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Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by mattnewton on Thursday January 23, 2020 @04:16PM (#22132189)
IANAL, but what does not using company time mean for salaried employees? I'm never "on the clock" vs "off the clock" in my current role, I just have target dates to hit.
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by bigiain on Thursday January 23, 2020 @07:14PM (#22133935)
Where I am (Australia) an employer is not allowed to pay a salaried employee less than they'd earn working the same hours as an equivalent role paid on a per hour basis.

When I've had employers try to claim weekend/evening work was "theirs", I've sent them a link to that legislation and a pro forma invoice for all my time during employment with them for the difference between 168 hours per week at equivalent hourly rate and what they've actually paid me so far. That nicely sets the tone for further discussion.

(I only got threatened with being fired on the spot once for doing that, on which they did not follow through, and I was already interviewing elsewhere anyway...)

Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by nmfisher on Thursday January 23, 2020 @08:42PM (#22134566)
> Where I am (Australia) an employer is not allowed to pay a salaried employee less than they'd earn working the same hours as an equivalent role paid on a per hour basis.

IIRC the wording in Australian legislation is that employers can require full-time employees to work "reasonable overtime". So that doesn't sound right - at least, not as a rule across the board. Perhaps under certain awards.

Even then, it's fairly useless wording. It does nothing to resolve disagreements between employer/employee as to what's reasonable. An extra hour once a year? 10 hours every week? Big difference between the two.

Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by madeofpalk on Thursday January 23, 2020 @09:47PM (#22134926)
IIRC (usually) the "reasonable overtime" request is closely followed by a clause saying that, over the course of 4 months, you still must do an average of 38 hours/week or something to that effect.

How often it’s ‘enforced’ is, like you said, probably isn’t great

Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by nmfisher on Thursday January 23, 2020 @10:09PM (#22135057)
Australian employment law is the most bizarrely vague field I've ever come across.

"Reasonable overtime" is only one example - there's a whole host of other really basic questions that you can't get simple, definitive answers to.

For example, can I employ someone on a 12 month contract? What about 24 months? 36 months? At some point, they become a full-time/ongoing employee and get the benefits of unfair dismissal/redundancy, which means the whole "fixed-term" thing becomes meaningless. The problem is, it's never clear at what point that actually occurs.

Gut feeling is that this is because all politicians know it's an absolute minefield, so none of them is willing to touch it. Better to leave it vague enough that no-one can accuse them of favouring business or employees, because no-one really has any clue what's going on. Kick the can down the road and let FWA deal with it.

Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by daurnimator on Friday January 24, 2020 @12:06AM (#22135549)
As far as I know, after working for more than 180 days in a tax year they become an employee.
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by nmfisher on Friday January 24, 2020 @01:35AM (#22135890)
Sounds like you're referring to the "employee" versus "contractor" question, which is a whole other distinction.

I'm talking about "full-time employee for a fixed-term" versus "full-time employee on an ongoing permanent basis".

In both cases, they're employees, not 'contractors' (so you withhold PAYG, pay their superannuation, etc).

But in the first case, you don't have an obligation to continue employing them after (say) 12 months.

The second, you are obliged to do so, so you can't turn around and say "we just don't want to employ you any more" after 12 months. You need to follow the redundancy provisions or terminate them for cause.

The problem is that it's not explicit whether businesses can actually offer the first type of contract (or more specifically, that if I employ someone on an 18-month, it's not explicit that they can't claim a redundancy payout when those 18 months end).

Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by flukus on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:48PM (#22135477)
Do places actually offer fixed term contracts now? Last time I was looking at contracts I was stuck between recruiters/employers demanding an ABN and the ATO saying I wasn't eligible. The ATO were right because the work has to be performed on their equipment and on their schedule but most recruiters/employers hadn't adapted yet, so anyone without an ABN were SOL.
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by windowsworkstoo on Friday January 24, 2020 @12:11AM (#22135570)
Yes this is still common and is covered by the ATO as the Personal Services Income test - you can either work via your own company or a payroll company but basically income is treated like standard PAYG
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by jacques_chester on Thursday January 23, 2020 @10:05PM (#22135030)
It's common for contracts to have a time-in-lieu clause. I worked late so I get some time off later.
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by nmfisher on Thursday January 23, 2020 @10:11PM (#22135070)
For some, yes - but for others, no. I didn't have time-in-lieu at one of my past jobs.

Even so, as a matter of law, it's not required.

Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by zaphirplane on Friday January 24, 2020 @06:47AM (#22137271)
What does that mean. A contractor is paid more per hour than an employee. I don’t understand what a per hour project manager would be paid compared to an salaried employee, I’m pretty sure to be on an hourly rate you would be a contractor. I’m sure there are jobs that have an hourly rate like plumbing
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by MaximumYComb on Thursday January 23, 2020 @10:06PM (#22135037)
Do you have a link to that legislation? I'm salaried in Australia and I've never heard of it.
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by ogre_codes on Thursday January 23, 2020 @04:25PM (#22132286)
It would be easy enough to firewall your activities based on location. If you are in the office at your place of work, do the work you are paid to do, if you are planning on doing activities that relate to job hunting/ creating a new business, do it after you leave or while at lunch.

If the guy's last couple month's productivity goes through the floor and he has dozens of hour+ long phone calls to his lawyer's office, he might be in trouble.

Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by bcrosby95 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @04:57PM (#22132652)
Makes things trickier if you work remotely. Probably a good reason for having a personal computer and a work computer.
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by mattnewton on Thursday January 23, 2020 @05:14PM (#22132846)
Oh, absolutely they should be firewalled by device if you are a salaried employee, especially since most employees work on computers that are the property of their company. But can't my employer assert that they bought all my time when I signed up to be an exempt employee? The moonlighting laws in CA seem to give them leway to so if they are in a related area to my project, which for AmaGoopleSoft is potentially everything that can be done with software these days.
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by gamblor956 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @06:31PM (#22133528)
But can't my employer assert that they bought all my time when I signed up to be an exempt employee?

No, that would be illegal in pretty much every state, except possibly the worker-hostile US Deep South.

The moonlighting laws in CA seem to give them leway to so if they are in a related area to my project, which for AmaGoopleSoft is potentially everything that can be done with software these days.

This is backwards. CA's laws are one of the few in the country that actually let you do this type of thing. Most states let companies have extremely permissive claims to products/IP created by their workers, even off the clock. CA is one of the few states that strongly protects workers' individual creations produced off the clock. In a nutshell, unless you're an executive, material employee, or significant owner of the company, the stuff you make in your free time is yours unless it's directly within the scope of the Company's business activities. And generally, even in those situations CA law provides procedures to protect the workers' independently created IP.

Note: off the clock for these purposes roughly means that you're (a) not in the office/facility and (b) not working on a specific task or project for the company. I'm not going into all of the nuances in this comment.

Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by bigiain on Thursday January 23, 2020 @07:06PM (#22133850)
>> But can't my employer assert that they bought all my time when I signed up to be an exempt employee?

> No, that would be illegal in pretty much every state, except possibly the worker-hostile US Deep South.

A friend of mine had to put his PhD on-hold when the company he worked for was acquired by Oracle, while his lawyer and their lawyers argued over whether the "standard employment contract" he was being asked to sign prevented him from publishing his thesis as required by the university to complete his PhD... A face value reading pretty much claimed "everything you think while employed by Oracle becomes IP exclusively owned by Oracle", and his new manager, their manager, and several levels up the corporate hierarchy all stuck to that interpretation for months before granting what was desc ribed to them as an "extremely unusual one-time-only expemtion which you musty not disclose to any colleagues".

Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by gamblor956 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @07:20PM (#22133980)
Companies do plenty of things that are illegal, especially when it comes to labor law.

That being said, this story doesn't make sense unless it takes place outside of CA. Work for a PhD thesis is generally done on university grounds, giving the university the putative right to the underlying IP. A third-party employer like Oracle would have to duke it out with the university to claim ownership, no matter what their employment contracts said.

OTOH, if work for the PhD was done using Oracle facilities and equipment, then it makes perfect sense for Oracle to investigate IP ownership since many PhD thesis projects go on to become valuable commercial products.

Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by bigiain on Friday January 24, 2020 @01:07AM (#22135789)
This was complex. The acquired company was in the US, but not in CA. The university was in Australia, and yes they also claimed ownership (which had already been agreed as part of starting the PhD). It's quite likely the work on the PhD prior to the Oracle acquisition was done on the original acquired companies equipment (and probably time as well).

It was without doubt a time wasting and frustrating shitfight ensuring he was "allowed" to think about his PhD topic after being acquired by Oracle (although he had enough equity to have done quite nicely out of the deal anyway, I suspect...)

Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by ogre_codes on Friday January 24, 2020 @11:45AM (#22139895)
Yes, but that’s not the primary issue in this case. Even then you can firewall based on device... which is a good idea considering large employers don’t even have to go through courts to get access to the device they issued you.
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by thaumasiotes on Thursday January 23, 2020 @04:56PM (#22132636)
> It would be easy enough to firewall your activities based on location.

...if you work from home?

Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by Hamuko on Thursday January 23, 2020 @05:11PM (#22132805)
Switch from your work computer to your own computer. If you don't have on the clock vs. off the clock, then I think you could make the argument that you were doing work stuff and then moved to your own computer to do your own stuff.
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by lostlogin on Thursday January 23, 2020 @04:59PM (#22132666)
At work computer versus at own. Or even VPN on, versus off VPN, though that’s harder if you don’t use one.
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by codyb on Thursday January 23, 2020 @06:14PM (#22133376)
Even accounts could be a reasonable separation.

If you absolutely had to use your personal computer for a full time gig I can’t imagine how having a clean slate and user namespace wouldn’t be beneficial.

Discreet SSH keys, directories, downloads, etc.

Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by trickstra on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:06PM (#22135317)
I work from home and even when I have no startup plans I still keep two separate browser profiles, ssh keys, directories etc, exactly for the benefits you mentioned. Things like autocomplete suddenly become "smarter" if they know I'm looking for something work related.
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by jacques_chester on Thursday January 23, 2020 @10:07PM (#22135043)
I have two accounts on my home workstation to create a separation.
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by unnouinceput on Friday January 24, 2020 @09:14AM (#22138399)
10+ years freelancer. I have virtual machines for each client, and a personal one where i test my stuff. Currently ~10 machines sitting on my PC hard, plus 20+ backed up on a separate backup hdd specially made for this. And all are backed also in the cloud, on encrypted volumes, under different providers with thousands of accounts each, all managed by a password manager (I made my own pwd manager for my own needs).

This setup allows me full separation for each client plus my own stuff. Personally I think this is the best solution. Only downside is that requires a good internet connection, which in my country is a non-issue

Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by baryphonic on Thursday January 23, 2020 @04:19PM (#22132224)
It's a good question. I don't know, and if you're curious, ask an employment lawyer.

I'm even further removed from company time: not only am I salaried non-exempt, but I mostly work remotely.

My own rule (without taking into account any legal advice I don't need, since I'm not working on my own startup) is to be very strict about the resources that belong to the company, and not mix them with anything I do for fun or personal/professional growth.

Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by gamblor956 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @06:38PM (#22133594)
Non-exempt workers are generally employees paid on an hourly basis, below an annual income threshold of approximately $55k, not including certain programmers or white-collar workers, both of which have been explicitly "exempted" from the law.
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by baryphonic on Thursday January 23, 2020 @07:10PM (#22133891)
Yep, I meant salaried exempt.
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by thaumasiotes on Thursday January 23, 2020 @04:57PM (#22132646)
If you're non-exempt, then you're explicitly tracking "company time" vs "not company time".

Did you mean you are exempt?

Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by baryphonic on Thursday January 23, 2020 @07:09PM (#22133884)
Both of you are correct. I meant I am salaried exempt and remote. Apparently I was also caffeine deficient at the time I wrote that...
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by rafiki6 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @05:13PM (#22132827)
This is only true if your employment contract doesn't specify a certain number of hours a week, or if there's no standard. A simple test to see what the standard for a day is is the hours a company considers a vacation day. As much as your employer may like to think they own you, the reality is quite different, even for salaried employees who don't get paid overtime. There is a reasonableness test that can be applied.
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by jedimastert on Thursday January 23, 2020 @05:32PM (#22133008)
Also IANAL, but I would say no company resources. No company information, equipment, facilities, and nothing you didn't buy with your own money
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by filoleg on Thursday January 23, 2020 @07:04PM (#22133836)
Probably not working on it during work hours or times when people expect you to work, as well as from not within any company property. If you work on your project on weekends from the comfort of your own house or a coffee shop, that's cool. If you do it during lunchtime at work or on the company office property during weekends, that is a bit shadier, even though realistically there should be no difference. Try to make your personal project situation as clear-cut and separated as possible.
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by lilyball on Thursday January 23, 2020 @04:58PM (#22132658)
Are you working out of your employer's office? While you're in the office that's generally considered "company time", or at least company resources.

If you're working from home and don't have normal "work hours" then it's not so well-defined.

Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by alasdair_ on Thursday January 23, 2020 @05:34PM (#22133022)
>Are you working out of your employer's office? While you're in the office that's generally considered "company time", or at least company resources.

It gets trickier if you are, say, eating lunch or are there after common working hours.

Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by henryfjordan on Thursday January 23, 2020 @06:03PM (#22133272)
Ehhh, you're gonna be arguing uphill there. Maybe you can show the courts a distinction but if you're salaried, you'd be safest considering everything done in the office as "company time".
Re:Apple lawsuit tests if an employee can plan rival startup... by refurb on Thursday January 23, 2020 @05:50PM (#22133155)
Doing outside work while on company property during normal working hours is probably a pretty good rule.