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Re:Hard Startups by beat on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:53PM (#22426627)
Right. Which is why government research is probably a better model for these world-changing basic technologies than Silicon Valley.

Ugh, can you imagine how bad TCP/IP would have sucked if it had been developed by venture capital funding?

Re:Hard Startups by rossdavidh on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:25PM (#22428079)
There are a few examples of government agencies which can make many parallel bets, on the understanding that most will fail but a few may pay off big. But, by "a few examples", I actually just mean DARPA. I'm sure there are others, not many though.

Politics does not work well with "most of these projects failed". It's too easy of a target. Anything that failed, is an easy target for a congressman to take aim at as being "wasted", because in some sense that particular investment was wasted, in the same sense that every insurance payment is wasted except for the one right before you need insurance.

But, the logic behind "many long-shot bets in parallel" is inherently more difficult to explain in the political arena, which is why I think VC may actually be better at some of these kinds of things.

Re:Hard Startups by mattkrause on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:44PM (#22429893)
I’m not sure that’s really true.

The NIH budget is about $40B, 90 percent of which goes to research via about 50,000 extramural grants and the NIH’s own intramural research program. Very little of this is expected to “work” in the sense that it produces an immediate improvement in human health. Same goes for the NSF. The DoE, NASA, and DoD also fund plenty of research beyond the ARPAs (DARPA, IARPA, HSARPA, etc).

The ARPA programs are outliers in that they’re more likely to take larger risks in exchange for bigger rewards, while the NIH (etc) are more incremental. Nevertheless, it’s not true that these programs try to avoid ‘failures’ at all costs.

Re:Hard Startups by scroot on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:13PM (#22428986)
> But, the logic behind "many long-shot bets in parallel" is inherently more difficult to explain in the political arena, which is why I think VC may actually be better at some of these kinds of things

This does not mean the VC will actually be better at the task (producing better basic research results), but that it is more realistically going to get the funding in the current climate.

If you look at what's worked for computing in the past -- where the real qualitative changes came from, in terms of basic research -- you have ARPA, PARC, and Bell Labs. They all had the following in common:

- Long-term time horizons of 5-10 years minimum; - Lots of funding with few strings attached - Funded people, not projects - Operated in a given context, but goals were vague (enough freedom to play)

Any funding model that is sensitive to the pressures of quarterly earnings reports is not going to be able to do any of this. Which is precisely why most of the improvements in computing since the early 80s have come as side effects from quantitative improvements like speed, memory, cost, etc.

The current computing culture, and especially the funding model behind it, will not give us the big new inventions we hope for.

Re:Hard Startups by SolarNet on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:48PM (#22428305)
> I actually just mean DARPA

NASA is the obvious next example. They pay for a lot of esoteric stuff that once made they don't actually end up needing - but having paid the startup costs - end up contributing to other fields.

I think FEMA also does similar things though at a much less parallel (but a higher volume).

Most of the "regulate and promote an industry" (a dumb idea for structuring them but I digress) agencies also do this. The NRC for example does a lot of research on storing and recycling nuclear waste, but also on new nuclear technologies.

And other military agencies aren't worth leaving out. The army core of engineers pushes a lot of contractors to deliver unique solutions that end up getting resold, see the concrete barriers in Iraq.

Re:Hard Startups by killjoywashere on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:58PM (#22428385)
IARPA, DTRA, SCO, DIU. The DoD spends like 50B a year in research and development.

NIH and CDMRP grant programs is several additional billion.

Re:Hard Startups by mattkrause on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:45PM (#22429899)
NIH is about 40 billion, and does a lot less development.
Re:Hard Startups by rossdavidh on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @11:19PM (#22430409)
NASA had, at one time, a "cheaper, smaller, faster" strategy, which they then abandoned the first time it resulted in a mission failure. If they had the 90% failure rate of many VC's, betting on lots of 100x but only 10% of the time startups, they would have been shut down.
Re:Hard Startups by buzzkillington on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:27PM (#22429085)
>But, the logic behind "many long-shot bets in parallel" is inherently more difficult to explain in the political arena, which is why I think VC may actually be better at some of these kinds of things.

VC backed rockets have already taken longer to take a human to orbit than government money took to take a human to the moon. This is on top of the fact that they have had 60 years of technological improvement.

Simply put VC and capitalism in general is great for giving you turds rolled in glitter, less for building the sewage system to flush the turds out.

Re:Hard Startups by lmm on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:14PM (#22429730)
The amount of money matters too. I'm sure if we were willing to plough 5% of the US budget into the VC approach we'd see bigger results.
Re:Hard Startups by buzzkillington on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @11:48PM (#22430557)
It took 5 years to go from the creation of Nasa to a manned Mercury-Atlas.

We still haven't seen any of the space startups match a manned Mercury-Redsone, which took 3 years.

During the Mercury program Nasa was using on average 0.4% of the federal budget, which was little over 2 billion a year in 2020 dollars.

The big spending was on the Apollo missions which are pipe dreams for any of the current space startups 15 years after their foundation.

Re:Hard Startups by jwatte on Thursday February 27, 2020 @12:50PM (#22435682)
The safety culture and degree of acceptable risk is somewhat different now, from when we were sure we'd get nuked by the Russians in a month. (And also still thought smoking was healthy.)
Re:Hard Startups by TuringNYC on Thursday February 27, 2020 @12:12AM (#22430703)
You are comparing a different time in the US to now. I dont think this is a fair comparison, everything takes longer now -- buildings, bridges, tunnels. I'm amazed to hear how quickly subways in NYC were built -- these days it takes a decade to build a handful of stops.

I dont think it has to do with startups vs not.

Re:Hard Startups by marcosdumay on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @03:40PM (#22427088)
> Ugh, can you imagine how bad TCP/IP would have sucked if it had been developed by venture capital funding?

It was. Several times. It was developed by a lot of large companies too. Nobody remember those, for obvious reasons, but people used to use them.

Re:Hard Startups by cbhl on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @04:27PM (#22427524)
Novell had NetWare and IPX. Apple had AppleTalk. There was also Token ring...
Re:Hard Startups by Animats on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:26PM (#22429078)
Even the Stanford/Cisco people were thinking "multiprotocol gateway" back then. Much of the push for TCP/IP came from the buy side. I did my networking work when I was at a big aerospace company, and we wanted everything to talk to everything else. Not have DECNET<->SNA<->XNS<->X.25<->TP4 gateways trying to interconvert. The vendors all pushed their proprietary systems.

Even Berkeley didn't get it at first. Early Berkeley TCP/IP only talked to other Berkeley TCP/IP systems. They had to be beaten on to get interoperability to work. 4.3BSD shipped with broken sequence number arithmetic that only talked to itself until we fixed that.

This was back when big buyers had more clout than software vendors. It's hard to do that today.

Re:Hard Startups by stainforth on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @11:49PM (#22430566)
I truly believe suppliers have more influence on market creation direction than buyers, to all of our detriment.
Re:Hard Startups by baddox on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:31PM (#22429494)
Wouldn't TCP/IP run on token ring? My understanding that token ring is at the same layer as Ethernet, and thus wouldn't exactly be a competitor for TCP/IP.
Re:Hard Startups by pinewurst on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:11PM (#22428506)
Though IPX and friends are children of Xerox’s XNS.
Re:Hard Startups by 1996 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @03:50PM (#22427187)
People like to forget. It helps pretend government research and alliances always produce the best outcomes.

Your example may be a bit too old. Even novell netware, token ring etc won't ring a bell to many people.

Try a simpler one instead: Do you guys remember about the various wireless standards before Wifi?

The Orinocos and the Intel 2011 PCMCIA were IIRC among the first ones of the 802.11b - quickly eclipsing everything else.

Also, what about DECT from about the same period? Some companies (mostly in Europe) tried to make an equivalent of Wifi, but using DECT modems. Some devices even made it to the market!

Re:Hard Startups by marcosdumay on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:43PM (#22428768)
> It helps pretend government research and alliances always produce the best outcomes.

Well, at least on this case government research did produce the best outcome. By far. So far no comparison even makes sense, and people don't even remember there were other attempts.

Re:Hard Startups by 1996 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:54PM (#22428852)
So you mean, when something fit their narrative (here: government research is better) people forget about other attempts? And counter examples in similar domains (here: wifi) are also dismissed?

Color me impressed!

Re:Hard Startups by pnako on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:59PM (#22429308)
Wifi is not a counter example. The underlying technology was invented at CSIRO, the Australian government research agency.
Re:Hard Startups by 1996 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:57PM (#22430302)
Something must be invented somewhere. All I say is government research is not necessarily "better". It just is.
Re:Hard Startups by pnako on Thursday February 27, 2020 @01:09AM (#22430984)
I don't know if it's better or worse, but since governments have a much longer time horizon they can fund more basic research.
Re:Hard Startups by beat on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:27PM (#22428100)
You're talking about the product of standards committees there, not startups. Standards committees are sort of "We're doing this so no one company owns/controls this basic tech, so we can all build new and interoperable products with the basic tech and make money!"
Re:Hard Startups by 1996 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:33PM (#22428169)
The beauty of standards is that there are so many to chose from! So it's not very different from startups.

Eventually, somethings dominate whether it comes from a standard body or is "branded" as a standard ex-post.

Re:Hard Startups by Gatsky on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:36PM (#22429515)
The importance of government research is waning. Most academics vying for government funding are in various states of despair. The blow up in the size of universities and the number of PhDs etc has created a lot of competition with perverse incentives. In biotech, nothing interesting gets done without very early private investment (pharma mainly, some VCs).
Re:Hard Startups by erobbins on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @03:11PM (#22426814)
which tcp/ip? There would be 10, all with incomplete feature sets and poor reliability.
Re:Hard Startups by streb-lo on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @03:21PM (#22426899)
"Here at bleh we've developed a revolutionary method for transmitting your TCP/IP packets on-chain using AI to perform network level flow control."
Re:Hard Startups by outworlder on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @03:38PM (#22427059)
The system would probably store all packets in a block chain and routing would be based on a machine learning system.
Re:Hard Startups by jerf on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @03:53PM (#22427211)
"Our router can route an astonishing 2,000 packets per second! No other router can offer you this sort of performance! Blockchain. Go ahead. Ask our competitors if they can match this. You'll find their jaw drops and that they'll tell you that this level of performance shouldn't even be possible on commodity hardware! Our experts hand-tuned the multi-billion parameter neural nets our product uses. The competition wouldn't even dream of putting neural nets of this scale into their routers. That's how far ahead we are on this. You can't get this sort of performance from anyone else in the business!"

     Your Email: (                       )
     [ Yes, contact me and tell me MORE! ]
Re:Hard Startups by ignoramous on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @04:22PM (#22427481)
That made me chuckle. I cringe at exaggerated, buzz-wordy, vague sales-copy as much as the other person, but isn't it shown to work (by Apple et al)? I'd be interested if you or anyone else have examples of to-the-point landing pages / sales-copy with zero exaggeration and gimmicks.

I liked the WhatsApp's back in the day [0], but they had a lot going for them and didn't need any extraordinary claims. MissiveApp [1] is another one that feels comfortable, to me.

[0] https://web.archive.org/web/20090914114259/http://www.whatsa...

[1] https://missiveapp.com

Re:Hard Startups by aogl on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:32PM (#22428674)
Ahhh, don't tell all our secrets to the world! "It's not ready yet"
Re:Hard Startups by mef on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @03:23PM (#22426914)
and all proprietary
Re:Hard Startups by paulddraper on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:07PM (#22427896)
As it is, we've only had half that many versions, all incompatible and multiple in common use today with no end in sight.
Re:Hard Startups by paulddraper on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:04PM (#22427866)
Is that true though?

Nobody -- public, private, international -- has had any luck in fusion. I think that has more to do with the problem itself.

But consider "world-changing" technologies like electric cars. The SV model doesn't see so terrible, does it?

(Yes, I know about government grants. It's still a primarily private industry play.)

Re:Hard Startups by lmm on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:25PM (#22429789)
I saw a controversy recently in an open-source project where someone who packaged up the implementation with a friendly GUI was making thousands a month on Patreon, while none of that was going to the people who actually implemented the hard technical parts.

Credit for these technologies can seem similar - the government does all the basic research (through universities etc), funds the development of the tech through grants and the like, and Silicon Valley just does the customer-facing part and picks up all the credit.

Re:Hard Startups by zeveb on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:54PM (#22428350)
Well, TCP/IP was the military version: the international government version was the misbegotten OSI protocol stack (yes, before it was in irrelevant model on every IT certification exam, OSI was an actual collection of protocol standards), so governments can produce pretty nasty technologies too.
Re:Hard Startups by heartbeats on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @03:26PM (#22426945)
If you want a vision of the future, imagine JavaScript running on a cloud - forever.
Re:Hard Startups by mc32 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @03:29PM (#22426980)
Or companies which can afford research fellows working on fundamental technologies with a very long view.
Re:Hard Startups by heartbeats on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:21PM (#22429046)
Snark aside, that is a good point. Erlang is a nice language and it was developed as a pretty short-term project to fill a specific need. In fact, you might even argue it is a nice language because it was developed as a pretty short-term project to fill a specific need.