either move away from flatness officially, create unacknowledged hierarchy, or fail. I'm really not aware of a single large-scale example that still works.

This is much different for small orgs - there's something about org size that requires some sort of centralization. (I think it's communications overhead + complexity exceeding the limit of what a single person can keep in their mind. I'm not 100% convinced, but these are the pressure points I usually see)

Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by Retric on Thursday March 05, 2020 @05:00PM (#22498818)
The video game sector is unstable and toxic. IMO, Valve compares favorably to other video game companies as for one thing it’s still in business.

Flat organizations are unusual, but survive about as well as other similar organizations. The difference is when a giant reorganization/buyout etc hits, they more obviously change into something else.

Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by acdha on Thursday March 05, 2020 @01:58PM (#22496782)
“without” is the wrong word: you need managers but they need to have incentives which align with the actual business and accountability. Most companies have problems with at least one of the two, which is a loss but usually indirect enough that it's easy to excuse or deflect.
Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by AlchemistCamp on Thursday March 05, 2020 @01:49PM (#22496691)
Early Google. It worked for quite a while, but hit scaling limits.

Github made it all the way until 2014 (and was a massive success by then) too, IIRC.

Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by papito on Thursday March 05, 2020 @04:23PM (#22498437)
You mean the companies where executives use extensive corporate speak and pull deadlines out of their asses, without checking in with the experts on the ground, triggering office heroics down in the trenches. We'll do it - we all get rent to pay.

Yeah, you can fake through it more than half of the time, comfortably. Just be eloquent, tall, and loud.

Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by a1369209993 on Thursday March 05, 2020 @05:15PM (#22498934)
I don't know, where's the list of people who are healthy without disease-causing bacteria? (Have you washed your hands today?)
Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by xmprt on Thursday March 05, 2020 @01:33PM (#22496491)
Valve is the only one that I've heard of but without manager there need to be a lot of internal politics to get your work done.
Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by optimiz3 on Thursday March 05, 2020 @01:40PM (#22496586)
Has Valve done anything noteworthy in the last 10 years besides milking the Steam store? Their half-baked console seemed like an attempt to do more of the former.
Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by jchw on Thursday March 05, 2020 @01:44PM (#22496633)
I know you are trying to be snarky but Valve has accomplished a hell of a lot more than most startups ever will. They are far from perfect (hell, they’re known for bugs and their famously poor timelines, and I heard their game Artifact was not good,) but it’s pretty bizarre to suggest they do nothing. Maintaining Steam alone is huge. It’s hard to find a platform with more vigorous fanboys for good reason.

But that all aside... I mean they have a new Half Life game on the near term horizon (later this month apparently) and they have done a ton of work on VR and Linux support.

Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by Smaug123 on Thursday March 05, 2020 @01:54PM (#22496746)
Fascinating article by Zvi (a very accomplished Magic: the Gathering player) about Artifact. https://thezvi.wordpress.com/2019/10/08/artifact-what-went-w...

Summary: the game was brilliant ("uniquely amazing") if you were really good at it but was essentially impossible to get into, and its economy was badly constructed.

Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by dang on Friday March 06, 2020 @03:06PM (#22506798)
Discussed at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21199134 a few months ago.
Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by optimiz3 on Thursday March 05, 2020 @02:28PM (#22497148)
Steam has a run rate in the billions! Maintaining something that strong that was built before the last decade is a significant innovation?

Most Startups are at least trying to change the status quo.

Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by jchw on Thursday March 05, 2020 @03:01PM (#22497528)
Yes, it is. Keeping Steam growing and well-liked is an achievement in itself. They never really stood still with it.

Steam certainly challenged the status quo when it was released, and several times in its life.

Hell, who else is working on Linux gaming right now? They were relatively early on game streaming, VR. Steam Workshop? How cool is it that a large amount of one of their flagship games, Team Fortress 2, not only integrated a lot of third party content, but also paid creators back? How cool is it that many games like Counter Strike began as Half Life mods?

I don’t really use Steam much anymore, so it’s not that I’m personally attached much, but I will admit to being pretty impressed.

Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by Reubachi on Thursday March 05, 2020 @02:32PM (#22497183)
Is this sarcasm? Steam has been the only consistent video game Cloud SAAS in the past 10 years.Can you name one time that the service was down without warning/proper recourse, had a data breach, exceeded SLAs, etc?

Also, valve's ther ventures are....massively successful. The microtransaction model in gaming originated with Valve, and now the entire mobile and freemium gaming markets use that business model.

So in this case...I would say yes, everything valve has done as a company trying to make money in the last 10 years is par for other successful SAAS platforms.

Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by rodgerd on Thursday March 05, 2020 @04:27PM (#22498500)
> team has been the only consistent video game Cloud SAAS in the past 10 years.

Xbox Live.

Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by Reubachi on Friday March 06, 2020 @10:55AM (#22504543)
The title of this thread is "Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions", and this comment thread delved into cloud SAAS providers with a flat org structure.

Steam/valve was brought up because they have a successful cloud SASS model with no subscriptions oand a flat org structure.

Xbox live has a subscription fee since day 1, is maintained by MS (the definition of "non-flat organizational structure"), and is vendor locked. Not even remotely comparable.

Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by __s on Thursday March 05, 2020 @02:00PM (#22496812)
Vulkan
Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by lazyier on Thursday March 05, 2020 @02:04PM (#22496855)
Any small business, really.

This is what 'agile' is supposed to emulate for larger businesses.

Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by fludlight on Thursday March 05, 2020 @01:07PM (#22496210)
> Because most work in the world is done despite the management, not because of it.

FTFY

Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by roel_v on Thursday March 05, 2020 @07:13PM (#22499843)
Had to double check if I was on HN or on ca. 1999 Slashdot...
Re:Companies fret as costs soar for software subscriptions (... by cpach on Thursday March 05, 2020 @01:06PM (#22496194)
Is it different in other countries?