News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by tehbeard on Friday January 24, 2020 @10:08AM (#22138860)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graveyard_orbit puts the difference in delta V requirements for a geo-sync orbit at ~1500m/s to de-orbit vs 11m/s to get boost up to graveyard orbit.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by leni536 on Friday January 24, 2020 @12:24PM (#22140362)
Interestingly it takes slightly less delta v to send the satelite out of Earth's gravity well from a geo-sync orbit than to deorbit it.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by greglindahl on Friday January 24, 2020 @02:09PM (#22141415)
Yes, direct-to-GEO missions sometimes dispose of the upper rocket stage in solar orbit for this reason.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by dls2016 on Friday January 24, 2020 @11:41AM (#22139835)
What's the physical intuition here? Is it that you want the de-orbit to hit the atmosphere at a shallow angle instead of plunging to earth?
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by penagwin on Friday January 24, 2020 @12:18PM (#22140298)
Geostationary orbit is REALLY far away from earth (and also the atmosphere) compared to other orbits, but it's very special and so we want to keep as little junk in it as possible. Other types of orbits are so low, that they have to keep maintaining their orbit or they'll decay into the atmosphere.

So we're in a stable orbit with a high periapsis (closest part of our orbit to earth). To de-orbit we need to lower the periapsis so that it touches the atmosphere, and on each pass the satellite will slow down, further lowering the apoapsis and periapsis. The problem is that to do this we have to burn all that horizontal velocity that's keeping us in orbit in the first place, which is a crapload.

An alternative is to instead change the orbit so it's no longer in geostationary orbit and potentially interfering with live satellites, so instead they just push the satellite further out into the "graveyard orbit".

There's 100x difference in the needed energy for the two methods, and I'm sure you can see why most would opt for the graveyard orbit.

EDIT: To add, it's actually rather difficult to "plunge into earth". To do this you need to burn all of your horizontal velocity (I think that's around 3.07 km/s in geostationary orbit?). Reaching the sun is actually really difficult as well for the same reason, you have to lose all of your horizontal velocity, and earth has a ton.

Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by mark-r on Friday January 24, 2020 @02:09PM (#22141410)
How much of a danger is debris from an exploded satellite? Each fragment is going to be independent and have its own orbit. Any orbit higher or lower than the geostationary belt won't be a problem. Any orbit equal to the original satellite's won't be a problem either. Only those pieces maintaining the same altitude but a different direction will ever intersect the belt, and that will be a rare occurrence.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by Floegipoky on Friday January 24, 2020 @03:41PM (#22142228)
You're correct that each fragment will have its own independent orbit, based on the delta-v that it gained from the explosion. But they won't circularize; each of those new orbits will intersect the original orbit at the point where it exploded. The orbital periods of the fragments will also not match the original, meaning that the relative intersection will shift along the original orbit every time. So an explosion in geostationary orbit would be a Really Big Deal and could potentially threaten the whole geostationary fleet.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by Aperocky on Friday January 24, 2020 @02:27PM (#22141595)
Orbit can be both higher and lower, actually, any deltaV except purely in the axis of movement will result in exactly that.

Yes. you can accelerate away from the Earth and have a lower periapsis (conversely, you can accelerate towards the Earth and have a higher apoapsis). The only way you can maintain the same periapsis is by accelerating in the same direction you're going. Highly impossible in an explosion.

Also note, it is impossible to raise periapsis in a single event (or single time frame), except by leaving Earth orbit entirely (i.e. eject to planetary space)

Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by Aperocky on Friday January 24, 2020 @01:45PM (#22141197)
Wernher von Kerman approves this message.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by penagwin on Friday January 24, 2020 @04:57PM (#22142865)
My understanding of orbital mechanics is mostly because of KSP (and Scott Manley).

I HIGHLY recommend both of them.

Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by dvtrn on Friday January 24, 2020 @02:40PM (#22141711)
Jeb seems concerned
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by willis936 on Friday January 24, 2020 @12:22PM (#22140338)
Geosynchronous orbit is a Very high altitude. It’s 6% of the distance to the moon. Inverse square law tells us the surface area that we have to worry about for debris is massive compared to lower altitude orbits. Additionally, it takes a lot of fuel to be able to de orbit high altitude satellites. As orbital altitude increases, de orbit costs start getting out of hand and there is less benefit to deorbiting. So while lower altitude, crowded orbits are required to de orbit to avoid catastrophic cascades from collisions, higher altitude orbits are allowed to simply get out of the way.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by ska on Friday January 24, 2020 @06:35PM (#22143401)

   Additionally, it takes a lot of fuel to be able to de orbit high altitude satellites.
I don't think this is so much an a 'additionally', as a 'mostly'.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by willis936 on Friday January 24, 2020 @08:30PM (#22144034)
Forest for the trees. The point is there is a crossover point in terms of cost/utility. That one word doesn’t seriously help in making the point.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by s_tec on Friday January 24, 2020 @12:22PM (#22140341)
Sattelites are always falling to the ground, but they are also going sideways really fast. Imagine tossing a pebble off of a bridge onto a boat - if the sideways velocity is too high, the pebble will miss the boat and land in the water instead. Sattelites are like that. They are going sideways so fast that they miss the Earth entirely as they fall to the ground. If you want a sattelite to come back to earth, you need to get rid of that sideways velocity, which takes fuel.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by pdonis on Friday January 24, 2020 @12:00PM (#22140079)
> Is it that you want the de-orbit to hit the atmosphere at a shallow angle instead of plunging to earth?

De-orbiting to hit the atmosphere at a shallow angle would actually take slightly less delta-v than de-orbiting to a straight plunge to Earth. But both are much larger than the delta-v required to get to a graveyard orbit.

Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by Dylan16807 on Friday January 24, 2020 @12:00PM (#22140074)
It doesn't de-orbit at all.

For physical intuition, uh, the atmosphere is a hundred times further away than the graveyard orbit.

Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by jvm_ on Friday January 24, 2020 @02:57PM (#22141863)
Earth orbit is like a funnel. If you're in geo-synchronous orbit, you're at the top edge (Earth is down by the hole). It's easier to jump off the edge of the funnel (and fall into the Sun's funnel) than it is to climb all the way back down to earth.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by fennecfoxen on Friday January 24, 2020 @03:15PM (#22142009)
The idea that there is an "edge" to the funnel is misleading. And if there were any edge, and it was at geosynchronous orbit, the Moon would have fallen off long ago.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by jvm_ on Friday January 24, 2020 @03:17PM (#22142020)
I guess the edge is more of the sweet spot where geosynchronous exists, too close or too far are both non-GEO.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by jessaustin on Friday January 24, 2020 @11:56AM (#22140027)
A small change in momentum requires less energy than a large change in momentum.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by jessaustin on Saturday January 25, 2020 @07:10PM (#22149495)
Umm, wat? Does someone seriously disagree with this?
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by hanniabu on Friday January 24, 2020 @12:56PM (#22140709)
Interesting, but then we also need to somehow fly through that when launching outer space rockets. Amazing how we can avoid the debris.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by DuskStar on Friday January 24, 2020 @01:23PM (#22141004)
The graveyard orbits are ~40,000km above the earth's surface - there's a LOT of space to avoid debris in.

The issue with space debris is with orbits in the 500-5,000km range. Lower than that and the debris will reenter quickly, higher and you start getting spread out enough to not matter as much.

Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by dreamcompiler on Friday January 24, 2020 @01:39PM (#22141143)
> The graveyard orbits are ~40,000km above the earth's surface

They're also in a ring in the plane of the equator. Easy to avoid.

Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by hanniabu on Friday January 24, 2020 @02:41PM (#22141725)
I had no idea about this. How do they get it aligned with the equator? (I'm assuming when the stuff is in operation that it's not just around the equator)
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by 0xffff2 on Friday January 24, 2020 @03:14PM (#22141996)
Geostationary satellites are in fact in a ring around the equator. No other orbit would keep them stationary in the sky.

Geosynchronous orbits are orbits at the same altitude, but not necessarily aligned with the equator. Most of what I know about orbital mechanics I learned from Kerbal Space Program, but given that it's very expensive to change orbital inclination, I would be shocked if geosynchronous satellites were returned to a flat inclination before being disposed of.

Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by outworlder on Friday January 24, 2020 @09:15PM (#22144197)
KSP is a very good approximation for most types of orbits we care about, including this case. Anything not involving N-body, like Lagrange points.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by dreamcompiler on Friday January 24, 2020 @08:30PM (#22144039)
Geostationary satellites are launched from near the equator and then accelerated into a true eastward orbit when they're put into service (eastward because the earth rotates in an eastward direction and we want the satellite's orbit to synchronize with the earth's rotation). They could in principle be launched from far away from the equator e.g. Florida but that would require a ridiculous amount of fuel to get them into an equatorial orbit. Once they go out of service, their onboard thrusters fire (accelerating the craft in a mostly easterly direction -- not "up"!) which has the effect of raising their orbital height to a graveyard orbit.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by dreamcompiler on Saturday January 25, 2020 @11:47AM (#22147094)
Too late to edit the above, but I need to make a major correction: US geostationary satellites are indeed launched from Florida, followed by a fuel-expensive plane change to get them into the equatorial plane. Other countries launch them from land they own or control closer to the equator.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by pacificmint on Friday January 24, 2020 @03:07PM (#22141942)
No, geostationary satellites actually are in a plane around the equator. That’s the only way geostationary orbit works. Otherwise they’d be moving with respect to the surface.

So they already are aligned and just need to be moved to a higher orbit.

Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by fennecfoxen on Friday January 24, 2020 @03:17PM (#22142018)
Well, they start getting spread out — except when you have everything together for that one special geosynchronous orbit. That's a bit of a problem too.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by penagwin on Friday January 24, 2020 @10:50AM (#22139238)
Oh... Yeah that explains it for sure.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by zymhan on Friday January 24, 2020 @11:30AM (#22139701)
Essentially, you need a ton of fuel to take a satellite back down to earth.
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by staticautomatic on Friday January 24, 2020 @11:28AM (#22139670)
So it's more expensive to design satellites that can de-orbit?
Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by penagwin on Friday January 24, 2020 @01:48PM (#22141224)
From Geostationary Orbit yes, for other orbits it can be the opposite.

Satellites in lower positions actually have to maintain their orbit due to orbital decay. Because Geostationary orbit is so far away, there's a lot less decay.

For example SpaceX's starlink only has a lifespan of 5 years, and this is because of their low orbit.

Re:DirecTV races to decommission broken satellite before it ... by mumblemumble on Friday January 24, 2020 @11:40AM (#22139819)
It depends on where they are. Take a look at the diagram on that Wikipedia page linked above - a geosynchronous orbit is very high; 50 or so times further out than the ISS, for example. And that's about as far out as we ever put satellites, so you've only got to boost it by a little bit to get out of the way of active space traffic.