News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Battle of Alesia by srge on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @11:42AM (#21993011)
In France, this event is well known and taught in class (at least it was in the 80's).

As I remember it now, this was taught as a bittersweet moment in our history. We united, we were brave and fought a stronger army but still we were defeated and our chief was captured and killed by the enemy.

As a result we were colonized and we lost almost all our Celtic culture (Celtic culture remains present notably in Bretagne — Britain). But we were "civilized" by the Romans. I think this was taught as being a tough but positive thing.

Today I find it interesting to think about how "civilization" spreading if often a gruesome process and how it's seen centuries, if not (in this case), milleniums later.

Re:Battle of Alesia by hrktb on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @12:47PM (#21993823)
It’s always funny how the Franks are seens as “us”, when looking throught history France has been washed by waves of invasions that all left deep cultural mixes.

Going to Normandy nowadays and looking at general public exposition it’s make pretty clear their ancestry is mostly from the Vikings and Nords.

In the east it’s also clear that their frenchness is a fluctuating and partial attribute.

All around the country, each region have a very clear multi-cultural past. And Paris and its periphery is a huge Petri dish of people coming from around the world with a significant number of families that have no ancestors that were in France more than four or five generation ago.

Books still present Franks as french people’s ancestors, but I wonder how teacher make it match with the reality when they teach their students.

Re:Battle of Alesia by Karto on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @04:32PM (#21996017)
The battle of Alesia took place several centuries before anyone heard about the Franks. The "us" the OP is referring to, is the Gauls.

I won't argue with the essence of your point though, although, for what I know, much of the nobility up to the 1800's was of Frankish descent, while Gallo-roman blood dominated among the commoners. So some heritage was there indeed.

Re:Battle of Alesia by baud147258 on Thursday January 09, 2020 @07:51AM (#22000744)
> Books still present Franks as french people’s ancestors, but I wonder how teacher make it match with the reality when they teach their students.

I think the goal of using 'our ancestors the Gauls' was to create a shared history, to promote a national identity, without any regard to the actual ancestry of the actual population.

Also you have to put back the origin of this idea in his context: it's coming from the XIXth century, when moving away from the monarchy. The Gauls served as a common ancestry, without any reference to the previous monarchies, which explain why it was pushed by Napoleon III (who started up excavation looking for the site of Alesia) and the IIIrd Republic.

Re:Battle of Alesia by mytailorisrich on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @05:47PM (#21996603)
The Franks are not depicted as ancestors of the French people in general but rather as the founders of France.
Re:Battle of Alesia by hrktb on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @06:43PM (#21997011)
Sorry I mixed up Franks and Gaulois, which are two different things altogether.

The part I had in mind is the old “our ancestors, the gaulois” which is not taught as is anymore, but still stays very present in the minds through an almost exclusive focus on Gaulois’ side when depicting that time period (not just fantasy depictions like Asterix, but also a lot of documentaries and reconstitutions funded publicly)

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nos_ancêtres_les_Gaulois

Re:Battle of Alesia by mytailorisrich on Thursday January 09, 2020 @03:14AM (#21999399)
Well, in fairness it is true that 'modern' French have Gauls among their ancestors.
[dead]
Re:Battle of Alesia by dang on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @03:12PM (#21995250)
Please don't take HN threads further into political or nationalistic flamewar. Not what we want here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Battle of Alesia by hrktb on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @01:37PM (#21994369)
Not sure to get what you are pointing at by “invasion”, but I was talking about french residents with french nationality.

PS: for additional context, vikings were around the 9th century. I am not pointing at just current trends.

Re:Battle of Alesia by adger on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @02:07PM (#21994646)
Normandy is a small region in the north east of France. Brittany is a small region in the north west of France.

Some Vikings were exiled from what was Wessex, East Anglia etc., but became England.

This is why posh people in England sometimes call their dog "Rollo", Rollo was the Viking leader that the Normans descended from. The people that went on to invade England.

None of this invalidates the idea of France or England or French or English.

Ps. You were pointing to current trends, hence pointing toward Paris and peripheries or "four or five generations ago"

Re:Battle of Alesia by senderista on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @03:19PM (#21995332)
French people are about as Frankish as Bulgarians are Bulgars or Hungarians are Magyars (i.e., not very), right?
Re:Battle of Alesia by Athas on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @11:53AM (#21993153)
> As I remember it now, this was taught as a bittersweet moment in our history. We united, we were brave and fought a stronger army but still we were defeated and our chief was captured and killed by the enemy.

Isn't modern France mostly a descendant of the Frankish kingdoms, where the Franks are quite different than the Gauls and in any case arrived in the area far later than the Battle of Alesia?

Re:Battle of Alesia by smacktoward on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @12:04PM (#21993298)
Yes, but while in political terms the Gauls, Romans and Franks were distinct entities, in cultural terms the region was more of a melting pot. The Roman conquest of Gaul ended up blending their two cultures into a new, distinctive "Gallo-Roman" culture (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Roman_culture), for instance, and then when the Franks came along their culture got blended in as well. So modern French identity has strains in it running back to all three sources.
Re:Battle of Alesia by seszett on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @12:12PM (#21993389)
The Frankish kings were a small minority of rulers and did not actually leave much Germanic influence.

The modern French culture is a direct descendant of Gallo-Roman culture, which is basically Roman culture with a little Gaulish influence.

Re:Battle of Alesia by m_t on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @11:59AM (#21993231)
Of course, but a nation identity is built on more than just facts.
Re:Battle of Alesia by chimeracoder on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @12:30PM (#21993638)
> Of course, but a nation identity is built on more than just facts.

In fact, a state's national identity is based on almost anything but facts.

Re:Battle of Alesia by arethuza on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @12:00PM (#21993248)
"To ravage, to slaughter, to usurp under false titles, they call empire; and where they make a desert, they call it peace."
Re:Battle of Alesia by PeterCorless on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @12:52PM (#21993879)
Tacitus.
Re:Battle of Alesia by quotemstr on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @03:37PM (#21995526)
Who remains one of the world's great historians. Sometimes we read old books because we want to understand how these books influenced the course of thought. But sometimes, old books are just genuinely good in their own right and would be just as good if published today: Aristotle, Thucydides, Tacitus, Aeschylus, and a bunch of other authors fit this latter mold. I wish more people read them.
Re:Battle of Alesia by rurban on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @08:45PM (#21997722)
But in this case I preferred Caesars book about the battle. Caesar had a very clear and engineer-like writing style, compared to Tacitus.
Re:Battle of Alesia by PeterCorless on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @12:51PM (#21993869)
Reminder: the Franks were Germanic invaders who kicked the Romano-Gaulish in the teeth. This is like Englishmen mourning King Arthur and his Romano-British followers, ignoring that their ancestors were probably more the Hengests and Horsas of the story.
Re:Battle of Alesia by adger on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @01:21PM (#21994207)
But...Is it not more like Englishmen celebrating Alfred the Great? You know, the Anglo-Saxon leader. A Germanic peoples (Alfred's army was also made up of Britons)
Re:Battle of Alesia by PeterCorless on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @05:41PM (#21996557)
Alfred would not be the correct analogy to Gaul/Rome. The Gauls were "Celtic" like Arthur's Britons. They were both facing invasions.

Alfred's French analogy would be Charles the Simple, who had to fight off the Norse invaders and made a treaty to give them Normandy. Though, it has to be said, Charles the Simple had a much better time of it.

Re:Battle of Alesia by agumonkey on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @12:41PM (#21993762)
I'm a bit dubious about the state of gaul civilization. History books weren't super solid and recent archeology uncovered new commercial routes and production sites (wine jars). The Roman Empire was great, no question, but I'm not sure if other countries were so far behind.
Re:Battle of Alesia by cognaitiv on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @04:57PM (#21996227)
This was taught in Latin class in the US as well, although my mental image of the spikes was very different from the photo. I thought it would be on more of a downward slope.
Re:Battle of Alesia by senderista on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @03:09PM (#21995222)
Isn't Breton culture really rooted in ancient Cornish culture, not the historical continental Celtic culture?
Re:Battle of Alesia by abrowne on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @07:24PM (#21997281)
Very roughly, Britons were the main population in southern Great Britain (roughly England, Wales and Scotland to the Firth of Forth), but were "squeezed" during the Anglo-Saxon settlement into more isolated pockets — Cumbria, Wales, Cornwall — and some crossed over to Brittany. How much of of the "squeeze" was population replacement as opposed to languistic and cultural change is up for debate.
Re:Battle of Alesia by ceejayoz on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @04:06PM (#21995801)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_nations

> The six territories widely considered Celtic nations are Brittany (Breizh), Cornwall (Kernow), Wales (Cymru), Scotland (Alba), Ireland (Éire) and the Isle of Man (Mannin or Ellan Vannin).

[dead]
Re:Battle of Alesia by alexhutcheson on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @12:28PM (#21993612)
> Stop making up silly, false, fake identities.

I think this is an unnecessarily negative framing. All national and regional identities are mostly socially constructed "imagined communities"[1].

For example, most Americans aren't descended from colonial settlers, but they still identify with the colonists when they read about or discuss the Revolutionary War.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagined_community

Re:Battle of Alesia by adger on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @12:56PM (#21993918)
I would go further than say it is an unnecessarily negative framing, this idea always seemed pretentious to me, nowadays it seems supressive.

Are they really imagined? Or is this idea mostly a "social contruct" that is not really accepted as reality outside of a few "intellectuals". They seem to be describing their delusions of grandeur. Is it not them that have the problem?

Re:Battle of Alesia by zozbot234 on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @12:45PM (#21993801)
> Stop making up silly, false, fake identities.

The irony of course is that "Celtic" is a silly word to begin with. There's plenty of circumstantial evidence that the 'Celtic' culture of Gaul was reasonably similar (and quite close in cultural 'ancestry') to Roman culture anyway, making assimilation relatively painless. The British isles may have been a somewhat different case.

Re:Battle of Alesia by senderista on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @03:24PM (#21995392)
There’s no good reason to apply the word “Celtic” to the pre-Germanic inhabitants of the British Isles, other than some linguistic affinity. No ethnic affinity has been demonstrated. The word should be reserved for continental European cultures, as the Romans used it.
Re:Battle of Alesia by adger on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @01:14PM (#21994114)
To be fair, "circumstantial evidence" in archaeology is just saying something because you found a pot that looks like another pot. There will plenty of "circumstantial evidence" to suggest the opposite. :)
Re:Battle of Alesia by CydeWeys on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @12:26PM (#21993583)
That's not really how conquest works though. At least some of those original Celts reproduced with the Romans, and thus some genetic heritage continued.
Re:Battle of Alesia by chimeracoder on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @12:48PM (#21993831)
> That's not really how conquest works though. At least some of those original Celts reproduced with the Romans, and thus some genetic heritage continued.

That's not really how nations or ethnic groups work, though. The fact that some "genetic heritage" from the Celts may be found today doesn't actually mean that Celtic culture has anything to do with the modern nation-state of France.

Re:Battle of Alesia by genS3 on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @03:22PM (#21995366)
try saying that to non-european countries and see how you will fare in trial.