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Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by jariel on Friday February 07, 2020 @09:04PM (#22273236)
This is not a function of regular market economics, but rather the extremely monopolizing regulatory capture that Hydro One has in Ontario where they charge huge $$$ for distribution.

Hydro One has a zillion regular folks earning >$100K (see the Sunshine list), working-class retirees earning huge incomes for life after retirement.

A regular line manager in rural Ontario without a college degree and not a huge amount of responsibility can earn $80-100K, which is 3x the national average, in an area where cost of goods and housing is very cheap.

Hydro One exists to support the historical cabal of line managers and pensioners and to maximize their income. They will charge whatever they can force you to pay - since they are a monopoly, that will be a lot.

Electricity will never be cheap because those that have the power to control distribution will 'set prices' and take massive surpluses.

Government/Quasi-Government workers (natural gas distribution is similar to Hydro) have a privilege that few in the private sector have, which is job security, which is an extremely valuable benefit never really put into the calculation. The average person has to change careers or is put out every few years, not only is this structurally costly, but it means from age 45-65 it often means massive pay cuts or worse - no income.

Energy transmission is a big roadblock to the entire energy equation, it'd be amazing if somehow we could get around this. Imagine if we had high-efficiency hydrogen generators, and homes (or neighbourhoods) simply had to maintain them, abnegating the need for complex transmission. It would change market dynamics quite radically.

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by jariel on Saturday February 08, 2020 @01:17AM (#22274266)
FYI is the HydroOne 'Sunshine List' of those earning > $100K [1] at HydroOne (Ontario)

Here is 2018 different format for all Ontario [2]

Hey, how would you like to be a 'lineman' earning $120K in rural Ontario? Or a 'line maintainer' for $150K?

Their salaries are massively inflated, and this doesn't include benefits.

There were 4,279 people earning >$100K (of which only 664 are managers) - according to Wikipedia, they have 5500 full time, about 2500 part-time - and 7500 pensioners.

This means that the majority of the staff, who are doing mostly work that doesn't require a college education, are earning >$100K. People with technical training and those who work in more difficult conditions should be compensated, but this is ridiculous.

Consider that there are 120% more pensioners than there are actual employees, many receiving gracious, lifetime benefits, and you have your answer to why the 'transmission fee' is considerably greater than the actual cost of the electricity.

If you create a startup, and can just magically allocate everyone a +$100K salary, even if market rates would be less than half that, and can magically force everyone in the country to pay through the teeth no matter what, then you have a good business.

Now imagine if there was efficiency in this system, and considerable numbers of those workers could be out installing windmills ...

Any contemplation of renewable energy that doesn't' factor in the political and operational realities of these systems is almost pointless. These systems are where probably most of the hurdles are.

[1] https://www.sunshineliststats.com/Employer/9/2015/?n=hydroon...

[2] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-sunshine-list...

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by angry_octet on Saturday February 08, 2020 @09:57AM (#22276006)
Same for Hydro-Québec but power is cheap. Would be much cheaper if you took some of the fat out, but at least the management doesn't get mega corp salaries. Too cheap really -- dynamic dispatch power used for base load, no incentive for other renewables, could sell more of it to NY.
Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by jariel on Saturday February 08, 2020 @10:08AM (#22276077)
Quebec has a ton of cheap Hydro.

But it's also subsidised $500M by the QC government and the rest of Canada.

If Quebec elected to provide direct subsidies to citizens, then that would have to be paid for by QC gov. and nobody else.

But what they do is sneaky - they merely give Hydro Quebec $500M directly every year to 'invest in energy' - which they do, but they also operate magically at a $500M loss. But because 'energy investments' are part of equalisation payments - the other provinces have to help pay for this subsidy.

FYI I'm not perfectly sure of the $500M figure, I think it's more.

Also, it's not 'management' necessarily where the pay problem is at Hydro One. I think the CEO was making $1M a year, and that's not a lot. It's the thousands of linemen making >$100K and the massive pension costs.

Re:What if half of Switzerland's rooftops produced electricity? by angry_octet on Sunday February 09, 2020 @01:04PM (#22283374)
Provincial equalisation is too big a can of worms to open in this thread!

But HQ is a pillar of working class socialism, much like the auto industry or national airlines used to be in the age of tariffs and extreme regulation, but it has the benefit of monopoly power based on geography and infrastructure sunk costs.

HQ does a lot right, and they are starting to innovate with demand pricing, digitalnload control etc. Might be the comfort factor of no retail competition will allow them to do things others can't. A number of ultra remote communities where there are micro grids, and trying to move off diesel.