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Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by clarry on Saturday February 22, 2020 @05:41AM (#22390327)
> Public salaries on the other hand reduce a company's flexibility: When negotiating a new contract, they cannot offer 10% more anymore.

Why not?

Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by ChuckNorris89 on Saturday February 22, 2020 @05:53AM (#22390360)
Because then every other employee already working there would want that extra 10% the new guy got so the company's salary expenses would spiral out of control(or reaching their actual market value, as it rightfully should be).

People wouldn't be job hopping if you could get the same raise as the new guys.

Not saying I like this but it's the current situation in Europe where the power lies with the company and the ones who loose are those that are too loyal to the company(most employees outside SW dev don't bother looking around every few years like we do).

Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by black_puppydog on Saturday February 22, 2020 @06:00AM (#22390385)
1. If the new hire is worth 10% more, then the employer will be able to justify that. "He's got much more experience than you" or such. Put differently: you can only offer those extra 10% if you can actually justify it in a way that others agree with you. Might actually turn out to be a rationality corrective so to say.

2. If you don't want people to job-hop because they see what some new hire earns, then you're either overpaying the new one (and unnecessarily alienating your workers) or you're underpaying the current employees, and you should raise their salary or expect them to hop.

Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by ChuckNorris89 on Saturday February 22, 2020 @06:07AM (#22390402)
1. Worth is relative. You can't know the performance of someone you've just interviewed for an hour to someone who's been working there for years. The new guy might just be good at whiteboarding and negotiating but could be a mediocre employee at best on your codebase. When you get a job your pay isn't dictated by your "worth", whatever that is, but by current market conditions.

2. That's how it should be in an ideal world but the reality is different and companies know through years of experience that the current system works better for them rather than the one you'd want.

Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by madeofpalk on Saturday February 22, 2020 @06:16AM (#22390435)
> Worth is relative. You can't know the performance of someone you've just interviewed for an hour to someone who's been working there for years

Supposedly you can because you're offering them 10% more than the rest of your employees...

Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by ChuckNorris89 on Saturday February 22, 2020 @06:46AM (#22390532)
Like I said previously, you're offering them 10% more because of market conditions(you need some fresh meat on your project ASAP), not because of their (yet unknown) performance, and hedge your bets that the ones already working for you won't find out(here salaries are confidential) or are to tied down to be looking for new jobs so soon.

I hate this approach, but for most companies in Europe it's the reality that works in their favor.

Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by yibg on Saturday February 22, 2020 @03:33PM (#22393162)
Lots of reasons view points could be different:

- Worth is subjective. I'm sure we've all had conversations about someone where some view the person as great and others view the same person as meh or under performing. Value is also determined based on information, which usually people don't have the same amount of. So very possible the hiring person or committee sees different value in a person than fellow engineers or teammates.

- Value judgement, especially for hiring is also point in time. Could very well be the person as presented during interview is a rockstar, but after landing on the team doesn't perform well for whatever reason.

Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by AmericanChopper on Saturday February 22, 2020 @06:44AM (#22390523)
> If the new hire is worth 10% more, then the employer will be able to justify that.

If you have established salary bands, then you cannot justify offering somebody something outside of that range. That defeats the entire purpose of having salary bands to begin with, and not complying with them would be lying to your employees. What salary bands are, is a levelling mechanism. The answer to “why does x get paid more than me?” should be “because for some particular reason we decided x was worth more to us than you”. With the levelling mechanism, you have less options for paying people what they’re worth, instead you simply decide that everybody will get paid +/- a few % of whatever the average value of an employee in that role is, regardless of their contribution.

Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by sokoloff on Saturday February 22, 2020 @07:45AM (#22390722)
If those bands are more narrow than the distribution of talent/contribution at any given level, then you’re very likely to shut yourself out from the top contributors. In my experience, bands are always vastly more narrow.
Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by 101404 on Saturday February 22, 2020 @06:59AM (#22390571)
> use then every other employee already working there would want that extra 10% the new guy got

Not if the new guy is 10% better at what they do.

And if he's not, then maybe the others actually deserve that 10% more.

Good thing.

Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by BeetleB on Saturday February 22, 2020 @07:30AM (#22390671)
> Not if the new guy is 10% better at what they do.

In most cases, this is not the case. In fact, it's often the case that the new person is really new and will require significant hand holding to be productive.

They pay them 10% more because the new person has multiple offers, and most existing employees aren't seeking alternatives, so they have little leverage.

Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by 101404 on Saturday February 22, 2020 @11:06AM (#22391649)
So, at the moment, loyalty is punished.

Seems to be a good idea to change that.

Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by clarry on Saturday February 22, 2020 @06:06AM (#22390398)
> People wouldn't be job hopping if you could get the same raise as the new guys.

This sounds like a massive win for all but the bottom of the barrel tier companies. Finding and training new people (while giving them 10% more) as the old guys who know their shit leave for a better job is super expensive.

Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by ChuckNorris89 on Saturday February 22, 2020 @06:11AM (#22390420)
That's the thing, most "old" guys don't leave since they get too busy with their private life(building a house, having kids) or they pidgeonholed themselves into some company specific niche with few options around or they got Job Stockholm Syndrome and are less inclined to shop around for better gigs.
Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by clarry on Saturday February 22, 2020 @06:17AM (#22390437)
The current situation is that you get a raise if you change jobs. So anyone who wants a better salary is currently very much encouraged to hop jobs.

If companies had pressure to give raises internally, this would give less reason to hop jobs. I think that's a good thing for mostly everyone (including their employers). Everyone except dirt cheap shops where nobody wants to work anyway if they have choices.

Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by ChuckNorris89 on Saturday February 22, 2020 @06:27AM (#22390469)
>So anyone who wants a better salary is currently very much encouraged to hop jobs

But who is encouraging you? Since in Europe/Rest of the World(except US/UK) companies never mention how much they're willing to pay and even the recruiters they hire are sometimes not allowed to mention the upper range to their candidates. So nobody knows they're underpaid unless you're willing to take your free time and apply to jobs, contact recruiters and go interview at a few companies and go through some rounds of negotiations.

And even then lots of companies will look at your application very suspiciously that you're applying to new jobs so soon and they'll expect something's wrong with your relationship with your current employer or with you so some might not even make you an offer.

For most senior employees with families that's a lot of trouble to go through so they don't even bother unless a recruiter knocks on their door with the offer of a lifetime.

Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by Spooky23 on Saturday February 22, 2020 @07:09AM (#22390602)
People want all sorts of things, it doesn’t mean they get them. The US doesn’t have organized labor anymore for the most part, and companies don’t give a shit about people’s feelings.
Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by watwut on Saturday February 22, 2020 @05:57AM (#22390369)
The question is whether it is overall good system to punish people for staying asuming same quality of work.
Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by ChuckNorris89 on Saturday February 22, 2020 @06:03AM (#22390391)
The current system of punishing people who stay long at a company is still in place because it works, and it works very well.

Lots of employees here have bought into this company spread propaganda that job hopping like in the US will make you unemployable in the future.

As the employees get older and get tied down with families and homes and also Job Stockholm Syndrome they're less likely to shop around for new jobs so the savings on salaries on seniors being paid below market are huge.

Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by watwut on Saturday February 22, 2020 @04:08PM (#22393327)
Is it working well? Average software projects, codebases and their management are messy almost disasters. For many reasons. But half a team being either new or right before leaving is definitely not helping. The fact that people leave before they can find the right match position in company or team, learn it well and spend some time there is not helping.

And afaik, large companies and large successful projects tend to have more stable core team behind them.

Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by oAlbe on Saturday February 22, 2020 @07:13AM (#22390617)
> Lots of employees here have bought into this company spread propaganda that job hopping like in the US will make you unemployable in the future.

But is that ultimately true? It feels to me that the companies hold the power to make that true, regardless of the propaganda. So even if you try to job hop, after a certain age they have all the power to make you unemployable. Am I wrong? (I hope I am)

Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by jb775 on Saturday February 22, 2020 @01:31PM (#22392483)
I think it depends if the job is a "lifelong-learning" type of job or not. I don't think anyone would say a doctor is unemployable because they moved to a new hospital every 2 years. I think software development is a lifelong-learning type industry where job hopping can actually be beneficial - you get to re-hone your existing skillset from a new perspective and are forced to constantly learn new tools.

I think constant job hopping is bad in 3 situations: 1) If you work a non lifelong-learning job. 2) If you work a job that is mostly industry-specific relationship based. 3) If you are jumping around to different job roles entirely, where you never really become exceptionally talented at any single role.

My general rule of thumb for deciding when to job hop is when I feel as if I've stopped learning new things.

Re:Breaking the Salary Sharing Taboo by mcphage on Saturday February 22, 2020 @08:11AM (#22390807)
> People wouldn't be job hopping if you could get the same raise as the new guys.

That sounds like a huge win for companies.