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Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by thaumasiotes on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:56AM (#22422903)
Pretty interesting article.

> "Google Chrome ads started appearing next to Firefox search terms. Gmail & [Google] Docs started to experience selective performance issues and bugs on Firefox. Demo sites would falsely block Firefox as 'incompatible'," he said.

> "All of this is stuff you're allowed to do to compete, of course. But we were still a search partner, so we'd say 'hey what gives?' And every time, they'd say, 'oops. That was accidental. We'll fix it in the next push in 2 weeks.'

> "Over and over. Oops. Another accident. We'll fix it soon. We want the same things. We're on the same team. There were dozens of oopses. Hundreds maybe?"

> "I'm all for 'don't attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence' but I don't believe Google is that incompetent. I think they were running out the clock. We lost users during every oops. And we spent effort and frustration every clock tick on that instead of improving our product. We got outfoxed for a while and by the time we started calling it what it was, a lot of damage had been done," Nightingale said.

You can do a lot more damage as a trusted friend than you can as a known enemy.

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by amelius on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:04AM (#22422970)
> Google Chrome ads started appearing next to Firefox search terms

Why don't webdevs fight back and put "best viewed on Firefox" pop-ups on their pages (whenever the user is using Chrome).

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:06AM (#22422994)
Microsoft can and does do this now in retaliation, they own enough web properties that this makes a difference. Firefox doesn’t have a huge web presence though, nothing anywhere on par with Google advertising their browser in their search engine and email client.

Unfortunately, from my experience many third party web developers only test in Chrome, and hence actually encourage Chrome use even when there’s no incompatibility with Firefox or Edge.

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by ineedasername on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:41AM (#22423936)
If browser market share trends are comparable among webdevs & non-webdevs, a majority of webdevs are still using Chrome as their primary browser.
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by amelius on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:30PM (#22425141)
Perhaps Firefox should invest more heavily on developer tools then.
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by AJ007 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:11AM (#22423021)
I’ve started doing this. In the case of CCPA, GDPR disclosures and “do not track” requirements I suggest uninstalling Chrome and all Google software and switching to Firefox with proper as locking software enabled. I think Google is compliant with neither, and if a user is actually concerned about their privacy they definitely shouldn’t be using Chrome.
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by ORioN63 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @11:12AM (#22424269)
It would be great to understand the downvotes on this.

Chrome/Chromium phones home, period. Last time I've personally checked this [1] was still true.

It's hard to argue that Google doesn't have an interest on collecting as much data it can. Especially, since their heavy focus on ML, where the algorithms are very data-hungry.

[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/Chromium/comments/3fgabt/privacy_is...

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by tapoxi on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:07AM (#22423554)
Netscape Now!
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by mickotron on Thursday February 27, 2020 @02:10AM (#22431314)
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by option on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:19AM (#22423677)
browser is too important piece of everyday computing for the masses to leave in the hands of Big Corp. This is why my family uses Firefox
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by mr_toad on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:10PM (#22428502)
> Why don't webdevs fight back

Seems to be fairly common to see a “works on Chrome, my job is done” attitude. Especially with SPAs.

I worry that we’re going to see another generation of crappy line of business apps that only work (badly) in one browser because of this attitude.

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by thewebcount on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:06PM (#22427887)
As someone who uses neither a Chromium-based browser nor Firefox, I certainly would not like that. Web devs shouldn't be deciding what tools users use to view their pages. They should strive to create sites that work on anything.
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by judge2020 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:42AM (#22423940)
I don't see how that would be a true statement in almost any context, barring specifically using features that you know Chrome doesn't work well with or going through the chromium bug tracker to find things to do that break Chrome.
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by Retric on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:57AM (#22424102)
If developers use Firefox instead of Chrome you do get some rendering bugs in Chrome. Standard compliance have gotten much better, but at one point in my last project Edge, Safari, Chrome, and Firefox where all doing different things while I was trying to fix an odd CSS issue.
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by derekp7 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @11:17AM (#22424317)
I had something similar, then I dug into it and found that my CSS was not specified correctly. After looking into the spec, I realized that what I thought Firefox was doing wrong, was actually the correct behavior. Chrome and Edge just covered up my mistake is all.
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by greglindahl on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:44PM (#22425283)
Yes. It's easy to end up being confused by different applications of Postel's Law.
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by fiddlerwoaroof on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @11:28AM (#22424439)
This is part of the reason I use Safari as my default browser
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by viridian on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:55PM (#22425417)
I hope this is a joke. Safari is easily the worst of the big four, and view web standards as suggestions that are to be ignored at any time. My company doesn't support IE anymore, but safari, not edge, is the new hated browser for web dev for sure.
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by robertoandred on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @01:14PM (#22425603)
Compared to what, Chrome? It took them how long to get position sticky, backdrop filters, etc? Meanwhile Google views web standards as their property they can willy-nilly do with what they please.
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by fiddlerwoaroof on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @01:25PM (#22425704)
I’m still irritated that only Safari implements tail call elimination as specified in the ES6 spec.
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by SalimoS on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @01:27PM (#22425720)
Talking from the user perspective ? The chrome/ram meme are enough to explain the issue And I’m sure macbook owners care about battery more than what you think !

And for the argument of Safari is the hated browser I’m more than okey with that at least they still test for it (I feel sorry for Firefox because the oups we didn’t test blablabla

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by fiddlerwoaroof on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:57PM (#22425437)
I use Safari so that someone captures user issues that result from developing for Chrome. Other people on the team use mostly Firefox/Chrome so we have coverage of all the major browsers we target.
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by ArchReaper on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:32PM (#22425157)
Why? Safari is the worst out of all of the current options as far as CSS rendering goes.
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by fiddlerwoaroof on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:55PM (#22425415)
So not everyone on my team is using Chrome to view the sites we’re working on.

But also, ime, Safari has the best UX of all the browsers I’ve tried.

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by drewg123 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:44AM (#22423978)
> [Google] Docs started to experience selective performance issues and bugs on Firefox

As a firefox user, the thing that annoys the hell out of me is the inability to use the mouse menu for cut and paste in Google Docs unless you're using chrome. I don't understand why it forces you to use the keyboard shortcut. I'm an emacs user, and find the windows-y keyboard shortcuts foreign, so I have to think about them, and prefer just using the right-click mouse menu.

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by nikofeyn on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @01:56PM (#22425983)
> I'm an emacs user, and find the windows-y keyboard shortcuts foreign, so I have to think about them, and prefer just using the right-click mouse menu.

it's a little surprising to me that you can't remember cut, copy, and paste that works on any computer in the last two decades but can remember all of the esoteric emacs shortcuts, which include references to a key that doesn't even exist.

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by drewg123 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:51PM (#22426603)
Emacs is unchanged muscle memory for the last 30+ years. Cut is ctrl-k (or ctrl-w depending on your perspective), yank is ctrl-y. How many WYSIWYG editors have risen and died in that time? How many desktop environments?

And the "cut copy and paste that works on any computer" -- on a windows pc its ctrl-blah, and on a mac its cmd-blah.

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by sp332 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:53AM (#22424053)
I just tried this in Firefox and it worked fine?
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by benjaminjackman on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:56AM (#22424088)
I think it was recently fixed, because I remember getting the messages gp mentions but haven’t for a while now.
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by cptskippy on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:13PM (#22426183)
For me, Copy works but Paste results in dialog telling me to use the keyboard.
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by kingofpandora on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:58AM (#22424105)
I used to have this problem but the behaviour has changed and it works fine now.
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by drewg123 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:52PM (#22426620)
I just got it today, with firefox 73
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by joshspankit on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:10PM (#22424936)
This whole thing seems somewhat ridiculous to me. If there is intent here (which evidence seems to dictate that there is), then Google is playing a very short-term game and Google’s strength has been it’s long-term thinking.

There’s not even much to argue about: web tech is standardized, and each vendor can (and should) be held to an objective measurement o how well they implement the spec. When MS chooses to make spec-compliant sites, they should be easily (and even publicly) able to say “hey your browser is out of spec, and this is why”.

Just so odd to think that these sort of classroom politics still happen.

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by xienze on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:39AM (#22423246)
> All of this is stuff you're allowed to do to compete, of course.

Is it though? It blows my mind how Google gets a pass on stuff like this. Way back when MS got slapped for monopolistic practices the key argument was that by bundling IE with Windows they were leveraging their dominant position in desktop OSs to gain an unfair advantage in another industry (browsers/web, via IE).

Meanwhile Google leverages their position in search, email, etc. to push Chrome and whatever else, and no one bats an eye.

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by icebraining on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:34AM (#22423852)
Presumably there's an investigation ongoing in the US: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/09/google-an...

That's besides the EU's investigation and fine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_vs._Google#Andr...

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by mey on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:53AM (#22423405)
Or bundling Chrome and Android
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by icebraining on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:36AM (#22423874)
Supposedly they now ask users in the EU which browser they want to use: https://www.blog.google/around-the-globe/google-europe/suppo...

I can't say I've ever seen that dialog, though.

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by QuesnayJr on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:26PM (#22425101)
I got a popup telling me I could install other browsers, and some directions on how to do so. I knew it had to be in response to the EU case, but you couldn't tell from the phrasing that they did it involuntarily.
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by oblio on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:21AM (#22423097)
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by ignoramous on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:26AM (#22423145)
> Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

Ironically, it seems Google did just that to the detriment of Mozilla. Browser Wars are such shit-shows.

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by ksec on Sunday March 01, 2020 @03:36PM (#22459132)
>Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

Whoever said that didn't have many enemies.

- Stannis Baratheon

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by _5659 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @01:45PM (#22425871)
> You can do a lot more damage as a trusted friend than you can as a known enemy.

Reminds me of the Young Pope's first episode.

"Friendly relationships are dangerous. They lend themselves to ambiguities, misunderstandings, and conflicts, and they always end badly. Formal relationships, on the other hand, are as clear as spring water."

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by cbhl on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:36PM (#22425195)
In my opinion, it's very difficult to use a Windows machine as your daily driver as a Software Engineer at Google. Windows VMs are banned by corporate policy. Getting an extra Windows laptop to test things requires a business reason and approval from a VP.
Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by vatueil on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:08PM (#22424917)
> "When I started at Mozilla in 2007 there was no Google Chrome, and most folks we spoke with inside [Google] were Firefox fans," Nightingale recollected in a Twitter thread on Saturday.

> "When Chrome launched...

... many of those same folks started to use Chrome, making it easier to miss Firefox bugs?

Jonathan Nightingale is claiming a company-wide conspiracy ("coordinated plan" in Jonathan's words) across "hundreds" of different product teams could be executed without any Firefox users or other internal Mozilla sympathizers picking up on it.

We're talking Google here: they have a hard enough time coordinating internally when they're openly trying.

This seems like a very complicated theory when the natural consequences of everyone switching to a different product provide an obvious and ready explanation for what we're seeing.

Ideally developers ought to test everything across different browsers, I agree, but we know in practice developers are only human and humans are lazy. And testing is still no substitute for using a browser day in and day out.

I want better support for Firefox and other browsers, but blaming lack of support on a conspiracy is an easy cop-out that doesn't help us address the real issues at stake.

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by leshenka on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @01:05PM (#22425522)
> We're talking Google here: they have a hard enough time coordinating internally when they're openly trying.

Yet for some reason each oops only resulted in Google's favor. It's like slipping on banana peel and doing a perfect backflip. Every time.

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by WorldMaker on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @04:32PM (#22427580)
> We're talking Google here: they have a hard enough time coordinating internally when they're openly trying.

Which is an interesting point here: is Google a drunken master pretending to be an incompetent but way more coordinated than they appear or is Google simply an incompetent company whose left hand never knows what its right hand is doing, but yet has been extremely lucky at pretending to be competent?

(Either way, given such history how can you trust anything about Google if they seem so uncoordinated and prone to so many "oops"?)

Re:Google Chrome's fear of Microsoft Edge is revealing its b... by Middleclass on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:07AM (#22423000)
If you replace "friend" with "courtesan" or "prostitute" your analysis is correct.