News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by josefrichter on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @08:32AM (#21824586)
Nah, it's a small quirk, but it exists in many other languages. Phrasal verbs are the real trap. Keep up, keep off, keep out, keep on, keep out,... Rather uncommon in other languages and very easy to make mistake, sometimes very embarrassing one..
Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by xpil on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @08:41AM (#21824660)
My words exactly. There's over 3000 phrasal verbs in English and memorizing them is pain in the hole (plus it makes no sense). The only effective way of learning them is to submerge yourself in the language by listening to plenty of audiobooks or moving abroad where English is spoken natively.

I'm Polish myself and hit a hard wall with phrasals when I moved over to Ireland 13 years ago. I still keep discovering new ones every now and then despite living here for over a decade.

Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by V-2 on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @09:01AM (#21824854)
We kind of do the same thing, only in the form of prefixes (podać, wydać, zdać, zadać, oddać, poddać, nadać, przydać etc. and on and on it goes). Ultimately it boils down to the same thing - little syllabic bits altering the meaning of the verb.
Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by iforgotpassword on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @09:11AM (#21824970)
Yes, It's exactly the same in German. So I guess I don't agree with this comment thread at all - It's just learning vocabulary. I never felt like this is a specific problem when learning English. I much more agree with the article: Spelling + pronunciation is just fubar and the greatest annoyance.
Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by josefrichter on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @09:39AM (#21825240)
You are right, didn't realize we do the same in most Slavic languages and it's common in German too. It just always seemed to me that it's much more common in English. But I have no numbers to support that, so I might be completely wrong.
Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by StavrosK on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @08:54AM (#21824783)
I managed to learn the pronunciation and phrasal verbs, but prepositions still get me from time to time...
Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by ramblerman on Thursday December 19, 2019 @08:46AM (#21834818)
> The only effective way of learning them is to submerge yourself in the language by listening to plenty of audiobooks or moving abroad where English is spoken natively.

That's the only way to learn the quirks and idioms of any language really.

Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by simion314 on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @08:58AM (#21824828)
I think a big reform to change the language to write how you speak would happen someday but postponing it will make it harder when it will have to be done or maybe a new artificial international language that is consistent would solve this.

I personally have problems with the double L , I never know when to use 1 or 2, like in until and still , I always guess wrong and have to use spell check to fix the problem. Similar for other inconsistent usage of double letters.

Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by kwhitefoot on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @09:34AM (#21825198)
> write how you speak

If you write how you speak I will not be able read what you write and vice versa. English has a wide range of dialects, nare you going to try to impose on on the rest of us. Someone like me used to broad West Country speech would spell rather differently than a Glaswegian for instance. Should we have diacritics to indicate stress? If so will you choose the common US (stress the ultimate syllable) or British practice (stress the ante-penultimate syllable)? In British English, the name Bernard is pronounced with the final vowel as an unstressed, almost elided, obscure vowel; but it is a stressed long a in US English.

I often see people demanding that English be written phonetically. Many of those people seem to be unaware that their own languages also have dialects and that they would be equally unable to write phonetically in a way that would satisfy all users of that language.

There have been numerous attempts at consistent auxiliary languages. None have become very popular. The only 'widely' used auxiliary is Esperanto and that has already shown itself to be subject to all the same evolutionary forces that drive changes in natural languages; people must invent new words and then they disagree about how to spell them, how to use them, what gender they must have; slang is created and eventually becomes normalized in some communities but not in others, etc.

Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by ASalazarMX on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @02:29PM (#21828381)
> I often see people demanding that English be written phonetically. Many of those people seem to be unaware that their own languages also have dialects and that they would be equally unable to write phonetically in a way that would satisfy all users of that language.

Spanish is largely written as it's spoken. Even with its many accents and dialects, holding a spelling bee would be ridiculous because of how easy it is to deduct writing from pronunciation.

That being said, if it was reformed to the point where it absolutely was written as spoken, it would become very ugly.

Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by simion314 on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @10:11AM (#21825605)
I understand your point about regional dialects, I think the main issue is with old or borrowed words. I was inspired by the fact in Romania we had such a reform where the alphabet was changed and the rule of write how you speak was added. The accents are not written and regional languages have their special way of speaking certain words or even some special grammar but you learn in school the correct thing and the national radio/TV will speak correctly so there is no issue except with small children that would make small mistakes in the first year of learning to write. I don't expect this too happen soon and when it will happen the present generations would be the ones that would have to suffer the transition for the benefit of the new generations.

So if you can get objective and think about 150-300 years in the future , do you think there will be no changes to cleanup things in the language ?

Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by kwhitefoot on Monday December 23, 2019 @05:44AM (#21862794)
> think about 150-300 years in the future , do you think there will be no changes to cleanup things

You can change it and clean it up all you like but that won't stop its evolution and a hundred years later the spelling and pronunciation will be out of sync again.

I don't mean that we should necessarily avoid reform but what you get when you do a serious reform is a new language that is different from all the dialects and it must either be imposed from above or be in some way sufficiently attractive for people to adopt it. And then you have another dialect.

See also the xkcd joke on standards, I think it applies here too: https://xkcd.com/927/

Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by AtlasBarfed on Thursday December 19, 2019 @01:01PM (#21837424)
But did esperanto start with the defacto position that English has: the dominant worldwide language (at least economically speaking and certainly technologically).

I guess what I'm saying is maybe they should take a swing at making something similar to esperanto, but with a focus on making it as understandable by an english speaker as possible.

Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by cgriswald on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @11:28AM (#21826481)
> In British English, the name Bernard is pronounced with the final vowel as an unstressed, almost elided, obscure vowel; but it is a stressed long a in US English.

I don't think you can generalize the US pronunciation this way. Source: This was my grandfather's name.

Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by kwhitefoot on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @01:41PM (#21827837)
Agreed. That was rather my point, and I defer to your more specific knowledge.

The point is that there are many ways to pronounce the same word even within one country.

Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by Shorel on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @09:43PM (#21831626)
Bulgarian language seems to me extremely phonetic, to the point I can correctly write and read words and I still don't know what they mean.
Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by mumblemumble on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @09:27AM (#21825142)
I agree that having a more comprehensible writing system would help, but I also suspect that any serious attempt to change it now would be counter-productive.

If you don't get all the countries with an official interest in the language to agree to the change in sync, you're going to create a mess for proficient speakers and an even worse mess for learners by increasing the volume of spelling you have to learn. And even if it does work out, you're still going to create a mess for learners - especially the ones who don't have enough money to replace all their materials all at once - by creating an orthographic horizon.

I've also got my doubts about whether the end goal is even possible. 100 years ago, there was an effort in the UK to try and come up with a new native English alphabet in order to try and address this same problem. One of the reasons it failed was that, even within one country, the language's pronunciation wasn't regular enough to come up with a spelling system that's phonetic for all speakers. Since then, the gamut of pronunciation that can be considered official has only widened, meaning the possibility of creating a truly phonetic writing system for English has only become more remote.

Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by ASalazarMX on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @02:21PM (#21828281)
It would be cool if a new, unambiguous and simple language was developed to talk exclusively to computers instead of natural languages. Something like Loglan/Lojban.

Since it would be taught everywhere, people might start using it as lingua franca. It would certainly be better than Esperanto, which is not better than other natural languages despite being artificial.

Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by simiones on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @09:15AM (#21825012)
I don't think there are many languages with a large disconnect between spelling and reading. There are some exceptions in most languages, but nowhere near as bad, in my experience.

The Romance languages for example have pretty clear spelling rules. It's not 1 letter : 1 sound, but usually 1 group of letters : 1 group of sounds, such as "ll" in Spanish or "ill" in French or "ch" in Italian&Romanian. There are usually exceptions around loanwords and old names, and sometimes different sounds that native speakers don't realize they pronounce differently (e.g. in Romanian a final 'i' in a word is usually a semi-vowel, while 'i' in the middle of a word is a full vowel, but most Romanians you ask would tell you that it's the same sound, even if they pronounce and hear it differently ).

Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by vadasambar on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @08:43AM (#21824673)
Spelling is a difficult part of learning English language, more so if your language has a what-you-read-is-what-you-pronounce pattern like Indian languages. Anything that uses Devnagari or other Indian scripts have one and only single way to pronounce things which is super consistent because every alphabet has one and only one sound and it does not vary with context.
Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by billfruit on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @08:51AM (#21824748)
I would reckon that even more than spelling, the subtleties of stressed and unstressed intonation of syllables in English is perhaps more difficult to grasp,for example most Indian speakers would find it almost impossible, as generally the Indian languages lack those (unless we consider prosody).

I personally feel stress is an ambiguous term for the concept, for English atleast it is more about the duration of a sound, rather than the intensity of it.

Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by Avalaxy on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @08:46AM (#21824705)
> more so if your language has a what-you-read-is-what-you-pronounce pattern like Indian languages

I don't know Indian languages, but this can be subjective. A Mexican friend once told me that Spanish is easy because you pronounce it the way you write it... What he did not tell is that LL, J, H, B/V are all pronounced different in his language.

Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by bluGill on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @08:53AM (#21824774)
The rules in Spanish are easy. LL being different from l and rr different from r are the only hard ones (and r/rr is only different because you are allowed to do the advanced tongue roll, but it is correct without) J and H are different from the English pronunciation once you learn what is correct it always applies.
Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by yorwba on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @09:08AM (#21824934)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Spanish#cite_note-App...

"/b, d, ɡ, ʝ/ are pronounced as fricatives or approximants [β, ð, ɣ, ʝ] in all places except after a pause, /n/, or /m/, or, in the case of /d/ and /ʝ/, after /l/. In the latter environments, they are stops [b, d, ɡ, ɟʝ] like English b, d, g, j but are fully voiced in all positions, unlike in English. When it is distinct from /ʝ/, /ʎ/ is realized as an approximant [ʎ] in all positions"

Although the rules may be easy for native speakers who grasp them intuitively, they can be a lot more complex for speakers of other languages, who are used to different "easy" rules.

Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by xpil on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @08:51AM (#21824749)
They may be pronounced differently than in English but at least they are pronounced in a predictable way i.e. the same letter (or diphthong) will always result in the same pronounciation.
Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by Shorel on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @09:46PM (#21831640)
G and J are the biggest inconsistencies in Spanish, in my opinion.
Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by dundercoder on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @08:44AM (#21824682)
Native English speaker here, this is my first time ever hearing about phrasal verbs.

After learning French and Spanish (wow there is such a thing as a subjunctive tense?) I started to understand how ridiculous English is, but this? wow.

Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by kwhitefoot on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @09:42AM (#21825280)
Subjunctive is a mood not a tense. And it is experiencing something of a revival in English.

You can have subjunctive in the past as well as in the future.

All languages are ridiculous to varying degrees. Why do tables have gender? Why do the French continue to write final t's and s's when they stopped pronouncing them two centuries ago? Why must adjectives agree with their nouns? Why do many languages not have any way of easily referring to someone without mentioning their sex. Why do declensions exist when auxiliary words can perform the same functions?

Re:The hardest aspect of learning English as a second language by darkwater on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @09:16AM (#21825023)
No, it's not a small quirk. It's a repeated error with several different, completely unrelated cases.

Only English surnames need to be spelled when pronounced or pronounced when in written form because you can't possibly know how to pronounce them by just reading them (and don't blame this on immigration)