This is very true because yes, kids can be a lot of fun. They can also be exhausting, frustrating, terrifying, and just plain boring at times. That too is ok. It's kinda how it's supposed to be.

I suspect one of the reason Paul Graham views them the way he does is because he has approached them with a genuine sense of curiosity. If you're trying to mould them too much (a mistake I'm sad to say I've made too much) then things are going to be rough for both of you. But if you explore the world with them, placing boundaries only where true danger lies, then things can become really intellectually and emotionally interesting.

Also, you know what? Take some time for yourself periodically to recharge! You know what else? Let and encourage your spouse do the same! Also? Take some time together without the kids from time to time. Your kids might complain at the moment but you'll all be better for it in the end.

Probably another factor is wealth. He must be, what, at least a hundred-millionaire at this point? That's going to afford a lot more options for dealing with the dreary parts, and give him a lot more confidence that he'll be able to follow through on those protective urges he describes.

This feels terribly sentimental, but of course it's a sentimental topic, so... a poem that I very much appreciate on some of these feelings (http://web.colby.edu/csc-mcnair/rulesnewcar-tcluster/):

    The Rules of the New Car
    by Wesley McNair
    
    After I got married and became
    the stepfather of two children, just before
    we had two more, I bought it, the bright
    blue sorrowful car that slowly turned
    to scratches and the flat black spots
    of gum in the seats and stains impossible
    to remove from the floor mats. “Never again.”
    I said as our kids, four of them by now,
    climbed into the new car. “This time,
    there will be rules.” The first to go
    was the rule I made for myself about
    cleaning it once a week, though why,
    I shouted at the kids in the rearview mirror,
    should I have to clean it if they would just
    remember to fold their hands. Three years
    later, it was the same car I had before,
    except for the dent my wife put in the grille
    when, ignoring the regulation about snacks,
    she reached for a bag of chips on her way
    home from work and hit a tow truck. Oh,
    the ache I felt for the broken rules,
    and the beautiful car that had been lost,
    and the car that we now had, on soft
    shocks in the driveway, still unpaid for.
    Then one day, for no particular reason except
    that the car was loaded down with wood
    for the fireplace at my in-laws’ camp
    and groceries and sheets and clothes
    for the week, my wife in the passenger seat,
    the dog lightly panting beside the kids in the back,
    all innocent anticipation, waiting for me
    to join them, I opened the door to my life.

When my 4 year old comes and wakes me up to ask for breakfast, I can't just tell him to go away, even if I only went to bed 2 hours ago because I sometimes have trouble sleeping.

When he asks me to play with him it breaks my heart when I say no because I'm working. I work from home, so I need to maintain boundaries otherwise I'd always be playing with him.

I feel terrible that I resent him for waking me up early, and really have to work at reminding myself that I don't hold it against him and that I did get up and care for him, even when I didn't want to.

It breaks my heart to disappoint him, but I need to work or he doesn't eat. I also try to actually keep working hours so that I have time to spend with him.

Honestly, just meeting your childrens basic needs as well as you can is being a good parent. We can't be there all the time to do everything possible. We're human; we don't have the time or attention.

As for the chemical change mentioned, the only difference I've ever felt is I get much more sad when something bad happens to a child, but otherwise, I don't think I think I've changed much elsewise. My heart wasn't bursting with joy when either was born, not to say I wasn't happy.

When I had my first kid in 2009 I was expecting this whole life changing experience, instead it was just...the same, except now there's a baby take care of.

Three kids later and I definitely have strong feelings around my kids, but it's not some kind of revelation. They're people just like me, they just have less experience. It's my job (legally and ethically) to make sure they have a reasonably well informed, if biased, framework to examine, test and act in the world.

Your job is also to love them! Emotional neglect has real and serious consequences.

For an introduction to this concept, I recommend:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23129659-adult-children-...

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15812553-running-on-empt...

Yeah I didn't have that instant flip. But after about 6-9 months, when they become increasingly interactive I started to enjoy it more. Before then it was more a sense of duty to help this tiny thing survive.

Yeah. As babies they're not terribly interesting. Around 1 years old they're at about my level.

I experienced similar. My son is 16 months, and it's gotten way more fun.

The way I explain it to my non-dads male coworkers, 1 to 18 months is mommy time and you’re there to help, but month 19 and forward is all daddy time until they’re 15 and they hate you. You’re literally the coolest person on earth for them. I like being a superhero.

And let's be honest, having (essentially) unlimited resources makes having kids a lot less stressful.

Many of us stress about college costs, and costs in general. And, getting help can be very expensive, unless you have extensive family support.

I don't have kids but from what I know about small children they're likely to be a thousand times more selfish than you.

I have kids and what I’ve learned and noticed is that kids are, unsurprisingly, just like people, and there are selfish ones, and not so selfish ones. Generalizations don’t really work with people, or kids, because kids are people.

Parphrasing Brian Tracy [0] all people (and kids) are - lazy, greedy, ambitious, selfish, ignorant and vain - this is just a human nature. We're not bad because we feel those - because everybody does - what makes a difference is how we react/what habits we develop around those feelings that counts.

[0] Six basic character (...) - Psychology of Achievement - Brian Tracy

Kids demand a lot of time but can be remarkably unselfish. My 3 y.o. daughter made my bed this morning and tries to help me if I seem tired. We help each other out, and parenthood opened me up to a way of living that was less self-interested.

And the 50 lines of code you hurriedly typed in a flash of inspiration is also likely to not compile. Because it's a project that starts off very rough and requires work to shape it into what it needs to be.

All kids are different, but FWIW, my daughter used to take our her pacifier and stick it in her twin brother's mouth when he was crying. When she was a bit older (maybe three?) she'd often give him the last strawberry or whatever from her plate if he finished first. She's five now, and she's an extremely generous and high empathy kid.

Maybe that's unusual, and on average kids can be selfish (or maybe self-centered), but it's not as black and white as you're describing.

And you're playing a game of teaching them about what it means - more general what everything in the world means, how to read the world. You will find it frustraiting and interesting, arguably your task is to shift the balance so it's not frustrating for you and your kid, you'll learn a lot about humans, yourself and kids along the way (or not).

> from what I know about small children they're likely to be a thousand times more selfish than you

Wait until they are 12.

Out of curiosity, how old are you? I was much more selfish and 'go go go' in my 20s. In my mid thirties now and mellowed a lot. I find parenting a joy now, but think I would have hated it 10 years ago.

I'm in my 30s and much more selfish than I was in my 20s. Everybody is different.

For sure. I wasn't intending to give life advice, just a personal account for younger folks who regret/are afraid of parenting. It's easy to change without realizing when it happened!

Mid thirties.

My first child was born at 1 AM, on our third night at the hospital that week. All I felt was tired.

> over the past 3 years have realized just how selfish I am when it comes to taking care of the munchkins.

Ditto. Part of the deal with parenting is to grow out of the selfishness. It's never completely gone (at least, not for me), but I've grown to a place where I am (hopefully, at least) less selfish than I was.

Children grow their parents, too.

Can you explain how being selfish (i.e. wanting to do other things instead of taking care of them) makes you a better parent?

It's not at all obvious.

I have a 2 year old. I enjoy playing with and spending time with him, but after some amount of time I get bored, and the time becomes more tedious. If I spend an entire weekend day only spending time with him, I find myself growing resentful and doing things to just pass the time -- like driving him somewhere reasonably far away, just because driving seems more stimulating for me.

But if I carve out a couple of hours for myself and my hobbies, then I'm able to be more present and engaged and better enjoy the time I spend with my son, which I think makes for a better overall experience for both of us.

I also did not feel a sudden transformation when my son is born. It took about seven months for my wife and I to not feel like we had made a major mistake (note that women are also not necessarily transformed immediately, but that it is even less culturally acceptable for them to admit this.) But somewhere around 18 months that warm, protective feeling that pg described kicked in and I don't have any regrets now (but sometimes it's still boring).

I don't know if this is what was implied - but my wife and I have always believed strongly that you have to maintain the "hub" that is your relationship in order for the bigger picture - the family - to thrive.

My kids (now 12 and 15, goddamit!) are 100% the entirety of my life: the beginning, middle and end. They're the reason my wife and I work for ourselves, the reason we don't work all the time, the reason we haven't grown our business even though we could have. We want to be here for them in the tiny period of time we have them at home, and who cares if we end up financially poorer because of it - our lives are infinitely richer with this time we have as a family together.

But.

Some parents become parents and let their kids dominate. And I don't mean in a disciplinary way, I mean that the kids - especially when tiny - take over the adults lives too. This was obvious for us in the parents that let their kids stay up until whatever time, had no routine, let their kids sleep in their bed, never got out as a couple, etc etc.

The point I'm making is that having kids is THE single hardest thing you'll ever do. It's also THE BEST thing you'll ever do, but it's the hardest. And if you don't take care of you and your partner - by making time to be together, making time to be a couple and not parents, making time to be in love and connected and all those things you did before being a parent - then the whole thing is likely to fall apart.

Whether this is what the poster meant as "selfish" I don't know, but being aware of yourself, your partner, and your relationship in this rollercoaster of a ride seems to me to be an incredibly good thing.

When you're on an airplane, the instructions are to put on the mask before assisting others.

As a parent, it seems counter intuitive to save yourself first.

Self-care and balancing your needs (for whatever definition of balance applies) helps makes sure you are fully present and able to parent--making you a better parent.

It may feel like you are being selfish by putting your needs first; but that's our culture of shame and not a reflection of parenting skills.

It doesn’t make you a better parent. But you shouldn’t feel guilty about your experience just because someone you respect wrote about their experience and it doesn’t mesh with yours.

You’ll make the hard decisions to do what is best for your kid but it isn’t always roses or easy as Paul makes it sound. I’m lucky if I have 3-4 experiences a week where I’m 100% in the moment and enjoying it. That is spending between 3-6 hours a day with my kids during the week.

There is a delicate, nebulous balance between modeling independent adult behavior and being a care giver. Every parent has to decide where that line is; it's constantly changing and difficult to evaluate. We live in an unprecedented time in humanity's history, the longitudinal research is still coming in, and everyone's making up the rules as we go along.

That's not what he wrote.

Not exactly, but my take was similar, that he seemed to be implying that it doesn't make you a "worse" parent.

Specifically:

> I never had the chemical changes in my brain and often over the past 3 years have realized just how selfish I am when it comes to taking care of the munchkins. There are other things I’d rather be doing, learning, building. That is OK.

Had he said "That is OK, provided your partner is also ok with it of course." I would have a different interpretation.

I'll chime in and say it's a balance like everything else in life. If your kids instantly get your attention whenever they want they may have a pretty unrealistic expectation of the real world later when they aren't such a special snowflake.

It's tricky business though and varies by context (age, finances, relationships), and I doubt anyone really knows best. You can easily (and will) err on both sides.

To paraphrase Jordan Peterson:

"No one ever walked into my psychology practice because their parents made them too emotionally independent."

There are some parents out there who continually martyr themselves because they think it makes them a good person (I get 4 hours of sleep a night to make sure my kids have everything! I'm awesome!) but are in fact overinvolved and setting a bad example for the kid by not taking care of themselves. Anecdotally I've found most of my married friends who are/were hesitant about kids were raised by such parents.

It's healthy for the kid to see that the parent needs some enforced level of time to themselves, short of neglect of course. The precise balance is up to the individual.

American parenting is a cancer. I was raised in Europe and had a kid in California, I hate how most kids are raised here and I hate the expectations put on parents. Most people think you gotta stop having fun, you can’t go out because kids and you have to constantly hover them. I took my son out when he was 5 days old and I brought him everywhere since. He knows he needs to be quiet when we go in public and we will not be listening to him if he tries to interrupt our conversations without asking politely. He’s completely fine and well adjusted and the teachers love him.

If you want to raise your kids well, stop treating them like they are a rare Chinese vase and they’ll be just fine.

> I took my son out when he was 5 days old and I brought him everywhere since.

Generally, this is advised against to minimize chances of the child contracting a virus or bacteria while there are no good treatment options in the first few months of life. Also, putting them in a vehicle increases their risk of being in a collision, which has the same problem of having few good remedies, so playing it safe is considered OK.

> American parenting is a cancer...you can’t go out because kids and you have to constantly hover them

Helicopter parenting is a problem, for sure, but that isn't any more american than obesity is.

It's parenting based on fear, a reality of being in the information age and less fortunately the age of social media.

Well... obesity is pretty American.

It's not really clear to me why your comment is being downvoted. You're expressing a constructive opinion.

It seems to me that children can thrive under a wide variety of parenting styles. I consider that my own upbringing was a bit "rough around the edges", but with age I respect and understand my parents more and more.

In retrospect, I wouldn't have it any other way. I respect my parents a lot more than I used to.

Dunno why the downvotes. Like you say, the balance is up to you. Kids are a lot more durable than you’d think.

My understanding of what was types is that being a good parent doesn't mean you don't feel selfish.

Never mistake feeling with wanting. This is such a great mistake.

Virtue is exactly what allows you to behave further that your feelings.

This is true. Having kids changed my life and outlook, but it didn't necessarily subtract from my personal ambitions. I've experienced it more pragmatically than as an epiphany. Some epiphany, for sure, but it didn't change my personality.

I highly recommend watching Mike Birbiglia "The New One". It's on Netflix, which is how I watched it, but I bet it would be pretty awesome to see in person.

I also did not experience the chemical changes part. At the time I was wondering if I would, but nope.

I definitely did. First night home she projectile pooped all over me, and my instinct was to laugh and think it was cute. That brought me up short and i realized my brain had been hacked for the purpose of the species' survival. I would still rather vegetate than play with her on many occasions, but something flipped a switch and all kids are way less annoying than they were. A friend of mine who has gotten all his out of the nest says it wears off. My father in law says the same until you hit your first grandchild when something similar kicked in.

Hi, Nick, can I ask you about that your 2017/2018 HFT project from another thread?

What almost always bothers me about Paul's essays is that he includes 'facts' like they apply to everyone. This is why I don't like most of his eesays.

For example: "..but having kids may make one less ambitious.".

It might apply to Paul but I have never been more ambitious since I had kids.

In his next sentences he almost makes us feeling guilty for it because "..you're probably going to care more about them than you do about yourself."

Ehm, no. Taking more care about your kids has nothing to do with ambitions. At least not for me. You can have great ambitions which include your whole family.

With the qualifiers (“may”, “probably”) provided I’m not sure I see him as offering any absolutes, at least in your quoted passages.

True but he starts out by writing down his own experiences and the he suddenly changes to may and probably if it applies to most people.

Weasel words.

The words "may" and "probably" seem to indicate these statements are not facts, and may probably not apply to everyone.