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Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by deforciant on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @10:37AM (#21878873)
In my first real IT job we were buying and installing networking equipment for phones, internet in one big government project. It was hard to not choose Huawei when comparing to Ericsson, they completely copied their equipment, even the Ericsson manuals would suit Huawei while the price was 10x lower. Obviously since it was a public tender Huawei won, it did feel wrong though.
Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by 100011 on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @10:52AM (#21878946)
The obvious lesson for any Western state is to formally protect its critical industries. Of course, some brain damaged opposite lesson will be taken, such as 'China must liberalize'; good luck with that gents, LOL.
Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by Al-Khwarizmi on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @11:41AM (#21879202)
US: "You must embrace the free market, open the markets, liberalize everything, avoid protectionism. It's better for you because it's more efficient, you will be richer, blah blah."

Western countries: "OK."

China: applies protectionism, obtains unprecedented growth, steamrolls markets

US, Western countries: "Free market is obviously much better, protectionism and planned economies are inefficient and can't work, but... but... they're cheating!"

At least the US acts in their own interest (anarchy, i.e. the free market, makes sense if you're the strongest). What's pathetic is that European countries believe all the neoliberal dogmatic BS when we don't even benefit from it.

Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by dtwest on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @12:55PM (#21879629)
The idea is that if everyone plays by the free market rules, the average country will be better off.

If every country plays by these rules except one, which uses mercantilist tactics to win zero sum games, that one country will have an advantage.

If every country plays by mercantilist rules, that advantage will not be there for everyone, since now the game has changed.

China's "unprecedented" growth was achieved by Japan and Korea during their peak growth period. Britain was the original champion of liberalization while the US was protectionist for much of its history. The EU is still quite a bit richer than China and has done well during this liberal period since nearly destroying itself in WW2. There are so many details you are choosing to ignore.

Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by yborg on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @12:46PM (#21879562)
Anything works when you are the strongest, the argument is greater good vs. individual gain. The mercantilist model works well when you are the only one executing it into a free market. If everyone is behaving in a protectionist manner, than it gives no advantage and (in theory) everyone in the market has lower growth. However, the 'strongest' parameter still applies, and we can see this right now with the tariff war between the US and China. The US still has the strongest economy at the moment, so the instant the US began behaving in a protectionist manner the Chinese suddenly became much more interested in (slightly more) serious negotiation.

I actually don't fault China for executing their strategy, it certainly made logical sense and has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. I also don't fault Europe for executing their strategy and they have benefited from it - Europe was ravaged by wars over its history and one of the ways to avoid that was tight economic integration. Different circumstances require different strategies.

Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by JPKab on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @12:11PM (#21879358)
Do you really think the mercantilist model is sustainable in the long run? It seems to me that it works great for playing catch up, but only if there are nations willing to purchase your goods.

China doesn't have the domestic market they could have if they hadn't weakened their currency by transferring wealth from savers to the exporters.

Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by 100011 on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @11:53AM (#21879259)
China is the monkey's paw to Western liberalism.
Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by rjzzleep on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @11:41AM (#21879204)
It's pretty much this. Except that the US seems to try backdoor subsidies, which isn't really addressing the core issue. There was a pretty good analysis of the whole thing about exactly this issue but I just can't remember where it was.

I used to see the Ericsson guys once a year and they seemed to be pretty busy bragging about all the new 5G patents they have.

https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/news/us-eyes-nokia-erics...

Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by taeric on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @10:55AM (#21878962)
Isn't that predicated on them having a lasting presence? That burning money can propel someone to the top seems given. Keeping them there, though?

Granted, I would think some market protections would also make sense.

Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by sct202 on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @11:27AM (#21879134)
But should America for example support Nokia and Ericsson which are not American. Most of the major American telecom equipment companies were sold off to European companies after the telecom bubble burst.
Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by rdlecler1 on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @11:36AM (#21879176)
Nokia and Ericsson are not government entities.
Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by betaby on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @11:48AM (#21879233)
Neither Boeing or Airbus or Bombardier, yet they get astonishing amount of subsidies. Even smaller players get huge preferences.
Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by GordonS on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @12:54PM (#21879626)
And not just subsidies either - I've read several accounts, going back decades, of how British and US spies have inserted themselves into Boeing and Airbus respectively, to steal IP and research to provide to Airbus and Boeing respectively, trying to give them an unfair advantage behind the scenes.

The west complains about China stealing IP, but the west were doing the same long before the Chinese - the difference is the scale and brazenness of China's tactics, and indeed the vast success of those tactics.

Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by goatinaboat on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @03:27PM (#21880267)
Well not quite. US/UK/France/Germany all steal IP from each other, but with China it’s asymmetric. It’s a one-way flow of unprecedented scale. And the former countries are allies and the alliance isn’t in any way weakened by this. Again with China it’s different.
Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by 100011 on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @11:44AM (#21879216)
With US, NATO backing Ericsson/Nokia can be made trans-atlantic military alliance compliant 5G alternative that can rival Huawei.

Currently, the above is not even a policy choice considered openly by Western governments, not that I know of. We are forfeiting technological lead in this domain despite US making the first big steps in same domain in WW II and later with state backing, history plays jokes like that I guess.

Too many people are brain wormed by ideas stemming from liberal philosophies. China is not benevolent, they're rising power. They don't share same ideas of society as we do. Free markets haven't existed in hundreds of years. Yet all are influential ideas that stop us from addressing China realistically. Talk of bringing democracy to China for example is not realistic. The Communist Party has 90%+ acceptance rate by the populace.

Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by gruez on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @12:11PM (#21879367)
> The Communist Party has 90%+ acceptance rate by the populace.

That statement comes with so many questions. What is meant by “acceptance”? It definitely sounds like a weaker word than say “support” or “approval”. The least favorable interpretation would be that “acceptance” simply means “I don’t currently intend to overthrow the current government ”. If we’re using that definition, trump probably would have a 90%+ “acceptance” rating as well. Definitions aside, getting accurate polls on political topics in totalitarian countries is tricky because the respondents are incentivized/pressured to answer in support of the current regime.

Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by 100011 on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @12:33PM (#21879485)
Ipsos pol from July 2019, 90%+ consider country on the right track: https://i.imgur.com/nBuccjq.png

"accurate polls on political topics in totalitarian countries is tricky because the respondents are incentivized/pressured to answer in support of the current regime.

Are we describing China or Brexit/Trump polls from 2016.

Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by gruez on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @12:52PM (#21879603)
>Are we describing China or Brexit/Trump polls from 2016.

Snark aside, there's a huge difference between the two. In the case of brexit/trump, even if there was social pressure to not reveal your real preferences to the pollsters, everyone's real preferences are accurately represented at the polls. Moreover, nobody is risking getting sent to reeducation camps or getting their social credit scores ruined by saying they support trump or brexit. This is as opposed to China where the only measure you have are opinion polls, and the only cross-check mechanism is whether the CCP is still in power or not.

Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by 100011 on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @01:30PM (#21879794)
It wasn't a snark; I have yet to witness a liberal definition of totalitarian state that's not a sand castle. A liberal state is a schizo state that has no positive theory of state so it doesn't have a theory of totalitarian state. It's delusions about how oppressive monarchy was, slightly before they started bloodshedding in the name of raison raisonnante, do not apply here.

What the Chinese have is a formal system, and I can't quite tell if the informal liberal system isn't worse. This was a point of contemplation for Andrei Navrozov as an emigrant from USSR to US in the 1970s in his book "The Gingerbread Race" [1]

> [1] https://archive.org/details/NavrozovAndreiTheGingerbreadRace...

Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by jimmy2020 on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @10:58AM (#21878979)
that's not how things work in free markets. Not even during the cold war.
Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by 100011 on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @11:08AM (#21879028)
I wish you the best in trying to convince China of this abstraction called 'free markets', when mercantilism is working extremely well for them, as it did for Europe too. Free trade is installed intrastate in the Empire, such as British Empire with its colonies, but even during this era the externality that Empire projected was that of mercantilism such as East India Company adventures in China. As it is clear, 'free trade' is a weapon of the strong, and strong isn't a word to call US or Europe of 2019. Certainly nowhere near strong enough to force China for free trade regiment.
Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by jimmy2020 on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @11:20AM (#21879091)
> I wish you the best in trying to convince China of this abstraction called 'free markets'.

Nobody can, that's why US imposing sanctions.

Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by api on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @11:17AM (#21879073)
Another factor in China's rise is deciding to not care about the environment at all. Western nations spend quite a bit to have clean air, clean water, parks, etc. The cost comes in the form of more costly energy, raw materials, and waste disposal.
Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by 100011 on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @11:28AM (#21879137)
True. It's not like when NW Europe cared about pollution when it was gunning for the top of the world. And of course we in Europe and US are making loud noises about pollution after the fact we have made it, so to speak, 'big'. Like another poster pointed out, it's a rather sad attempt to 'pull away the ladder' from still rising nation(s) to use same means to climb the ladder as we in Europe/US did.

I would believe much more into pollution talk by my dear leaders if 1. We were springing up nuclear reactors 2. Stopping third world immigration into Europe 3. Had concrete trade moratoriums against India and China. This would probably cause issues with US defense and military industries though, the situation is rather fragile [1]

> [1] https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/americas-mo...

[dead]
Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by dang on Friday December 27, 2019 @02:57AM (#21889863)
Please do not post nationalistic flamebait to HN. It leads to nationalistic flamewars, which are lame and all the same and nasty. We're trying for better than that here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by mechhacker on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @12:01PM (#21879301)
There have been many instances of tech like this going through the same cycle where they copy tech after some period of cooperation.

A lot of the execs in various companies downplay this concern, say "it's not going to happen this time" and then dip out with 7 figure bonuses before it happens again, this time. The majority of the people doing actually work seem to see right through it.

Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by utopian3 on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @11:01AM (#21878990)
Agreed. Does Ericsson have a comparable 5G offering? I’m wondering why I never see their name come up when articles are written about avoiding Hauwei
Re:State Support Helped Fuel Huawei’s Global Rise by jimmy2020 on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @11:04AM (#21879003)
That's the whole point of state support. In the end, you will have a winner that being able not only to copy the technology but also have enough capital to create new one. Which is why Huawei is shining in 5G technologies.