News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by agumonkey on Sunday February 02, 2020 @12:19PM (#22217983)
I found it shocking to realize that thousand years old realizations are still worth more than the vast majority of ideas invented since (regarding human existence that is).

Gives a slight taint to the meaning of the word 'progress'.

Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by taberiand on Sunday February 02, 2020 @01:31PM (#22218449)
That's the thing about philosophy - it doesn't take any special tools or rely on modern technology to study, just intellect. People today aren't any more or less sophisticated than the people of thousands of years ago, and them no more than the people thousands of years before them. Philosophy transcends time and space, and the golden age of Greek and Roman philosophy is full of extremely insightful and applicable knowledge to our modern lives.
Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by FabHK on Sunday February 02, 2020 @09:09PM (#22220880)
> People today aren't any more or less sophisticated than the people of thousands of years ago, and them no more than the people thousands of years before them.

Well, yes and no. We certainly know a lot more than people knew back then. We know vastly more about the cosmos, we know about atoms, we know about evolution, we know much about the brain.

We also face very different challenges than people millennia ago - we have weapons of mass destruction, more obesity than famine (in developed countries), social media, and so on.

Thus, I'd say only a small part of philosophy is still applicable and valuable today. (For example, Seneca was a Stoic, and Stoicism had much to say about physics and logic, which is pretty obsolete now, I'd say.)

There's a potential fallacy there, like thinking that old music was better, when what we still hear today is just the very best of old music.

Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by dsego on Monday February 03, 2020 @06:39AM (#22223315)
Funny how you mention the atoms, since the idea of atoms goes back to the ancient greeks, they coined the term. Obviously they had no way to prove it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom#History_of_atomic_theory
Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by FabHK on Monday February 03, 2020 @08:56AM (#22224111)
That's why I mentioned it - I cannot see in Democritus' theory anything but idle speculation.
Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by mntmoss on Monday February 03, 2020 @08:01AM (#22223733)
Knowing more simply means that there is more philosophy to be done. Every scientific breakthrough comes with a renewed discussion of its best purpose in society.
Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by sifar on Monday February 03, 2020 @03:43AM (#22222490)
How does knowing more about the physical world help me understand myself better ?

People more than two millennia later still find what he said relevant. What is it that we have produced in the last century would meet that test ? How much of that will be due to our increased knowledge and technology ?

Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by Vaskivo on Monday February 03, 2020 @06:52AM (#22223384)
Knowing genetics makes you understand why and how you are similar to your parents.

Knowing that physical and psychological state are linked, and that they affect each other.

We have ways of introspecting one's mind and body and understand the the "whys" of being an individual and also Human.

Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by heavenlyblue on Saturday February 08, 2020 @04:46AM (#22274952)
Except genetics is too low level to describe anything but the most basic features.

On that matter - my dad and my grandpa were alcoholics; and thus I have the same vice if I don’t pay attention to my motivations in life.

However knowing genetics didn’t help me understand that :)

Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by stallmanite on Sunday February 02, 2020 @02:31PM (#22218829)
So philosophy is similar to software as a field in that you don’t need a bunch of equipment to get going? Maybe it’s trivial but I had never considered that fact or it’s implications before.
Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by refset on Sunday February 02, 2020 @02:41PM (#22218911)
My favourite computer-related quote: "programming is applied philosophy" (origin unknown, sorry!)
Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by therein on Sunday February 02, 2020 @03:31PM (#22219230)
I always thought, and probably not for the most solid reasons:

Math is applied philosophy and theory of knowledge.

Physics is Math applied on reality.

Chemistry is applied Physics.

Biology is applied Chemistry.

Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by bigbonch on Sunday February 02, 2020 @05:17PM (#22219849)
I would ammend the last two points and say Chemistry is Physics applied to physical primitives and Biology is Chemistry applied to organic phenomena or something like that.
Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by rxhernandez on Sunday February 02, 2020 @08:16PM (#22220674)
It could be argued that physics has nothing at all to do with math; merely, that it is a convenient and powerful tool for humans to make sense of it.

I've seen Susskind convincingly (albeit shallowly) argue that more "primitive" animals understand physics and I would be surprised if it was easy to argue that animals understand mathematics without circular logic or quick and loose definitions of what math is.

Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by thunderbong on Sunday February 02, 2020 @04:04PM (#22219410)
Agree. I had also thought of the sciences in that manner.
Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by drworm on Sunday February 02, 2020 @05:19PM (#22219859)
Which brings to mind this classic XKCD: https://xkcd.com/435/
Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by thunderbong on Sunday February 02, 2020 @04:11PM (#22219449)
I'm not so sure.

Of course, I have asked many philosophical questions of myself, when understanding software. This, I've noticed, especially happens when you're crossing layers. For example, between hardware / assembly, assembly / C, C / OOP.

However, considering that we have not really come up with a language with which we can communicate with computers seamlessly, I have my doubts. Because, unless we have a language, we can't really philosophize.

This could be a problem due to the interfaces we have though. Or probably, because our interfaces with computers seem to be getting broader and richer with each generation of hardware, we haven't really been able to freeze on the language through which we communicate.

Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by simonh on Sunday February 02, 2020 @05:23PM (#22219878)
“What is Magic but applied philosophy?” I’m sure I’ve seen that as a quote, but I can’t find where from. Possibly Dune?
Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by ellius on Sunday February 02, 2020 @05:06PM (#22219782)
Taleb makes the argument this should actually be obvious. Old ideas have survived over time, which suggests they are good enough to be passed down from generation to generation. New ideas are a complete crapshoot, and you have to do a lot more work to figure out if they're worth a damn.
Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by jborichevskiy on Sunday February 02, 2020 @06:23PM (#22220175)
The Lindy effect Wikipedia article has further reading on this as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect

Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by lubonay on Monday February 03, 2020 @01:46PM (#22227467)
I guess that's why they call it "surviving the test of time".
Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by dwrodri on Sunday February 02, 2020 @01:30PM (#22218441)
The progress we have made towards changing the conditions humans live in has evolved immensely, but the progress we have made towards a different human condition from our ancestors is almost nonexistent.
Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by agumonkey on Sunday February 02, 2020 @01:56PM (#22218599)
yes agreed, materially we're off the pit

I'd argue though, that a good life is a balance between human condition and material needs. A kind of optimized frugality.

Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by leftyted on Sunday February 02, 2020 @01:35PM (#22218477)
Progress lies in the fact that everyone has access to these ideas. It isn't surprising that the best ideas are old. Any idea that has survived for thousands of years has to be good.
Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by IggleSniggle on Sunday February 02, 2020 @02:08PM (#22218683)
Or at least it has survivability, which is often but not always a proxy for a "good idea." Ideas that are very good but also unpleasant or exceedingly complex are unlikely to survive. Perhaps for some definitions of good, these ideas are not good.
Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by agumonkey on Sunday February 02, 2020 @01:56PM (#22218595)
bruh, I'm not even sure that's remotely true.

I'd bet my left pinky that people knew this earlier in life than us because our society shields us from our true selves.

Too many distractions to the point it's harmful.

Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by jvanderbot on Sunday February 02, 2020 @03:50PM (#22219319)
My favorite book on this exact sentiment (with healthy doses of neuroscience) is Happiness Hypothesis. Recommended!
Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by apatters on Sunday February 02, 2020 @10:55PM (#22221307)
I disagree, if someone draws motivation and satisfaction from Epictetus' quote then that's great and I don't want to cast any shade on it. But I think it's very dated and we have better ideas today.

Just to put forward a few recent criticisms:

#1.

This quote is a very literal example of a sort of "man up" style of prescriptive thinking which tells you to solve your behavioral problems by Being More Manly. For the vast majority of people, being told to Be A Man doesn't work to alter behavior in the long run, it discourages self esteem and offers no practical guidance. If studying mammalian behavior is any guide, this sort of advice is likely a product of a man's instinctual dominance drive. Males love to give advice because when it sounds good it helps them accrue status and cement their position in the dominance hierarchy, which increases their mating options.

We have numerous moderns alternative to Be A Man if you want to change your behaviors, the best ones are based on the past 50 years of research into how the brain works. They typically focus on understanding emotional, unconscious, or instinctual behavior and working out how to process these things more productively. Examples include cognitive behavioral therapy (and a host of similar emerging therapies), or BJ Foggs' Tiny Habits framework (which was recently shared on HN).

#2.

For a criticism of a totally different tack, Epictetus and Seneca are both operating within a rigid framework that privileges values such as efficiency, self-improvement, and accomplishment. Presumably, they see these things as the best path to happiness.

Why are these values privileged? What authority has established that any of them, including personal happiness, are important and meaningful to pursue? In the past century we've been exposed to multiple strains of existentialist, postmodernist, and nihilist thought which all emerge from the same revelation--existence fundamentally has no meaning, all value systems are human constructs, and the universe is much larger than our day to day struggles.

All our traditional values are now beset by refutations. We believed in God, but centuries of scientific progress have dispelled the evidence supporting His existence. We believed in civilization, but our largest societies went on to slaughter millions. We thought the universe revolved around us, but learned that we're ants crawling on the face of a pale blue dot, of no consequence in the cosmos to any but our own self-centered perspective.

This might all sound pretty dark, but the good news is that nothing you do is really important. The universe will remain unperturbed no matter what actions you take (or don't)! So if you're stressing about how well you live, remember that you're merely chasing fictions in a framework that someone else cooked up.

This is a modern day revelation that would never have been achieved without modern science and rationalism, and is still developing. There are as many views on how to process existence's meaninglessness as there are philosophers. To name a few: Nietschze's will to power, Camus' absurdism, Sartre's pursuit of personal freedom. Alternatively it's fine to spend your afternoon playing Xbox, no matter what your parents say.

#3,4,5++

I'm sure there are more!

Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by Hercuros on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @05:03AM (#22233966)
> This might all sound pretty dark, but the good news is that nothing you do is really important. The universe will remain unperturbed no matter what actions you take (or don't)! So if you're stressing about how well you live, remember that you're merely chasing fictions in a framework that someone else cooked up.

I'm not really convinced by this type of reasoning. Things do matter if people care very deeply about them. If someone murdered someone close to you (to take an extreme example), would you still say that that is fine, because in the grand scheme nothing matters? You might say that you're an irrational human being, and that's why you care. But why should we take a definition of "meaningful" that is so disjoint for everyday human experience?

What would a hypothetical world look like in which life does have meaning, according to your definition? If no such world is even imaginable, then it isn't even clear what we are talking about.

Furthermore, I think some people use the supposed "meaninglessness" of life to justify passivity. If the universe is truly meaningless, then doing nothing is as meaningful as doing something traditionally considered meaningful.

Yet, people often base their behavior on their current emotional state. That is not the behavior of someone who believes in the complete meaninglessness of everything. Clearly, that person believes that his emotions matter and are a good guide to choose which actions to take. Playing Xbox on the couch or ruminating about the meaninglessness of life being good examples of this. Such actions are choices that are ultimately derived from value judgments.

Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by apatters on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @10:36AM (#22236716)
The idea behind the existential "crisis of meaning" is not that nothing means anything to anyone. It is that meaning is a psychological construct, and should not be represented as anything more.

If having a work ethic gets you through your day--OK, have one.

But you don't have a "better way of thinking" than someone who's lazy in any meaningful way. Nor are you more intrinsically valuable than them, outside of a very local context in time, space and culture.

Sure if I lose a loved one it's going to affect me deeply and I will grieve, but as a matter of likely fact, I will someday move on (as any good psychologist would advise). The meaning of death and its impact are not universal, merely local.

In my opinion the essential lessons are two. One is very practical. It is about humility and perspective.

The second is more esoteric. It is about freedom. The existential crisis sets you free. But like the lifelong convict who has just been released by his jailor, it remains up to you to be free.

Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by Hercuros on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @02:01PM (#22239579)
That's a fair point. I do think that we essentially live in a world that is built up largely out of psychological/social constructs and mental abstractions. In a lot of ways, a psychological or social construct can be a lot more "real" than the "raw" universe (which I don't think can be perceived directly and is more of an abstraction). Therefore, I think it's often more useful to look at the world as it is experienced by people, rather than how it "really is".
Re:Seneca on The Shortness of Time (2017) by lubonay on Monday February 03, 2020 @01:51PM (#22227527)
>The universe will remain unperturbed no matter what actions you take (or don't)!

This is an interesting idea - theoretically, there should be a possible action that "perturbs" the universe. It's a matter of scale and efficiency, so this sounds like an engineering problem rather than a philosophical one.