While this keyboard is too small for me personally, something like a 40% or a 60% is doable since they retain the modifier keys. These keyboard sizes are great for traveling or taking somewhere with a laptop to give a "proper" keyboard experience without being overly bulky.

Keyboards with support for custom firmware (https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/) can also greatly increase the functions of normally single-use keys at the cost of a steeper learning curve.

yeah, I'm in the 61 key zone and it drops right into my bag as needed. I mostly grew up on laptop keyboards, so I don't have much use for a 104 key board. And I don't really use the function keys for anything, so I don't really need that row, I use vim bindings for my arrow keys and page up/down so don't need those keys. I find that I use a 61 key keyboard without any layering or special mapping. Though I do program a few macros here and there but no real need to use layers for my workflow.

I think a certain amount of it is just a fascination with minimalism for the sake of it and clever firmware tricks, but one argument for it is ergonomics.

Simply: fewer keys means less travel for your wrists and fingers, albeit (as someone mentioned) at the cost of a steeper learning curve in order to master the layer-switching and dual-use keys that you need to make such a small keyboard work. Germ, designer of the Gergo split-ergo keyboard that I currently use at home, has a good post on it here: https://blog.gboards.ca/2019/11/on-gergoplex-and-updates-let...

I'm currently working on the ASETNIOP layout for Ginny (A 10 key keyboard), while wildly impractical next to something like GergoPlex, it's a fun exercise in insanity.

https://www.gboards.ca/product/gergoplex

https://www.gboards.ca/product/ginni

I don't get why most keyboards available in stores have a numpad. I never use it, and it takes up valuable space on my desk. I wonder how many people actually use the numpad section of a keyboard on a daily basis.

I use it all the time for entering IP addresses, numbers in a spreadsheet, and doing quick math in a calculator.

My current keyboard doesn't have one (it shipped faster and that was more important to me at the time), and I really miss it, and I'm thinking of getting a separate 10-key. I thought it wouldn't miss it that much, but I use numbers frequently enough that it's noticeable.

I wish keyboards had removable 10-keys so I could save space on my desk until I need it. Likewise for page-up (etc) and arrow keys.

"I wish keyboards had removable 10-keys so I could save space on my desk until I need it."

The Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Wireless comes with a separate number pad, which you can place wherever you like.

> I wish keyboards had removable 10-keys so I could save space on my desk until I need it.

There are separate numpads, i.e. USB keyboards that are only the numpad. My brothers are civil engineers, and they use these when working with AutoCAD on a notebook since AutoCAD apparently puts a lot of stuff on numpad keys.

I have only tried a few of those so far, but I have had a hard time finding one that is heavy enough to not slide around. I also like it to be a similar key press feel to my regular keyboard. So I do wish they would sell them to match keyboards.

I require a numpad - any time I need to enter more than a few numbers, the speed difference is unbelievable.

I’d say most analytics focused people will need to do something like this at some point - that, and people who are forced to interact with spreadsheets occasionally.

I just set up my tilde key to change the right half of my keyboard to a numpad when held down, so I'm not missing anything. Seems like a good tradeoff.

I'm waiting for a keyboard with eink key caps because I struggle to remember where all of these invisible keys are.

Ah, reminds of the Optimus Maximus: https://vimeo.com/4294567

I also remember owning a Samsung Alias 2, which had e-ink keys so you could use it in either vertical or horizontal orientation.

The problem with all the existing products is they seem to be crowdfunding scams or they are essentially some clear plastic domes over a large touchscreen eink panel. I'm guessing that no one is able to source the 1x1cm eink screens that would be needed for a mechanical version.

Small screens on buttons are somewhat readily available: https://www.mikroe.com/oled-switch-click

They are $100 each though.

And you still couldn't cram that inside a key cap. I'm starting to think the only way this could possibly be built with current tech is a regular keyboard with white keycaps and a projector. But this idea is getting more and more insane and the macbook touchbar is sounding like a better idea.

Wow, that is steeeep.

Cooler master has a keyboard which they call a hybrid ten key less where they combines the numpad with the arrow and home buttons. There are probably other brands with a similar layout, seems like a good compromise.

I use a ten key less keyboard so I can put the mouse closer to it.

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/cdn.coolermaster.com/asse...

https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/peripheral/keyboards/ma...

That's interesting, how do you pick which one you want to use?

I had it set up so that pressing caps down enables num lock, releasing turns off numlock. This is great unit you need to use Remote Desktop, since the autohotkey script doesn't work remotely. So now I bought a new keyboard with a numpad.

Ah, right. I can recommend a QMK-based keyboard, even just the scriptability is worth it.

Numlock.

That sounds like a good compromise.

I use it all the time to enter numbers (more than a few -- it becomes very cumbersome without one for more than a few.)

Also I use it for software like Blender for camera controls. (Though this is probably more of a niche use case...)

I was about to comment this. I just recently got a keyboard with full numpad on my computer that I use Blender on and it makes a world of difference. Usually I just use it to switch from perspective to orthographic and to view front.

I like the tenkeyless format for the same reasons outlined above, and Blender's view keys were the main thing I missed.

Pie menus addon is a game changer for that though. Hold Q, push your mouse toward the desired view direction, and let go. It's honestly even faster than moving my hand from the mouse to the numpad.

You still lose the 4/8/6/2 shortcuts for orbiting in 15° increments, but I never used those much. It gives quick access to front/back/left/right/top/bottom preset views. The ortho/perspective toggle is in a second-layer "More" menu which isn't ideal, but quick enough action for something that I'm not changing back and forth all the time.

You can also navigate the pie menus with number keys, so typing q-1-4 will pull up the menu, open the second level, and toggle ortho/perspective.

In addition to being quicker than moving my hand to the numpad, I also like that it keeps my desktop UI consistent with my laptop where I don't have a numpad either.

Outside of the numpad and pie menus, 2.8 has the clickable view gizmo in the top right corner for people who like to click on stuff. That's a nice addition for new users, it's certainly the most discoverable of the three options.

On non-qwerty layouts such as azerty (french) you gave to press shift to type a number on the top row so a numeric keypad is quickly useful. (And those are not very friendly for coding either...)

Same, but I'm really fast at typing numbers without a numpad. I find moving my hand to a separate location just for numbers is a lot slower. Imo most people that could learn to type numbers quickly without a numpad as well. I wonder what the mechanics of some people typing faster on a numpad are, like how does the layout help over having them aligned in a row? Maybe there's less overlap when moving fingers?

It's a shared skill with calculators (including those with printer tape, which auditing groups seem to adore), and it seems to have the side effect of high keying rates sustained over time.

With a centering mark in the middle of the pad, and only the need to move fingers forwards and backwards (no sideways motion), sustained input of 10,000 digits per hour, with 0 mistakes, is not just possible to expected.

Oh true the shared skills with other tools makes sense.

For me I find that typing numbers with the top row the home keys for the letters are still useful for centering to move between letters and numbers.

Couldn't you argue only having to move sideways for typing is more efficient than having to move forwards and backwards? Plus you can use two hands to divide the digits between left and right hand.

I use it for entering numbers, sure.

Almost every fancy mechanical keyboard seems to do away with it, though, so presumably a lot of people are OK without one.

you can defiantly get 104 key mech boards, and 120 key mech boards are easy to find if that's your thing. With that said, when you're paying $1+ per switch, there's a a good chunk of the market that doesn't mind saving the $40+ to have the extra keys removed. Adding keys to a cheap board is an easy way to add functionality, but once you pay to have customizable firmware, it's just as easy and cheaper to put those keys on a layer.

I use mine more now that it's right under my fingers via a layer switch ;)

I use a Keyboardio Model01 split ergonomic keyboard at work.

As other people have said, numpads are great for some things. They do come with an ergonomic impact though - they push the mouse to the right so that your arm is at a non-optimal angle. I'm thinking of moving to a keyboard without a numpad and using a separate one, but I love my Das Keyboard too much.

I would love to just move it to the left side of the keyboard (as a right hander). It keeps it available, while moving the mouse to a better location.

I could stand to lose the numpad .. if I get to keep the home/end/pgup/pgdown. Currently I'm using a not very good logitech that's the other way round, so I'm using the numpad in "numlock off" mode and discovering which apps treat the keys differently.

What even bothers me more is that those keyboards that do not have a numpad section, cram all the 'insert', 'home', ..., and arrow keys in strange places below and under the normal keys or, even worse, hide them under a function key.

I'm a fan of 60% or tenkeyless (TKL) keyboards personally. I get this weird feeling of my desk being cramped that I really don't like sometimes. A TKL keyboard solved that for me. And don't miss the numpad because I don't enter long strings of numbers much anyway.

I'm right there with you. It feels much better to me to be able to have the mouse more in-front of me than off to the side, especially when gaming.

I tried to go 60%(?) with a Pok3r but I like having the arrow keys available without having to use a modifier key.

65% might be the sweet spot, I have the tada68[1] because I wanted a smaller keyboard but really didn't want to lose my arrow keys and I'm very happy with it!

[1] https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0267/1905/products/tada68-...

Just learned that there is a difference between 60% and TKL, thanks. I've been treating them as the same thing..

I just learned about the existence of smaller keyboards like a year ago, have always had one of those monstrous l33t gamer keyboards decked out with macro keys because they were the only mechanical ones at decent prices last time I was in the market. Just hated the space it took up on my desk.

Right now I'm using a cheap Reddragon K552 because I too like having the arrow keys available and mechanical+backlit was non-negotiable for me. After a few months of heavy use the cheapness is starting to show itself in the key wobble though, do you have any suggestions for a decently priced alternative with better build quality?

My regular home board is a GK64, which has the same layout as the Pok3r, but includes an arrow key cluster (at the cost of smaller modifiers on the right side and a 1U Rshift).

+1. I got my low cost mechanical TKL keyboard off Amazon after I started to get more into Fortnite last year with my son. Just having the extra space for wide swooping mouse movements without having to tilt my keyboard or have it way off to the side was terrific.

After having a TKL, I don't know how any gamer can use a full size. Now I can't see myself going back to full size even if I stopped gaming, despite me constantly eyeing the Logitech MX Keys everytime I'm in Best Buy. The mechanical switches (brown) have grown on me finally; this after having went through a mechanical phase years ago only to not see what all fuss was about. The noise I have drowned out and the the smooth presses are pleasure to type on.

I have looked far for a lower profile scissor switch TKL that can handle gaming (NKRO and backlighting) but doesn't exist. The only negatives of mechanical keyboards are a) the noise which I mentioned and b) the tallness of them. I would never consider having a mechanical like this in the work place because of the noise.

FYI this is the keyboard I have. Highly recommended for the price. Held up for a year now so far of daily use. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DFBKYT5/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_dp_U_x_0...

It's fashion more than anything - and it's fun to play with something you use on a regular basis.

I like the HHKB because of its default layout and how it feels in addition to the way it looks. I wouldn't use these smaller ones, but I understand why people like to play with them.

Agreed. I feel like HHKB hits that sweet spot where it is minimalistic, but still very usable without messing with layers. If it had just a few more buttons (left Ctrl + arrow keys; though I personally don't care for left Ctrl, as I have remapped it to CapsLock, just Like I do on every keyboard), then I wouldn't even need to use the Fn key at all either.

Part of the reason I’ve stuck with the HHKB for a few years now is that I like its default arrow key layout better than regular arrow keys.

Using your right pinkie to hit function and then having the arrows right there is nice. I also use caps lock as control and it’s nice to have it as a hardware default in the HHKB too.

Oh yeah, totally agreed, I absolutely love how the arrow keys work on HHKB. I would be lying if I said there wasn't a learning curve to it, however. First few weeks, i was definitely missing the correct keys, but once it got into my muscle memory, it became great.

It's not for me. I like fewer keys because I find that it's easier/more comfortable to use layers rather than have to do a weird reach for some key I need.

Maybe it's my big lanky adult male meat stick hands but "weird reach" isn't a concept I would have ever perceived as being a thing. That's interesting. Is it uncomfortable or painful or just weird?

Well, I think that any keypress that requires you to move your wrists in any way is weird basically. How do you reach 5, 6, or 7 on your number row for example? what about 1 or ` or esc? I like making it so that I can reach all of these buttons without moving my wrists and with the "correct" fingers.

Today I realise that I have mutant hands. None of those things require much movement at all from me.

I find the cognitive load of having to memorize multiple functional layers outweighs any perceived benefit.

I type pretty fast (100 wpm or so), but when programming typing speed is rarely the bottleneck. I suspect people just rationalize fashion to themselves by pretending it’s also better, but everyone is different so maybe some people actually prefer the complexity.

It's not about typing speed. It's more about comfort and accuracy. Also the cognitive load is really not a thing once you're used to it. Maybe you should learn to accept that some people might be more mentally flexible or skilled than you are rather than assuming people are lying to themselves.

Fewer keys often means more modifiers (if not going to such an extreme as here). That way you can make room for numpad, F-keys or odd keys like page-up or end etc..

True, but unfortunately those extra modifiers are now used up for getting the original keyboard back. If you want to do, e.g. Control-Shift-Arrow to select text, you now have to use even more modifiers. I'm currently using a Razer Anansi which is a full size keyboard with extra modifier keys under the space bar. Combined with AutoHotKey and Caps Lock, I can select text with the keyboard without moving away from home row. E.g. CapsLock + Ctrl(thumb) + Shift(thumb) + L does Control-Shift-RightArrow.

I do wish full size keyboards stopped wasting so much space with the space bar though, the way small keyboards do. That would put more modifier keys in the reach of your thumbs.

Using programmable keyboards with a firmware like QMK, you can reduce the number of modifiers needed on smaller keyboards.

I use a 30%(33 keys) as my daily driver and I very rarely need 3+ button combos even though my arrow keys are in a seperate layer.

For example: My "A" and "O" key acts as shift when held. My "Z" key switches to the layer where "h;,." are arrow keys and adds "CMD" as a modifier. So to select left I do "Z + A + H". I use colemak so A is right above Z.

There are other tricks I do for reducing layer switches. On almost every keyboard "." and "," are next to each other but they are never used together in any human or programming language. "/" is not used that often so it doesn't make much sense to have it in the main layer of a small keyboard. So I made my "," key to output a "/" if pressed immediately after "." for typing "./". I have some other keys that act different if pressed after a certain key.

Japanese keyboards have a tiny spacebar and a couple extra modifier keys for writing Japanese Characters. I have a Japanese ThinkPad external keyboard that I ordered for using the extra thumb keys, but I haven't started using it yet.

> If you want to do, e.g. Control-Shift-Arrow to select text, you now have to use even more modifiers.

Or you're using Vim where just hitting v is all it takes.

I definitely wouldn't use an even smaller board than 40%, though - that is basically the lower limit for me where I can still map all keys to positions I'm comfortable with. Lower than that and I'd need to start using multiple modifiers at once for some symbols.

My main drivers are 40% split keyboards, which usually mean between 42 to 48 keys. Even with just one additional layer (other than the default one) you have enough keys for numbers and symbols. If you are in need of f keys or media keys maybe you need three layers in total. Takes a bit to get used to the fact that some symbols don’t need shift to be activated but rather are in a different place but it’s not too long of a process.

That been said, I honestly can’t imagine how you’d write code with 28 keys. I assume this is for some sort of steno.

I'd like a 200 key keyboard please, will full macro functionality and programability

You can have that. Just plug in another one, and write a script that opens the device exclusively and interprets the events so it doesn't send normal keystrokes.

I don't want a collection of keyboard - I also prefer something that all the macro functionality is inherent to the device, so I dont need a cross platform software, I should just be able to plug the keyboard in to whatever thing I need to use it on, and it should just work.

Why? I have an 80 key keyboard and even that's too many, since I have a bunch of layer-changing keys.

Answering for myself: It's another thing I have to remember, or visually look for. I have to remember the state of the keyboard, I have to remember even more key chords, or both. I have enough cognitive load going on keeping a programming, gaming, or design stack going in my head to add another load keeping track of the status of my input device.

Even should the actions become muscle memory (I own, but no longer use, a HHKB and know that muscle memory fits in), that muscle memory will fail me the moment I have to use another keyboard, causing a mental stutter as I consciously override my muscle memory (with the HHKB, that was escape and delete in particular).

Moreover, I can feel my way around a keyboard and find all of the keys I could need by the clustering and relative position to the home row. Since I don't rest my hands on the keyboard while typing, this movement is not at all uncomfortable or distracting.

That's why I like full keyboards, why even I could find a keyboard with more keys useful.

Yeah, I used to have a dumb terminal on my desk, and I used the macro functionality inherent to it to semi-automate all sorts of workflows for myself, it was very very helpful.

This one has too few keys for me, but I love the minimal cuteness of these tiny keyboards.

> I don't get the obsession with custom keyboard with ever fewer keys.

IIRC, this idea was originally proposed on reddit as a joke taking this idea to the extreme.

I think TKL/80% keyboards strike a good balance.

I never really got used to using the numpad block, and it's nice to have the mouse a little bit closer. But I definitely use the navigation keys (both the arrow keys and the Ins/Del/Home/End/PgUp/PgDn block), F-keys, symbols (`~[{]}\|;:'",<.>/?), all of the modifier keys, Esc, and PrtSc.

Well, I use a 30% (33 keys) as my daily driver for programming. I like being able to reach every key and function without leaving the home position at all. Plus, I use my laptop outside of office a lot and I can very easily carry this keyboard around with me. It even fits into my coat's pocket.

It's not really an obsession. I grew up with using a laptop majority of the time so I simply don't expect a numpad to be there anymore.

Also it's more comfortable to use the arrow keys and PgUp, PgDown without the numpad. (I'm on TKL)

I would prefer fewer keys if I were building my first keyboard.

I built a 107 key ergonomic keyboard last week. Still writing up the details, but trust me, you are not the only one that wants a lot of keys ;) This is the layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/f903ee27a11bcb... (The legends as shown are not what the keys actually do; when I was designing the layout I was trying very carefully to use keycaps that come with a default GMK group buy set... this was how I kept track.)

I think the obsession with small keyboards is manyfold:

1) Large keyboards get in the way of the mouse.

2) People have noticed that they have to move strangely to press keys the farther away they are from home row. 1 is a stretch for most people, F5 is probably impossible. So why include them?

3) It's easier. After laying out 107 keys in CAD, waiting for an 18"x9" keyboard to print in three pieces, soldering 107 diodes, soldering 27 wires to my microcontroller, and reading the entire STM32F103 reference manual to figure out why one row didn't work... I can tell you that a 28 key keyboard seems a lot easier to build ;)

4) They use the same keyboard for home and work, and want something easier to carry around. When I switched to an Ergodox a couple years ago, I managed this for about 3 days before buying another one. To me $600 on keyboards is nothing, but to a lot of people, that's unimaginable.

Personally, I see the advantages with both approaches. I don't actually have ({}) keys on my keyboard; they're on a layer and under the jkl; fingers, because that's easier to type than moving my pinky to some weird place to jab them with my weakest finger hundreds of times a day. So using a Planck or a 28 key keyboard wouldn't feel all that different to me when programming or writing prose.

But what people don't consider are all the cases where you aren't touch typing but are instead issuing high-level commands to the computer. Some people frequently use mouse-driven software (CAD, video editing, etc.) and have the option to either pick a command out of the menu, or press a key on the keyboard. With a 28 key keyboard, the typing route means taking your hands off the mouse and pressing at least three keys at the same time. So you pick it out of the menu. With a full keyboard, you can use the "wrong hand" to press F12 or something, and not break your flow by navigating through 8 layers of menus.

(Even with all this in mind, a split 107 key keyboard doesn't help every use case. Some games really want you to type right hand keys with your left hand, and a split keyboard makes that difficult. I don't play any of those games, though ;)

I don't understand it either. I built a keyboard with fewer keys and it makes programming very difficult, even if having the keyboard split apart is much more ergonomic.

I've been on 40% for a couple months now, and I don't find programming to be more difficult. I'd say it's about the same, just different.

I've been on 30% for a year now (programming) and never going back. Was using a split 40 before.

I would love to see your layout & settings!

Hey. This is my keyboard (and the layout): https://imgur.com/gallery/GwQONlT

And my keymap file: https://gist.github.com/burakcan/dbb292e47df2defaffd405669fe...

Thanks. That's a very nice looking keyboard. And I like that it's wireless!

It's probably not something I would use unless I can find a way to make mod-tap more reliable for me (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22112693). But using a tap dance for ESC (or some other key) seems like an idea I could steal to free up a key for other uses.

This also got me to look into quad function tap dance and I realized I could use it to bind altgr to the same key I use for alt and dash with a double tap + hold. This should work since I've never seen any program require a combo that uses alt and altgr at the same time.

It seems like you don't have a mechanism for inputting ^X, how do you deal with that?

My related settings for mod tap are as following, never had any issues with unintended modifiers:

#define TAPPING_FORCE_HOLD #define IGNORE_MOD_TAP_INTERRUPT #define TAPPING_TERM 200

> It seems like you don't have a mechanism for inputting ^X, how do you deal with that? I use macos so there's no need for it. Cut is CMD+X on macos. But to do CMD+D I have 2 CMDs (D and K). Same goes for shifts (A and O)