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Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by ping_pong on Friday February 07, 2020 @05:11PM (#22271615)
The other thing that would happen that no one talks about is that electricity rates would skyrocket because the power company wasn't making enough money. This is exactly what happened in Ontario, Canada. People started conserving and it caused rates to go up. Same thing happened with water in California (at least the Bay Area). People started conserving better, so to reward us, they raised water rates.
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by gruez on Friday February 07, 2020 @05:14PM (#22271655)
Sounds like the reasonable thing to do is to the electric bill into a fixed fee portion (infrastructure) and a variable fee portion (energy).
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by icebraining on Friday February 07, 2020 @05:28PM (#22271811)
This is exactly what is done in some countries, like Portugal.

The main difference is that a fully variable model subsidizes solar panel owners at the expense of the other clients, which makes solar panels a more attractive investment, whereas here the case for home solar is much weaker, particularly for low energy consumers.

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by kwhitefoot on Friday February 07, 2020 @05:41PM (#22271920)
In Norway we pay three different amounts, sometimes to two separate entities.

I pay the company that supplies the electricity per kilowatt-hour for the energy and the company that owns the local distribution network for the rental of the cables and a per kilowatt-hour fee for transporting the energy.

In my case it is just one company but the energy supplier could be separate from the infrastructure owner.

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by mehhh on Saturday February 08, 2020 @02:39AM (#22274545)
This kind of "free market" for electricity tends to drive up infrastructure costs needlessly (see Australia), while incentivizing bad behaviour by generation suppliers in the market (see Enron).

Public utilities generally provide a higher caliber of service at a lower price, with less administrative bloat.

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by angry_octet on Saturday February 08, 2020 @09:28AM (#22275857)
Depends on the state, but in Vic the 'poles and wires' component, both in distribution (suburb) and transmission (pylons) costs are built into the fee that is charged for electricity supply (cost of connectivity) in a positive feedback loop: the more the companies invested, the more they could charge.

This was designed to avoid the 'run it into the ground's privatisation mentality, but it went the other way. Sadly, there was no price component for improving the network with new ideas, so it is still the same design as 100 years ago.

A system designed by accountants has done things accountants love, and nothing for electrical engineering or the citizens. Surprise.

The old SEC wasn't innovative or cheap, and neither is the privatised system. For incentives to be effective they have to be broken down to be smaller components rewarding specific conduct, and tweaked in response to system performance.

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by probablypower on Saturday February 08, 2020 @06:50AM (#22275284)
The ownership of utilities and the cost of their infrastructure investments has nothing to do with the 'freeness' of electricity markets.

The performance of utilities is more a function of regulatory power and willingness to regulate rather than utility ownership.

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by Scoundreller on Friday February 07, 2020 @05:54PM (#22272026)
Please tell me it’s at least coordinated enough that the two entities send it together on one bill.
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by kwhitefoot on Saturday February 08, 2020 @05:12AM (#22275027)
Usually it's one bill. But even if it weren't it's not a problem because the bill goes straight to my bank and I pay by direct debit. The bank notifies me in plenty of time by email. We don't use paper bills and invoices much in Norway any more. After the first one or two from a new supplier most people switch to email billing and direct debit (eFaktura and Avtalegiro).
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by unhammer on Saturday February 08, 2020 @03:43AM (#22274751)
I just get one bill, even though in my case it's two companies (because I shopped around)
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by scythe on Friday February 07, 2020 @09:32PM (#22273398)
It’s more important to subsidize new technologies. Now that solar panels have a foothold, the economic case has gotten dramatically stronger because they’re cheaper. Even if electric bills change, I thinks uptake would continue.
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by earthboundkid on Friday February 07, 2020 @09:58PM (#22273495)
I live in Baltimore and have solar panels. I get a bill for around $15 IIRC even in months when I make more electricity than I use. I assume that’s an infrastructure fee.
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by Scoundreller on Friday February 07, 2020 @05:49PM (#22271987)
A lot of the infrastructure is a variable cost. The system is built/upgraded to support a peak demand, and your contribution toward that peak is variable.

And when things fail, demand can often be blamed.

And if you lump everything into the variable fee, at least you have more incentive to conserve.

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by gruez on Friday February 07, 2020 @07:52PM (#22272834)
> A lot of the infrastructure is a variable cost. The system is built/upgraded to support a peak demand, and your contribution toward that peak is variable.

That can be solved by implementing time-of-use pricing and incorporating the "peak demand" infrastructure cost into the price. You would calculate how much infrastructure is needed to provide a "baseline" load (the trough on a demand graph), and divide that among the "fixed" portion. Perhaps you also add some sort of locality adjustment so rural/urban areas pay their "fair share". The rest of the infrastructure cost would be added the variable electricity price.

>And if you lump everything into the variable fee, at least you have more incentive to conserve.

That in itself isn't a bad thing. The problem is that with solar panels/wind power, you're also shifting the cost from people who can afford to install renewables (usually richer people with money to invest) to people who can't (usually poorer).

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by angry_octet on Saturday February 08, 2020 @09:37AM (#22275893)
The problem is that electricity costs would spike to insane levels (as seen on wholesale spot markets) and consumers should have price certainty and confidence in supply, otherwise you get lots of costs in other parts of the economy. See e.g. California, where diesel gen sets are proliferating like crazy, or other markets where high CO2, high cost gas is the game theoretic optimum, eventually leading to an all-peak supply side.
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by Mvandenbergh on Saturday February 08, 2020 @05:49AM (#22275121)
In the UK a lot of the cost of distribution and transmission infrastructure is charged based on your consumption during the three highest demand half hour periods in the year (triad charge). This only applies to large users on half hourly billing, standard domestic consumers just get a distribution fee included in their bill.
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by angry_octet on Saturday February 08, 2020 @09:44AM (#22275924)
And yet that doesn't make sense if those peaks occur when there is low system wide demand, except for sizing the transformer nearby.

Really should have a reward for users that can reduce their demand when asked, or use time of day pricing.

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by Mvandenbergh on Monday February 10, 2020 @01:37PM (#22291860)
Ah, I didn't really explain that well. The three half hour periods are selected based on the system wide demand. You are then charged for your demand during those periods. So you pay a lot for using capacity when the network is strained. Also, for distribution charging (rather than transmission) there is a half hourly congestion charging mechanism. Every HH period gets put into a red, yellow, or green band and you pay more distribution charge during the red and yellow periods.
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by config_yml on Saturday February 08, 2020 @06:52AM (#22275287)
This is already the case in Switzerland
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by s1artibartfast on Saturday February 08, 2020 @07:00AM (#22275324)
It already is in California as well
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by JOnAgain on Saturday February 08, 2020 @01:06AM (#22274237)
NYC has this. It’s a lot.
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by jariel on Friday February 07, 2020 @09:04PM (#22273236)
This is not a function of regular market economics, but rather the extremely monopolizing regulatory capture that Hydro One has in Ontario where they charge huge $$$ for distribution.

Hydro One has a zillion regular folks earning >$100K (see the Sunshine list), working-class retirees earning huge incomes for life after retirement.

A regular line manager in rural Ontario without a college degree and not a huge amount of responsibility can earn $80-100K, which is 3x the national average, in an area where cost of goods and housing is very cheap.

Hydro One exists to support the historical cabal of line managers and pensioners and to maximize their income. They will charge whatever they can force you to pay - since they are a monopoly, that will be a lot.

Electricity will never be cheap because those that have the power to control distribution will 'set prices' and take massive surpluses.

Government/Quasi-Government workers (natural gas distribution is similar to Hydro) have a privilege that few in the private sector have, which is job security, which is an extremely valuable benefit never really put into the calculation. The average person has to change careers or is put out every few years, not only is this structurally costly, but it means from age 45-65 it often means massive pay cuts or worse - no income.

Energy transmission is a big roadblock to the entire energy equation, it'd be amazing if somehow we could get around this. Imagine if we had high-efficiency hydrogen generators, and homes (or neighbourhoods) simply had to maintain them, abnegating the need for complex transmission. It would change market dynamics quite radically.

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by jariel on Saturday February 08, 2020 @01:17AM (#22274266)
FYI is the HydroOne 'Sunshine List' of those earning > $100K [1] at HydroOne (Ontario)

Here is 2018 different format for all Ontario [2]

Hey, how would you like to be a 'lineman' earning $120K in rural Ontario? Or a 'line maintainer' for $150K?

Their salaries are massively inflated, and this doesn't include benefits.

There were 4,279 people earning >$100K (of which only 664 are managers) - according to Wikipedia, they have 5500 full time, about 2500 part-time - and 7500 pensioners.

This means that the majority of the staff, who are doing mostly work that doesn't require a college education, are earning >$100K. People with technical training and those who work in more difficult conditions should be compensated, but this is ridiculous.

Consider that there are 120% more pensioners than there are actual employees, many receiving gracious, lifetime benefits, and you have your answer to why the 'transmission fee' is considerably greater than the actual cost of the electricity.

If you create a startup, and can just magically allocate everyone a +$100K salary, even if market rates would be less than half that, and can magically force everyone in the country to pay through the teeth no matter what, then you have a good business.

Now imagine if there was efficiency in this system, and considerable numbers of those workers could be out installing windmills ...

Any contemplation of renewable energy that doesn't' factor in the political and operational realities of these systems is almost pointless. These systems are where probably most of the hurdles are.

[1] https://www.sunshineliststats.com/Employer/9/2015/?n=hydroon...

[2] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-sunshine-list...

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by angry_octet on Saturday February 08, 2020 @09:57AM (#22276006)
Same for Hydro-Québec but power is cheap. Would be much cheaper if you took some of the fat out, but at least the management doesn't get mega corp salaries. Too cheap really -- dynamic dispatch power used for base load, no incentive for other renewables, could sell more of it to NY.
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by jariel on Saturday February 08, 2020 @10:08AM (#22276077)
Quebec has a ton of cheap Hydro.

But it's also subsidised $500M by the QC government and the rest of Canada.

If Quebec elected to provide direct subsidies to citizens, then that would have to be paid for by QC gov. and nobody else.

But what they do is sneaky - they merely give Hydro Quebec $500M directly every year to 'invest in energy' - which they do, but they also operate magically at a $500M loss. But because 'energy investments' are part of equalisation payments - the other provinces have to help pay for this subsidy.

FYI I'm not perfectly sure of the $500M figure, I think it's more.

Also, it's not 'management' necessarily where the pay problem is at Hydro One. I think the CEO was making $1M a year, and that's not a lot. It's the thousands of linemen making >$100K and the massive pension costs.

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by angry_octet on Sunday February 09, 2020 @01:04PM (#22283374)
Provincial equalisation is too big a can of worms to open in this thread!

But HQ is a pillar of working class socialism, much like the auto industry or national airlines used to be in the age of tariffs and extreme regulation, but it has the benefit of monopoly power based on geography and infrastructure sunk costs.

HQ does a lot right, and they are starting to innovate with demand pricing, digitalnload control etc. Might be the comfort factor of no retail competition will allow them to do things others can't. A number of ultra remote communities where there are micro grids, and trying to move off diesel.

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by gliese1337 on Friday February 07, 2020 @06:17PM (#22272230)
Which then makes it more economical to produce your own electricity so more systems get installed, until the power grid just shuts down entirely and everyone is self sufficient....
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by probablypower on Saturday February 08, 2020 @07:00AM (#22275321)
That sounds ideal, but it fails for a few reasons:

1. When upper middle class people go off grid, it drives up electricity prices for poor people (fewer people paying for the infrasturcture), making them poorer. Adelaide, Australia is a good anecdote for this.

2. People are addicted to near 100% reliable electricity supply. It is far cheaper to achieve this on a regional scale than on a household scale millions of times.

3. The power grid still needs to service all industry and commercial end-users.

4. Individual self-sufficiency is not necessary if we are already sufficient on a regional scale. It only makes sense to do so if your grid electricity is too expensive or unreliable. Self-sufficiency in and of itself is selfish (I got mine!)

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by kelnos on Friday February 07, 2020 @06:21PM (#22272256)
If we're talking solely about solar, it's not that simple, since on-the-grid residential solar systems only generate power during the day (and not even always the entire day), and then pull power from the grid at night. For full self-sufficiency, you'd need to install battery systems in every house, and ensure that you have enough panels to pull in enough power during daylight hours to charge the batteries enough to cover all the no-sun hours.
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by xyzzyz on Friday February 07, 2020 @07:41PM (#22272774)
And for non-Californians, you also need to do something about the problem of not having enough sun power at all during winter, while having greatly increased power needs. Right now, you can work around this problem relatively easily by installing a propane or fuel oil tank, and making up winter shortage of sun with fossils, but as I understand it, the long term plan for society is to get off the fossils altogether.
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by Retric on Friday February 07, 2020 @08:59PM (#22273204)
Solar hot water heaters are currently the solution to that problem. They end up reducing a homes winter energy needs dramatically without the need for fossil fuels at very low costs. Longer term I’d panels keep getting cheaper and more efficient having a significant excess for most of the year is just going to become the norm.
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by greglindahl on Saturday February 08, 2020 @01:22AM (#22274286)
California is a big state with a lot of different terrain, including parts at high altitude that get cold in the winter.
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by grecy on Saturday February 08, 2020 @12:09AM (#22274052)
> electricity rates would skyrocket

Which is perfectly fine, because you're using less.

It's a fantastic feedback loop until you're not using any at all!

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by Broken_Hippo on Saturday February 08, 2020 @08:16AM (#22275555)
Sure. That's great if you can use less. Hopefully you aren't just above the poverty line in a drafty rental with and old electric force-air heating system, a 20+-year-old electric water heater, window air conditioners, and an old electric stove that was provided with the rental.

The bits that folks have actual control over are small and are often taking up less and less electricity: For example, light bulbs. New bulbs mean it doesn't always make a noticable difference when you turn lights off. You can probably use the television and computers less, but this isn't likely. You can possibly turn down the heat,but only to an extent and even less so if you have an infant in the house or if someone is elderly or otherwise sick. You can't use less refrigeration.

Even for folks that can afford it, there are actual limits to how much you can save on electricity. If you go low enough, you wind up paying a minimum monthly fee and few will stop using it altogether.

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by Mirioron on Saturday February 08, 2020 @02:33AM (#22274513)
That's great until there's cloudy weather (and/or a snowstorm) for an extended period of time. Suddenly, everyone has a much larger bill for that month. Also, what about all the people living in apartments?
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by acidburnNSA on Saturday February 08, 2020 @01:21PM (#22277389)
You're getting downvoted but you're right. Getting cheap energy when the sun is shining or wind is blowing is great, but we can't ignore the value of reliability, which skyrockets when it's in short supply.

This is why all NREL and OECD studies into deep decarbonization with intermittent resources show grid integration costs skyrocketing above 50-80% variable penetration in electricity markets.

E.g.: https://www.oecd-nea.org/ndd/pubs/2019/7299-system-costs.pdf

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by philipkglass on Saturday February 08, 2020 @03:00PM (#22277992)
Whole-system costs should be modeled. Better modelers than these should do the job.

Look at their Table 2 of cost assumptions. They show overnight costs for onshore wind farms at $2000/kW, 30% capacity factor and nuclear at $4700/kW overnight, 100% capacity factor. If those numbers were valid for the US, we'd already have a nuclear renaissance here and wind would have remained a small niche source. Texas and Oklahoma didn't build all those wind farms because of pressure from Greenpeace.

New wind gets a Federal production tax credit, of course. Nuclear also qualifies for a smaller production tax credit. I think that the nuclear PTC and wind PTC should have been equal all along, but I don't actually think that would have changed much about the growth curves in the US. The main problem with new nuclear projects is that they are badly estimated and take a very long time to build, so they don't even reach the part where they can collect those tax credits.

Nuclear needs more frequent builds if it's ever going to get costs and project estimation uncertainty back down to reasonable levels. The US doesn't have a political system that can really commit to a plan longer than 8 years. We couldn't commit to an American Messmer Plan even if a really pro-nuclear President and Congress were in office this year. It looks to me like small modular reactors, executed well, are the last good path forward for nuclear reactors. I'd like to see some built soon. I've been reading proposals for them my whole adult life.

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by thrower123 on Friday February 07, 2020 @05:18PM (#22271703)
They also usually try to find a way to weasel out of the payments that were promised to be paid for the excess electricity generated by residential solar, so that the return on investment is much worse than projected when they are installed.
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by jillesvangurp on Saturday February 08, 2020 @02:16AM (#22274465)
Grid prices going up leads to more clean energy solutions being installed, not less. It's not a problem for consumers but for monopolistic grid providers relying on obsolete and hopelessly noncompetitive means of generating energy. I.e. Nuclear, coal, and gas (in order of $/kwh). California has no excuse for power outages or water shortages as it plenty of untapped clean energy (sun, wind) to power the state and desalinate all the water it could ever need. All that takes is investing a few percent of the revenue of any their resident trillion $ mega corporations. Grid and water prices are high only because the local government there is a mess. It's the same reason it has a homeless problem & widespread poverty, the roads are bad, etc. These are governance issues, not technical problems.

The grid needs to be able to adapt to being needed much more sporadically. The only places where this is a problem is where the grid is a for profit monopoly relying on the ability to dictate prices. Most of the US used to be like that which is why they are running so many costly and out of date coal and nuclear plants. Lots of these are going bankrupt lately because of decades of just sitting on their hands while increasing prices and lobbying to prevent people from even being allowed to install solar on their roofs (e.g. Arizona until not so long ago) or refusing to buy excess capacity has failed to prevent the inevitable. Operating a coal plant in Arizona is like selling ice cream on the North Pole. I.e. not a great business plan. 2 out of the 5 remaining ones have scheduled closing dates in the very near future. I doubt the remaining 3 will survive the decade and it's in any case only a few percent of the total grid capacity.

Now that the proverbial shit has hit the fan in terms of people figuring out they can spend 5-10K dollars on upgrading their house and still get a return on investment in grid savings, grid providers are getting a reality check. All this means is that they are forced to adapt and compete on price. In most places that means investing in wind and other clean solutions with a very low variable cost. Anything that requires you to spend money on tons of fuel even when there is no demand just because spinning up and down capacity takes time is a problem because it means you are burning money for energy that you can't sell.

The key technical challenge here is to find a way to monetize the vast overcapacity we will inevitably end up with. If the grid is the only place you can sell excess energy and demand for grid is going down and you are investing in solutions that generate more energy than you need most/all of the time, finding a way to soak up that energy in a way that can generate revenue is the key thing to do.

Here's some cool stuff you can do guilt free with cheap clean energy:

- desalinate water (again, California: the pacific has plenty of H2O) or condense it from air (by chilling it) - generate hydrogen or other fuels from air, water, etc. - turn biomass into coal (yep, that's a thing). - charge batteries, pump up water, power industry, transport, etc. Whatever amount of twh. capacity we need. - exporting it to places that still have a shortage. - run the AC 24x7 at ridiculously low temperatures or heat your place at a ridiculously high temperature.

We are about to enter an era of vast of excess energy production capacity. That's not a problem but an opportunity. People are talking about covering 100% of our current needs when they need to be thinking in terms of 1000% our current needs. The market for clean energy is magnitudes our current consumption. There is no upper limit.

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by angry_octet on Saturday February 08, 2020 @09:50AM (#22275962)
It doesn't make sense to have all those excess using systems at the consumer level though. Suburb level batteries/hydrogen/desal/etc makes much more economic and safety sense, but utilities are unwilling to try that, and regulation is extreme.
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by dhdjsbsb on Friday February 07, 2020 @11:51PM (#22273963)
Californians were conserving because the state government told them to everywhere, higher rates were their reward for listening. All so the state could have an easier time dealing out water to big business. The state is basically a bunch of rich interests surfing on a wave of gullibility.