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Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by antoncohen on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @02:51PM (#21817940)
I want to put on end to the "you can't contact Google" comments that comes up every time Google Cloud makes the front page.

You can contact Google Cloud. They are very responsive. I'm currently at a small startup using GCP, and I've been at similarly sized startups with equivalent AWS spends. I have found it easier to have serious discussions with GCP, compared to AWS.

We have dedicated GCP contacts. We actually have a Slack channel we share with our dedicated GCP contacts, so we can easily ask questions. Two of my coworkers just got out of a meeting with Google PMs less than an hour ago. Another one will be meeting at a Google office tomorrow. I had a meeting with about a dozen Google engineers and PMs from their database team(s).

Yes, you have to pay for support. They have a couple different support options, depending on your needs. But you have to pay for support with AWS too.

The one bad thing about Google Cloud support is their Level 1 support. It is very easy to submit a support ticket, and they will respond quickly. But if you are highly technical, and know what you are doing, and can research yourself, Level 1 support it nearly useless. They do make it easy to to escalate, with a prominent Escalate button in the ticket. And you can always escalate through your direct contacts (Account Manager, Technical Account Manager, Customer Engineer). But it would be nice if Level 1 could be bypassed, or were more technical. I think they are trying to iterate on the process. They recently started offering to have a video call a lot of the time, which isn't my cup of tea, but I think it is a sign that they are trying to improve the Level 1 support.

If you are using Google Cloud as part of a business, you will be able to contact them. You will probably have an account manager that you can probably meet in person with. If you pay for support you will be able to submit support tickets, real humans will respond, and respond quickly.

Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by choppaface on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @04:25PM (#21819013)
I’ve had a similar experience where I could email PMs and we even had Google forward deployed engineers on-site.

The trouble is that their customer service is terrible.

We reported numerous issues and there was no tracking at all. For one UI bug in their webapp, a PM completely disregarded the reproduction instructions I gave him and made me have a half-hour kong Hangout with a remote engineer to prove the bug existed. The engineer even found more bugs while watching my screen.

The sales engineers (solution consultants?) are rather slimey, especially compared to the PMs who often admit when they don’t know something. This one eng kept pushing Dataflow even after we said no 100 times. It appears Google uses Dataflow / Beam internally now (instead of MapReduce) and so I guess at Google you’re dumb if you’re not doing the “correct” thing.

Also frustrating was how much money we wasted due to things like multi-gpu jobs taking 10-15 minutes to start and their GPU hypervisor pausing the whole system for 10-20 seconds incessantly.

If you use GCE, make sure Google is paying for the bloody edges. Get a ton of credits.

Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by faizshah on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @05:29PM (#21819637)
Cloud Dataflow is also vastly more expensive than using pyspark and Apache Beam is 10 times slower for most operations than Flink or Spark. I have to try the new flexible scheduling but DataFlow the last time I tried it 2 years ago was a massive rip off.

Also DataPrep was amazing until you run the DataFlow pipeline it produces and a < 1TB dataset cleaning costs $25...

Have had good experiences once the data is in bigquery and bq keeps costs low. But lately Ive been trying to figure out a semi-managed way of doing exactly-once stream processing for cheaper than dataflow. Possibly an architecture around cloud run might work.

Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by ramraj07 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:38PM (#21821540)
$25 for cleaning a relatively small dataset does sound a bit high but not outrageous.. given the process abstracts out all the infra tweaking and setting up various systems. $25 an hour is probably a good estimate of how much a data warehouse like snowflake costs for a reasonable cluster as well, so unless you spin up your own spot ec2 instances and set up a spark cluster and perform the operations the cost savings are going to be marginal at best?

Do you need to run this pipeline more than once a day? Is it sufficiently important for your business case? I feel like 25 is a very small sum if any of them are remotely true.

On a related note, how practically reliable is the DataPrep->DataFlow workflow? Could a reasonably smart analyst with zero programming experience set them up and run them? Feel like that's who this workflow is built for, but I've not had the best of experiences with Trifacta demos in AWS with reliability.

Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by choppaface on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @01:57AM (#21822519)
In my experience $25 for 1TB of ETL is outrageously high. That’s 100 cores of GCP or AWS for 4-5hrs. I have some very very CPU intensive jobs that would take about that time for 300GB of data. But if it’s just parsing CSV / JSON and doing some joins then I’d think $5/TB would be more reasonable.

I agree a warehouse could get more expensive, but that’s where Athena or BigQuery is supposed to come in? BigQuery is rather expensive though. It can’t support reading Parquet natively (of course Google insists on their own format) so you have to pay their heavy tax versus just object storage and elastic compute.

Also the classic BigQuery UI is way less buggy than the new one, and the PMs won’t take bugs for the new UI.

Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by choppaface on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:14PM (#21821435)
Oh wow thanks for the info! Had no idea Beam was that slow.
Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by faizshah on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:55PM (#21821620)
Check this reference out: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1907.08302.pdf

“ Our benchmark results show that Apache Beam has a noticeable impact on the performance of DSPSs in almost all cases. Programs developed using Apache Beam suffered from a slowdown of up to a factor of 58 in the worst case. At the same time, there is one scenario where the query developed using Apache Beam is about as fast as its counterparts using the APIs of the corresponding DSPS. However, for most scenarios we observed a slowdown of at least a factor three.”

Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by slovenlyrobot on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @04:33PM (#21819116)
I had a 4 roundtrip email thread with their support over a speech API bug. Eventually sent them a narrated step-by-step screencast, and the guy is finally like "oh, it's not supposed to work that way." (Yes, that's what I said in e-mail 1!)
Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by stingraycharles on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @04:39PM (#21819176)
To be perfectly fair, I have had these types of experiences (plus more) with AWS as well. Their solution engineers are pretty useless, bugs in products never get solved and you get endless forwards and escalations on their issue tracker.

I think in general, scaling support for such complex a product that’s constantly changing is really difficult.

Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by dilyevsky on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:10PM (#21821118)
4 rt? You got off scot-free! I had several multi-week threads with daily posts for something that should’ve been a p1 bug fix on their end.
Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by nikanj on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @03:44PM (#21818598)
In one corner, I have the good experience of you, a semi-anonymous internet commentor.

In the other corner, I have the dozens and dozens of blog posts from HN front page from people who have gotten shafted by Google "support". And those are just the ones who had their ticket escalated, i.e. got lucky and made it to the front page of HN.

I'm not saying you haven't gotten great support. Hell, there are people out there who are happy with Comcast support. I'm just saying I've read too many horror stories to risk our business.

Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by jerf on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @03:57PM (#21818745)
Most of those Google support stories aren't about GCP, though. It's things like app support, or Gmail support, etc.
Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by nikanj on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @04:02PM (#21818795)
People, me included, just remember Google doesn't support their products. I won't be arsed to consult a list of Google products and properties to see if this particular one is going to get support or not.

If I buy something from Microsoft, I can contact Microsoft support. I don't have to roll the dice on it being actually supported by Microsoft, or only supported by other desperate users on an abandoned phpBB somewhere.

Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by susijdjdjxa on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @05:25PM (#21819583)
I don’t buy this claim that Microsoft has good support for all their products. If my Windows machine is running slow will Microsoft support help me? Why do my family members keep asking me for help with their computers if Microsoft support is so great?

To me, the idea of getting good support on any consumer software is laughable, and has no bearing on Google.

Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by ratww on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @01:40PM (#21827835)
> If my Windows machine is running slow will Microsoft support help me?

Microsoft does offer paid support for Windows.

Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by freehunter on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:59PM (#21821366)
Because there aren’t a lot of stories of businesses struggling to contact Microsoft over a product they’ve paid for. Yet every other month there’s an article on the front page of HN of some paying business struggling to reach Google and the only way to do it is to go viral on social media.
Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by yc_2345 on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @03:54AM (#21823060)
The upgrade from Windows 7 to Windows 10 had similar consequences, but this could also be a reflection of the different types of audience the two companies serve.

For example, the person who wrote this book is probably never going to post a complaint on social media:

https://www.amazon.com/Winning-Against-Windows-10-Microsoft-...

Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by derefr on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @04:13PM (#21818903)
Figuring out whether a vendor will care about their customers in a given situation has a very simple, very universal "worst-case rule": if you're paying the vendor, and your "account" (in the financial sense) is typewise-indistinguishable from other accounts, of customers who pay the vendor ridiculously-huge amounts of money, then there will be a good support process for you.

Why? Because big-spender enterprise customers demand that vendors implement hand-holding red-carpet VIP support for them; and most of that work is, surprisingly enough, a capital cost, not an operational expense; and so you can free-ride on it as long as it's been set up.

On the other hand, if there is any way to typewise-differentiate you from the big-spender customers, then you'd better believe that they'll have support channels you don't have.

Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by umvi on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @11:40PM (#21821854)
Well, maybe they should've called it "Alphabet Prism" or something and not "Google Cloud" so that it is set apart from their other product support in consumer's minds.
Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by manigandham on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @05:41PM (#21819746)
You're mostly likely getting lucky. We've gone through their highest tier startup program and have had so many account reps assigned that most aren't even with the company anymore. The ones that are don't reply to emails either.

GCP is the absolute worst at human support. Of course you get responses when you pay for support (since you're paying) but even then we've had several instances of refunded support costs because of a lack of reply over their SLA.

Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by ec109685 on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @12:19AM (#21822059)
With Slack, anyone in the organization can file a ticket and get a human to respond in a few hours. If something isn’t great about Google Sheets (or of their cloud offerings), I have no idea how to submit and issue that will get attention of someone at google. They lose big time for this stance.
Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by teddyuk on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @04:05PM (#21818826)
I don’t know if you still can but it used to be that with Microsoft premier support if you passed some specific exams you could bypass the first tier (who were excellent engineers) and go straight to escalation/ cpr engineers
Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by neop1x on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @01:32PM (#21827747)
Slack? "This invite link is no longer active.". Their official Slack link in the docs: https://googlecloud-community.slack.com/join/shared_invite/e...
Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by kkapelon on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @04:46AM (#21823315)
>Another one will be meeting at a Google office tomorrow. I had a meeting with about a dozen Google engineers and PMs from their database team

This implies that you live/work close to a Google office. Correct?

Re:Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microso... by golergka on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @10:25AM (#21825750)
Well, that's Google brand power for you: when one of their services has support that isn't shitty, nobody believes it anyway.