News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by crazygringo on Thursday December 05, 2019 @12:30PM (#21714236)
> Contrary to the prediction of equilibrium location theory, we find a large negative effect of commuting time on people’s satisfaction with life. People who commute 23 minutes (one way), which is the average commuting time in Germany, would have to earn 19 percent more per month on average in order to be fully compensated.

When I worked in Manhattan, I spent the extra $1,000/mo. to live within a couple blocks of work, rather than a 45-min commute away off in Brooklyn like most people I knew. It's expensive to live next to work.

But here's the thing: I always felt guilty about it. That it was "unnecessary" money to spend, even though I had it. That it was irresponsible.

However, I knew from (painful) experience it was still the rational thing to do. Once you subtract time spent sleeping, at work, and "maintenance" (shower, tidying, etc.) you really only have maybe 5 hours a day of personal time max. If you commute 45 min each way... that's only 3.5 hours. And when you factor in that you need a couple hours to relax, eat dinner, etc. -- that's the difference between having time left over for a rewarding hobby or not, which qualitatively changes your life in a fundamental way, and keeps you sane at work. Whether it's going to the gym regularly, reading books, doing yoga or dance, whatever it is.

But it's still so hard to mentally justify paying such a premium for your own leisure time. It's really easy to tell yourself, no -- I'll save money, commute, and I'll still manage to find the time, it'll be enough... because you're optimistic you can have it all. But you can't. You'll lose your hobby or sleep or your happiness.

Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by TheOtherHobbes on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:48PM (#21715764)
This is the justification for remote. You get the benefits of a full salary while avoiding close-to-work living costs and commuting time.

I spent a hellish couple of years in London living in a pleasant area but commuting to and from a startup near the centre, and since then I've been remote-only.

There are other trade-offs, but it's hard to beat for low stress levels and free time.

Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by dahfizz on Thursday December 05, 2019 @10:08PM (#21718949)
Working remote really is the ideal situation.

Commuting sucks, but so does living in a city. It's noisy and dirty and crowded. You can't own your own property and crime is much much more prevalent.

Owning a nice, quiet house in a nice neighborhood without the commute is just heaven, honestly. At least for me anyway.

Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by ken on Friday December 06, 2019 @01:04AM (#21719611)
You avoid the close-to-work living costs, and also the close-to-work living benefits.

I’d save time, but then I’d spend it driving into the city, anyway, to do most of the things I want to do.

Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by black_puppydog on Friday December 06, 2019 @02:48AM (#21719958)
clarification: I didn't downvote you. dunno why people would.

but if you feel like that, consider if you're living in the "right" place for this. "remote" could mean instead of living in san francisco, living in a small town far away. or heck, somewhere in europe, where I live in the very city center on a student budget.

Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by PascLeRasc on Friday December 06, 2019 @09:44AM (#21722149)
This probably won't be a popular opinion here, but some of us actually want to live in San Francisco, and not just for the job market.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by gnat on Thursday December 05, 2019 @10:16PM (#21718986)
I'm curious what other trade-offs you've noticed yourself making. Can you share?
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by ycombinete on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:25AM (#21719489)
In my own experience with working from home, there are some insidious trade-offs. Especially if you are not closely supervised, or are your own manager in any way. I’ve spent the past 5 years working from home.

Social isolation is by far the worst part of it. We are social animals, and phone calls and voip meetings actually don’t cut it. If you (well At least if I) spend much time physically alone, I am lonely.

This causes all sorts of little problems. Including strain on your romantic relationships, as your SO becomes more and more central to your social world. As you can imagine, this is a recipe for countless problems. A kind of inertia appears, which makes it less and less appealing to leave the house. You want to see people less. You end up mixing up your work and leisure time (why are you working at 8pm? Why are you playing computer games at 10am? It doesn’t matter that’s why.)

There are ways to mitigate these of course. But they’re mostly just tricks. Like working in a coffee shop, or going for a walk in the mornings.

I think it comes down to the type of person you are. If you can get up every day, and crush work completely alone for a few hours, then use your extra leisure time alone productively, then keep an active social life (one good enough to compensate for the hours spent alone at home every day), then there are no trade offs. I am not. I’m easily distracted, I procrastinate, and mostly couldn’t be bothered to go out all the time to meet people.

Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by blaser-waffle on Friday December 06, 2019 @02:18PM (#21725058)
Man all of those points are spot on.

Working remotely is fantastic from a cost perspective but it is very isolating and lonely. It's hard to communicate with the rest of the team, and requires specific strategies to make things work.

It's easy to maintain discipline and inertia when you're in the office, and can't fuck off to your bedroom to nap or play with the Nintendo Switch.

Still a better choice, IMO, but absolutely has downsides, and I'd consider going back to in-person office work for the right role.

Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by lytefm on Sunday December 08, 2019 @06:29AM (#21735395)
> If you can get up every day, [..], then there are no trade offs.

I've been working remote-only for a couple of months now and did rather well on those parts: Doing sports in the morning, focussed working without slacking off - luckily, I can enter „work mode” as soon as I start my timer - and mostly spending the evening with friends or my SO.

However, I'm still feeling a growing sense of disconnectedness from my work and my colleagues. The feeling of „we're a team and building this together” over time changes into „annoying computer tells me to X”. We're having regular (video)calls, but the lack of social context definitely has a negative impact. 2-3 days of remote work would be optimal.

Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by ska on Thursday December 05, 2019 @12:51PM (#21714436)
As you note, there are a host of quality of life trade offs all wrapped up in this.

After briefly experiencing the 101 commute in bay area very early in my career, I decided I wasn't going to do it. Since then I've made a point to live close to work - which has affected both where I've lived and where I've worked, as I also decided I wasn't willing to live close to an office park in the middle of nowhere to make this work.

No regrets at all, although it has always involved some expense. I'm very aware I have been lucky in the options I've had though, this can be very difficult to arrange in some situations.

Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by minblaster on Thursday December 05, 2019 @12:36PM (#21714292)
I normally don’t like the time = money idea (not all hours are equally valuable), but for a commute it makes sense. You paid about 40 bucks to get back 1.5 prime hours of your life, plus the mental stress.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by tartoran on Thursday December 05, 2019 @01:25PM (#21714777)
This worked out for you great and there's no reason to feel guilty about it. I on the other hand choose to look at things differently. I spend 45 minutes on a buss to and from work and am eager to utilize the time for myself. I read, I draw and meditate. Another aspect that works out is living in a more peaceful neighborhood, nothing like the craziness in Manhattan. But, yes, sometimes the trade off is worth the money.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by vkou on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:55PM (#21715826)
Are you taking a luxury bus to work? Because on public buses, the only thing I can do without getting motion sick is listening to an audiobook or a podcast. I can't imagine drawing on it.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by paganel on Friday December 06, 2019 @04:21AM (#21720269)
Not the OP, but for what is worth I also get motion sick while riding the bus and sitting at the same time. The solution is to just not sit, I use one hand to grab the bus bar or whatever those things are called and the other hand to hold a magazine or pocket-sized book. The same goes for tramways or trolley-buses. Interestingly enough I can read just fine and sitting at the same time while riding a train.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by asdff on Friday December 06, 2019 @02:52AM (#21719968)
I used to get pretty motion sick too, especially growing up, but now I'm able to read novels fine on the bus and that thing feels like the wheels are square. Maybe a tolerance builds, who knows.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by tartoran on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:23PM (#21716089)
No, it's regular MTA service, not the greatest but gets me from point A to point B. I always pay attention to something other than the ride so I'm having a good time..
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by scarface74 on Thursday December 05, 2019 @11:11PM (#21719208)
Strangely enough, I drove an hour to work before and found the time to be relaxing, no one bothered me, I could listen to audiobooks or podcasts and it gave me time to decompress before I got home to my family.

As an introvert with learned emotional intelligence, I find it draining dealing with people all day and I for the most part liked the people I worked with.

When I worked less than 15 minutes away from work, I missed the down time. Especially since I had just gotten married, lived in an apartment and wasn’t use to coming home to three other people - wife and two (step)sons — and I love my family.

Now that we live in a much larger house, and my wife knows me well enough not to take it personally when so just want some alone time in our home gym, it’s better.

Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by asdff on Friday December 06, 2019 @02:50AM (#21719962)
Try an hour in LA and say it's relaxing lmao. Driving during rush hour is like going to war.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by scarface74 on Friday December 06, 2019 @08:21AM (#21721516)
I’m in Atlanta - not exactly the worlds greatest city for commuters. But once you hit the interstate, you just get in the lane that doesn’t veer off and drive straight.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by vinni2 on Thursday December 05, 2019 @11:56PM (#21719372)
I bike to work which takes me 30 minutes each way. I consider this as my relaxation, workout time and time to myself to think. Of course I also have podcasts running. Sometimes Audiobooks too but that requires more focus.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by asdff on Friday December 06, 2019 @02:51AM (#21719965)
If I had earbuds in all this time biking to work I'd be dead by now.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by vinni2 on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:28AM (#21723278)
I am lucky enough to live in a city with separate bike paths sometimes crossing the traffic.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by namibj on Friday December 06, 2019 @09:14AM (#21721879)
Bone cunductiin is a thing for about >=50$...
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by bsder on Thursday December 05, 2019 @08:19PM (#21718494)
> When I worked in Manhattan, I spent the extra $1,000/mo. to live within a couple blocks of work

A distance of merely 5 miles can take rent in Austin from $2000 to north of $3500. San Diego and LA have similar (and worse!) gradients in places.

The problem is your rent competition is 4 tech bros rooming together. That's an awful lot of money pushing the prices up.

Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by steelframe on Thursday December 05, 2019 @09:03PM (#21718672)
When I lived in Austin, I lived 10 miles from work and paid $1,300/mo mortgage for a new construction 2,000sqft house. The commute was 14 minutes at ~85mph, mostly on SH 45 in a sports car.

This was when SH 45 first opened up, so things hadn't yet built up around it to clog it up. Not sure what traffic looks like these days.

Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by bsder on Friday December 06, 2019 @08:43PM (#21727883)
SH45 is a suburb crossover belt and is quite significantly away from downtown where most of the jobs and issues are.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by copperx on Friday December 06, 2019 @04:40AM (#21720343)
How many decades ago was this? From what I've heard, things have become exponentially more expensive.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by steelframe on Friday December 06, 2019 @03:38PM (#21725751)
> How many decades ago was this?

Er... two. Now get off my lawn.

Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by blaser-waffle on Friday December 06, 2019 @02:19PM (#21725069)
And traffic exponentially worse
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by asdff on Friday December 06, 2019 @02:57AM (#21719982)
I don't think LA has quite the same gradient problem. Rents are high, but every neighborhood (aside from straight up mansion neighborhoods where there aren't any jobs anyway) is going to have the same $1800-2000 1br apartments. Sometimes that apartment is nicer in some places, others more dilapidated, but the price point seems to be pretty constant all over town.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by sjg007 on Thursday December 05, 2019 @11:39PM (#21719309)
It's that time vs money tradeoff. If your life circumstances change... and I don't know what your situation is, but say you have a few dependents and you want them in specific schools or to have a yard or whatever... then the equation changes.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by HammockWarrior on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:04PM (#21715245)
It's not necessarily an easy calculation to make since there are other subjective costs in choosing between two locations. I also decided to live very close to work and pay higher rent. It's not just higher rent though there is also greater noise, pollution, etc. I still think it outweighs the commute though. Commuting >1hr per day makes working feel much more like an awful grind to me.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by FisDugthop on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:57PM (#21715852)
Maybe the work day should be shorter instead.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by derg on Thursday December 05, 2019 @12:44PM (#21714373)
Yep. I found a more expensive place closer to work that didn't necessitate me taking public transit regularly (though it is always an option if I need it) so I walk to and from work, and while the walk is about half an hour each way, it's always done on my own time.

Throwing on some music or a podcast helps me unwind while the exercise does its thing to clear my head. I also save 100+ bucks a month on a transit pass too, though my rent increase is not as bad as 1000+ a month, I feel in your case it is definitely worthwhile.

Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by asdff on Friday December 06, 2019 @02:47AM (#21719952)
A lot of people don't even have the luxury to make this choice.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by TheGallopedHigh on Friday December 06, 2019 @03:02AM (#21719997)
I think that people are aware of this.
Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by aaron695 on Thursday December 05, 2019 @09:11PM (#21718703)
> I spent the extra $1,000/mo. to live within a couple blocks of work

My understanding of communing was people commute for longer for a 'better' house, but don't realise a 'better' house doesn't create happiness as much as a shorter commute.

Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by scarface74 on Thursday December 05, 2019 @11:18PM (#21719236)
It very much did for me. Even though I can find plenty of jobs in the burbs, I wouldn’t give up my larger house where my wife and I have plenty of space of our own.

I love spending time with my wife, but I’m also an introvert who really craves having my own space. Even when my parents come up and visit it isn’t intrusive since we have a guest suite downstairs.

Also the “better home” also means a better school district.

Re:Stress That Doesn't Pay: The Commuting Paradox (2004) [pdf] by sjg007 on Thursday December 05, 2019 @11:40PM (#21719313)
Well maybe for that person but their dependents might be happier..