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Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by wstrange on Monday December 30, 2019 @02:20PM (#21915892)
I agree with most of what you have written, but this:

> doesn't mean I want Google getting a free pass to mine and sell my data.

AFAIK, they don't do that with gmail. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

We need to hold Google's feet to fire on privacy, but it is also important that we do not exaggerate or distort the facts.

Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by bcrosby95 on Monday December 30, 2019 @04:36PM (#21916934)
Unlike most other responders, I generally trust Google not to do this. Everything they say they don't do has been confirmed to me one way or another by people working there that I trust.

They may make money off ads but I don't think they have any real incentive to lie about what they're doing. Because most of their users don't actually care. I would be curious if anyone knows of any scenario where Google has outright lied about what they do and don't do with information, because I've never heard of it.

For me, I moved off gmail for other reasons: my email is too important to randomly lose access to because e.g. their youtube AI thinks I'm spamming a channel on Youtube. I look at all my data in Google as if I might lose access to it forever some day, because someday I might, with zero recourse.

Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by thebean11 on Monday December 30, 2019 @09:41PM (#21918563)
What exact behavior of Google are we talking about here? I'm pretty sure they do mine emails for their own ad targeting. On the other hand, I'm equally sure they handle the information securely and don't pass it on to anyone else.
Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by wstrange on Monday December 30, 2019 @09:50PM (#21918595)
> I'm pretty sure they do mine emails for their own ad targeting.

They do not. See https://support.google.com/mail/answer/6603?hl=en

"We will not scan or read your Gmail messages to show you ads."

Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by tinus_hn on Tuesday December 31, 2019 @05:47AM (#21920156)
Yet, they state

https://policies.google.com/terms?hl=en

> Our automated systems analyze your content (including emails) to provide you personally relevant product features, such as customized search results, tailored advertising, and spam and malware detection. This analysis occurs as the content is sent, received, and when it is stored.

Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by tuananh on Monday December 30, 2019 @10:51PM (#21918809)
> "We will not scan or read your Gmail messages to show you ads."

that reads to me like ""We may do it for other purposes."

Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by jdminhbg on Monday December 30, 2019 @11:08PM (#21918882)
They obviously do, as does every mail provider that filters spam, at a bare minimum.
Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by twoflower9 on Tuesday December 31, 2019 @05:29PM (#21925206)
Whenever I book a flight google offers to set alarms and gives me don't forget your flight tomorrow notifications. They are obviously reading the email to achieve this.
Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by SahAssar on Tuesday December 31, 2019 @04:22AM (#21919889)
Well, if they didn't you wouldn't be able to search in your inbox, among other things.
Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by eschutte2 on Monday December 30, 2019 @10:15PM (#21918683)
Interesting, looks like they stopped in 2017.
Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by mdp on Monday December 30, 2019 @02:36PM (#21916002)
You're right, "Sell my data" might have been too strong. But they are certainly mining it to train things like their "suggested responses". In my view, it's an ad company, and while they might not be doing it today, there's nothing stopping them from using my data in the future, hence the "free pass".
Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by jrobn on Monday December 30, 2019 @03:15PM (#21916290)
I don’t trust google products. I will never buy anything they want to sell to me. Burden is on them.

I tore off my nest thermostats and replaced them with dumb ones. I miss the ability to change my heat remotely, but at the end of the day. I don’t need that functionality.

Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by orhmeh09 on Monday December 30, 2019 @03:52PM (#21916612)
They already scan your purchases in your inbox: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/17/google-gmail-tracks-purchase...

They say they won’t use it to sell ads:

> “To help you easily view and keep track of your purchases, bookings and subscriptions in one place, we’ve created a private destination that can only be seen by you,” a Google spokesperson told CNBC. “You can delete this information at any time. We don’t use any information from your Gmail messages to serve you ads, and that includes the email receipts and confirmations shown on the Purchase page.”

What guarantee is there that this is not being used for other purposes? To train other kinds of models? To, say, monitor other people’s AWS bills, in order to optimize their own offerings? How likely is it that such a project was approved with no gain except adding perceived value to the Gmail product? I have a hard time believing they would do it only for that.

Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by joshuamorton on Monday December 30, 2019 @04:33PM (#21916906)
> I have a hard time believing they would do it only for that.

Why? Adding perceived values is how you get more users. More users == increased revenue.

I think the important question is: if Google were doing something nefarious like that, why on earth would they tie it to a public feature instead of just keeping it totally secret?

Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by orhmeh09 on Tuesday December 31, 2019 @11:10AM (#21922006)
But is that actually nefarious, or meaningfully proscribed, or is it not understood that this kind of stuff is how Google makes money, and how it will continue to make money into the future? Is this unacceptable to most people? I am uncomfortable with it, but isn't this the way "business is done?"
Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by peteretep on Monday December 30, 2019 @05:02PM (#21917070)
I think you're right in the simple case, and they're not _currently_ doing something nefarious, but I also think it takes one creative product manager one day to decide they will directly sell that data, and most people will be too invested by that point
Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by cle on Monday December 30, 2019 @02:46PM (#21916064)
IMO the burden should be on Google to prove that they don't. The flow of personal data through their systems is opaque and they have plenty of incentives to monetize the data.
Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by mdszy on Monday December 30, 2019 @02:59PM (#21916156)
You can't prove a negative.
Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by nkrisc on Monday December 30, 2019 @03:28PM (#21916397)
They said "prove" but really it's about trust. Google has lost many peoples' trust and it's on Google to restore that trust.
Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by fulldecent2 on Monday December 30, 2019 @09:55PM (#21918617)
Sure you can. Apple does not run its image classification on your images using its cloud servers. You can test this by stepping inside a microwave or other cage and seeing that image classification and search still works on the iPhone.

---

On the other hand, what Apple does with your photos that you allow to be exfiltrated through iCloud... that's your own stupid fault.

Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by dredmorbius on Monday December 30, 2019 @09:05PM (#21918423)
We're not talking about mathematical or scientific levels of proof, but assurance and trust.

The usual methods for achieving this are government regulation and oversight (free of capture), and independent third-party audits (likewise).

The good news is that there seems to be ... some, slight ... progress in this direction.

Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by rgbrgb on Monday December 30, 2019 @03:11PM (#21916258)
You definitely can [0], but this one would probably be hard for google without significantly modifying the architecture of gmail in ways that would remove its revenue model. For example, they could open source a client that had audit-able end-to-end encryption, but then they couldn't optimize ad revenue by aggregating and mining large email datasets.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_impossibility

Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by mdszy on Monday December 30, 2019 @03:47PM (#21916566)
> a proof demonstrating that a particular problem cannot be solved as described in the claim, or that a particular set of problems cannot be solved in general

did you even read the article you linked

Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by rgbrgb on Monday December 30, 2019 @05:53PM (#21917423)
Apologies, I thought you were saying that you can't prove a negative... that negative proofs (like the examples linked) do not exist.
Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by tinus_hn on Tuesday December 31, 2019 @05:39AM (#21920133)
Google does mine email but does not sell the data.
Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by naniwaduni on Tuesday December 31, 2019 @05:48AM (#21920159)
... because they find it more profitable to retain exclusivity over the data, sure.
[dead]
Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by dang on Tuesday December 31, 2019 @01:08AM (#21919288)
Please don't post unsubstantive comments and/or flamebait to HN. Discussion here needs to be a lot better than this
Re:ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar by askafriend on Monday December 30, 2019 @03:44PM (#21916541)
> They got close to 1 trillion dollars

That's....not how that works...