Microsoft couldn't do it because everyone new (of the users) that even if they put in their effort to switch and wait for the ecosystem to grow, they will end up with just the same crap: another closed-source monopoly with it's own quirks. We won't have just two overlords, but instead 3 of the same. Wow such a difference...

Now an truly open system might make a difference. Not saying it will, it has it's own problems, but comparing it to Windows Phone is not really apples to apples.

You overestimate how many people care about whether something is open or closed source.

I had a Windows Phone. It was bad. Even Microsoft apps were subpar. Skype app was simply unusable. They weren't dogfooding.

Also Google torpedoed it.

The third party app platform was pretty slow and missing a lot of APIs relative to the others. The first party UI, which got praise from reviewers for being smooth, was written in a different language and framework.

In the first version, the default blank app from Visual Studio's "new project" wizard was slow to load. I think I measured it on the order of 500ms at the time. Not much room for third parties to add more stuff without being slow.

The only question I'd ask is : how many phones should they sell to break even ? Cos if they actually make some profit, that's just fine. Maybe they don't aim to go to mass market. And that's why MSFT may have failed : they tried to fight on Google's ground, head to head. Of course Pine can't do that. So if they just repeat what's been done for Raspberry, that's just great enough to have a living ecosystem.

I personaly just need SMS, voice and a browser. The rest, I can live without it (or program it :-)

In my opinion Windows Phone 8 is still far ahead of Android in terms of usability. It has at least 3 features I wish Google would just copy.

Pretty much all the apps were bad though, I agree. Even the official OneNote app was a joke compared to the Android version.

You greatly overestimate the number of users who care about how closed or how open an ecosystem is.

If the user can't interact with their bank, whatchu YouTube, talk to their friends and parents over Snapchat or Skype, call Uber, play Spotify, etc etc etc, it doesn't matter in the least if your phone is 100% open source.

Microsoft had sunk billions into trying to get the ecosystem off the ground. What makes you think that "a truly open system" will get that ecosystem?

> If the user can't interact with their bank, whatchu YouTube, talk to their friends and parents over Snapchat or Skype, call Uber, play Spotify, etc etc etc, it doesn't matter in the least if your phone is 100% open source.

Most of this should be available on the PinePhone at launch (albeit not as nicely as on Android).

Bank - should have a website (and if they don't have a website they most likely don't have an app anyway)

YouTube - website again (youtube.com)

Skype - has a web app and a Electron app available for Linux (web.skype.com)

Uber - has a PWA that can be used for booking rides (m.uber.com)

Spotify - has a web app and a Electron app available for Linux (open.spotify.com)

My bank app has significantly better usability than the website because it can mostly cache credentials and support a short login procedure. Or use the fingerprint scanner.

Your web browser can fully cache credentials.

.. but the bank sets them to expire after five minutes of inactivity, because it (correctly) doesn't consider it to be all that secure.

Why is it secure when an app does it?

> Bank - should have a website (and if they don't have a website they most likely don't have an app anyway)

In my experience mobile banking is more often than not provided via app exclusively.

Not really, among "normal" banks. This does seem to be the case with the new "challenger" banks like Monzo and Starling, which are all "mobile first" and are basically impossible to use if you don't have an Android/iPhone. But every regular bank in the UK has a website with online banking, often with more functionality than the apps, but maybe this is different in other countries - online banking in the UK has been commonplace since before mobile apps were really a thing.

Funnily enough, my last bank and two current ones, the app is increasingly a front for a mobile web version. With each new update I see more functionality moving to web.

What are some American banks that don't have a website but have an app? I'm curious.

BofA, the bank that most Americans use, doesn't support mobile check deposit outside of the native app.

I have an account with Bank of America and was not aware of this so thanks. That said, you can do pretty much everything else via the website. The opposite is also probably true, that there are some features on the website not available on the app (for example can you open a new CD in the app?).

> Spotify - has a web app

Doesn't that require Widevine DRM?

No whatsapp = dead in the water in Europe.

And Viber, which is quite famous on Balcan countries.

The target audience isn't people who need to use Skype, Snapchat, or Uber. But I'm sure it will be possible to run some of those android apps through anbox. Spotify has a Linux client, and for YouTube there's the FreeTube client, which actually protects users' integrity.

What's your point? They are very aware that they are targeting a niche market.

it doesn't have to.

All it really needs to do is make calls and have good browser (Firefox would do). Signal would be a nice bonus.

This might not be enough for all (i am sure it wont), but for me and several other people I know, it would be enough, to be our main phone.

That's how Openmoko sold a grand total of 13000 phones. Not enough to even cover the cost of production, most likely.

The market you're describing is minuscule.

People on HN seem to hate them, but honestly progressive web apps have potential to solve most/all of those usecases.

I love them, thanks to it I have refocused on mobile Web, even though I tend to prefer native apps.

For traditional CRUD apps, PWAs are quite alright, and one avoids having to deal with Android's always changing "best practices", with a stagnant Android Java.

(Hopefully) Ease and flexibility of development for 3rd party applications?

Do people really complain about ease and flexibility of development for iOS and Android?

In regards to Android, it is more lack of thereof.

So how do people without phones participate in society? I don't use a google account on my phone, so that means no App Store. I'm trying to one day get rid of my google account too. It doesn't cause me many issues in the UK though I can't use things like Uber, and that's no loss to me.

How would I get on in Denmark?

The UK government "settled status" application procedure for EU nationals resident after Brexit was only available as an Android app. Otherwise you had to apply in person at a specific site.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/03/mps-slam-an...

It should have been a website. Why on earth was it an app? Presumably so it could spy on the other data on your phone.

So it could read the RFID tag in the passport.

There are a few things you cannot do. In some areas of Copenhagen you can't pay for parking without an app, I'm told (but I don't drive so I don't know for sure).

The biggest mobile-only thing is an app called MobilePay which is used mostly for person-to-person transfers, and a lot of people don't use cash at all anymore. I am starting to see classified ads that specify "MobilePay only", although I guess you could usually convince people to accept a bank transfer instead. A lot of shops also accept it, but there is a law that shops have to accept cash, but some places don't respect it. Very few shops don't accept credit cards, but these generally also like cash...

As for digitization in general, all communication with the municipality and state and things like your bank and insurance company is digital. You're required by law to have a bank account and to have it associated with your personal ID number (all Danish residents are tagged with their birthday + 4 digit code in the Central Person Register). This all goes via a website that works with all browsers, though, but I wouldn't be surprised if down the line some features started being smartphone/app store only.

"There are a few things you cannot do. In some areas of Copenhagen you can't pay for parking without an app, I'm told (but I don't drive so I don't know for sure)."

What are the permissions granted to these apps ?

Do they, as I fear, "require" full access to all contacts, all photos, location data ... ?

> So how do people without phones participate in society?

It's not super hard. Until ~3'ish years ago I did not have a smartphone here in DK. Life is just so much easier with it.

I think they got rid of the 10x Bus ticket you would buy at a kiosk, so now you have to buy a single tickets with coins inside the bus. (depends on the city) Which means you need cash. DK society is very much cashless, I mostly see older people still using it.

Is the bus late or did you just miss it? Check the app to see the bus location.

Train Ticket? Now you have to print that out or buy it at the station. It's so easy to search, buy and show the ticket via the app.

Letter from most public authorities / government? There is an app for that. Or website.

Want to give your mate some money? -> MobilePay app. Now you have to get cash somewhere and convince him to take cash. Or go to a computer and transfer it. Which requires more information then just this number and takes longer.

Just buying a rejsekort (travel card - you put some money on it at some machine with your credit card and it pays automatically when you check out at the end of your trip. It also has a significant discount vs buying individual tickets) solve all the problems for buses, trains, metro, etc. You can also put your commuter card on it if you want, or you can receive a commuter card by text message which would even work with a dumb phone.

But it certainly helps a lot to have a smartphone, mainly for the government messages and the nem id app.

Sounds like Sweden. About 10 years ago I was very surprised to be able to pay for a bus journey using my (foreign) debit card. Now it's normal in the UK. And I have Swedish friends who have never seen the newly issued currency.

Crazy but it's the future. It's just a shame that it's gatekept by unaccountable duopolies such as Google...

Funny you should mention that, my Google account got somehow restricted yesterday due to Google Pay not liking my rooted phone. Now not only can I not pay with the phone, but I have to submit all my private information to a random Google web page, hope someone sees this, hope they agree it's correct, and hope that this was the problem in the first place (since all the app says is "this operation cannot be completed").

In summary, fuck Google. This is why I want cryptocurrency to succeed. I don't want corporations deciding how I spend my own money.

Imagine future cashless society with mobile-only payments. And a smart-car that needs a phone to open/start. And a smart-home with front-door unlocked with a phone. If you loose/break your phone - no problem, you can replace it with a new one, borrow one or use that old phone you keep in a drawer just in case. Not a huge deal. But if your account gets locked you have a problem. I'm afraid we as a society are giving too much control to a few corporations. It's not that of a problem yet of course

> It's not that of a problem yet of course

And that's the problem, that it's going to be insidiously gradual. These lockouts will mostly be seen as acts of God, things that happen to the less fortunate other people and not us. As long as they're kept rare enough, people won't bother solving them, like what happens with countless other things.

You don't need to wait! Visit China today. In all seriousness they are heading this way - you need a WeChat account to do or pay for just about anything, you will soon need face verification to sign in to any internet service, and fingerprint readers on doors are very much a thing.

According to the Lloyds website they (and other UK banks) are going to start sending an auth code to your phone as part of the web logon. Though I believe you can ask them to send you a security gadget as an alternative. It is a PITA though.

I'm in Canada and access Uber via their PWA. m.uber.com I think, I just did the "add to home screen" thing and it launches as a fullscreen web app. No need to have the app installed.

It has its own issues indeed, I don't deny that. But that used to be the same for Ubuntu when the Windows-only culture was at its highest. People who want this phone will use workarounds, custom apps, anbox or just web apps.

It wasn't that Microsoft couldn't do it, it's that they chose not to.

Through all of Windows phone 7, 8 and 8.1, the devices that were selling were low end devices -- things like the Lumia 520, especially in markets with more cost sensitivity. Because of software architecture differences, windows phone was often more responsive than android on bottom of the market phones, and that drove sales. But when it came time to release Windows Mobile 10, there were no low end phones.

Having to build out essentially three flavors of your app (one for 7, one for 8, and a 'universal' app for 10) isn't a great way to keep developers engaged either.

That's the point. You have a real computer, then you have a rpi to play with, do some hobby work around it, etc. If you're buying it as an analog to some flagship phone, don't.