> The USA behaves like Russia and China, they spy on foreigners, influence their elections, start unjustified wars for oil and generally have a very low regard for freedom and liberty outside of their soil.

That perfectly summarises the sentiment I get as a European in Europe, the UK and elsewhere in the world. The US is not different to any other bad actor. In fact the US looks increasingly worse to the rest of the world, which not only means that lots of other countries (and their leaders) lose respect for the US, but it also fuels a bigger sentiment that the Western values represented by the US are doomed to fail, because the US is visibly more plagued by social and criminal issues which you don't find elsewhere.

I'm curious what you think of European support for/collaboration with the USA vs a more self-interested Europe (not isolationist, just not directly aligned with any of USA/Russia/China)?

I haven't heard any clear views on that one way or the other, although I'm not sure the question itself makes perfect sense in terms of actual real world politics.

Europe would need to get an army to do that.

At least Americans are vocal about it. Here in Europe we seem to have just given up on freedom and liberty. Just look at how many limitations freedom of expression seems to have in various European countries. Imagine being fined for insulting the president (happened in France). Furthermore, European countries fight wars just like the Americans do (Libya), we bully poor countries into trade deals as well (EPA and Kenya). At least the Americans pretend...

I dunno if it's better to pretend. Europe used to rape and pillage Africa and America and pretended it was all to bring them freedom and liberty, eventually you'r reputation will proceed you.

China, perhaps. Russia is in the doldrums.

The 'problem' with China is that it's an ethnostate, or wants to be. So in a practical sense most Westerners are better off fixing their allegiances to the US, for better or worse.

At least then you can be part of the apparatus and not pre-emptively sidelined. I like some aspects of China vs. the US too, but China is for the Chinese, as they say.

Americans (and Europeans) are very used to the idea that no matter your race or creed you can be just as American as anyone else. We many times forget that not every country in the world acts this way. China being one of them.

Thats nonsense, even if you ignore the past problems we had with race and creed like the genocide of native Americans, enslavement of Africans.

Today Americas police and prison system has institutionalised racism. USA has camps they keep Mexicans in and separate their families.

China and Russia do these things too I know but that doesn't white wash what we do.

> Americans (and Europeans) are very used to the idea that no matter your race or creed you can be just as American as anyone else

As long as your race is white and your creed is western. I would say the same thing about china as long as you are Chinese.

Are you speaking of foreign citizens illegally gaining access to the United States? Which are placed in camps (call them concentration camps if you will but they in no way resemble what China is doing to the Uyghurs, i.e. a true concentration camp). And once in these camps they are processed for asylum, refugee status, etc? Yes, they may be stuck in these ‘horrifying’ camps which is not where they want to be. But they need to be vetted before entry into the US. And consider they are not being brainwashed against their ideals and religion as is happening in China.

Just because they're not as bad as China doesn't mean they're not horrendous. I mean, families are separated! How can you defend such a system? The USA is very rich, and has the means to provide a dignified process. I mean, you're a country of mostly immigrant-descendants, right?

Where are you from, that your hands are lily white? Trying to say that the US is equivalent to China because they both have concentration camps is completely ridiculous.

Even the children of illegal immigrants with unpopular religions in the US will have the legal and right to contribute to future US policies. China's treatment of the Uyghur and US treatment of illegal immigrants are both immoral, but they aren't by any means the same.

I almost did a spit take there. America's short history includes genocide, enslavement, de facto disenfranchisement, economic discrimination, and/or dramatically unequal jurisprudence levied against basically all non-Europeans.

You could say that this is somehow improved since the civil rights movement, and you'd be right, but its legacy as a de-facto patriarchal ethnostate looms large to this day and if this is the beacon of inclusion and harmony that the rest of the world aspires to that's a sorry situation indeed. The US line of "all men are created equal" should have come with a footnote explaining that "some are more equal than others."

I'm not sure I see this. They certainly are awful authoritarians and imperialists, but I haven't actually seen the ethnostate facism, or not in excess of what is in the Americas for example.

I would say most westerners would be better off not fixing their alliances to any imperialist machine, Russian, Chineese, or American. Even the EU is suspect, but its moderating influence against the worst possible facism still seems to be worth the costs and is worth reforming.

Having spent a decent amount of time in China, I think there are definitely a lot of falsehoods that are spread about it, but ethnostate-ish seems a pretty fair conclusion.

If you look at the way they're trying to integrate the outer provinces, and even just the way they view day-to-day and business interactions between Chinese and Westerners.

A Chinese billionaire in the US is no big deal, a US billionaire in China is unimaginable--they'd consider it out of order and I'd be surprised if it could even happen without them being cut down mid-journey. A contrived example maybe but success is reserved for the Han, not for outsiders.

Ever heard of a place called Xinjiang? Where there is a million people in actual concentration camps, right now?

I admit that some of what you say regarding wars and consideration of rights outside of US Soil are in decay of late, but please also inspect the extent to which the United States continues to protect the freedom and liberty of which you speak, generally, and some of the history involved in the current state of things.

Our current president is not the United States, despite his tendency to speak as if he is. I would argue he does not represent the main stream of American foreign policy and has continually fought against the majority opinion to protect institutions that preserve these freedoms and liberty (NATO / OTAN) and oppose actions that threaten said freedoms (annexation of crimea, etc).

September 11th had a huge impact on the country's view of civil liberties (rightly or wrongly is another discussion entirely) especially looking outward. While that might undermine the argument about America being a protector of liberties, I think it would be a mistake to believe that there is no belief held at all, or that America does not continue to fight for these beliefs. History is not something to rest on, but it does leave an indication of a country's intentions, I think.

>While that might undermine the argument about America being a protector of liberties, I think it would be a mistake to believe that there is no belief held at all, or that America does not continue to fight for these beliefs.

What are these "liberties" and "beliefs" of which you speak? I'm an American and think the place is run by lunatics and mafiosos and has been for my entire life. It's more obvious now, and the lunatics are vastly less competent and more ham handed and corrupt.

NATO was there to keep the Russians out and the Germans down. I don't support this organization at all in current year; it is simply a tool of US imperialism, and is spectacularly dangerous as US power fades and they add more shitty non-countries to it so some ding dong from Georgetown can win an award.

It's hard to engage in alternate history, but NATO as an organization was formed to ensure that European democratic governments remained that way immediately following World War II, and until the fall of the Berlin wall. Keeping the Russians out, as you say - that was critical to preserving liberal government in Europe. Article V is not just talk, despite the fallout from the war in Afghanistan. Only using recent history as a reference is not a good guide here.

Can you tell me more about keeping the Germans down? I'm not sure I follow, but I'm probably misinterpreting what you mean by "down".

"Lord Hastings Lionel Ismay was NATO’s first Secretary General, a position he was initially reluctant to accept. By the end of his tenure however, Ismay had become the biggest advocate of the organisation he had famously said earlier on in his political career, was created to “keep the Soviet Union out, the Americans in, and the Germans down.”"

Thanks.

>NATO was there to keep the Russians out and the Germans down. I don't support this organization at all in current year; it is simply a tool of US imperialism

Without NATO, the Baltics would probably already be a part of Russia again.

> I would argue he does not represent the main stream of American foreign policy and has continually fought against the majority opinion to protect institutions that preserve these freedoms and liberty (NATO / OTAN) and oppose actions that threaten said freedoms (annexation of crimea, etc).

The mainstream of American foreign policy is completely divorced from mainstream voters, which is one of the reasons for Trump's election: the foreign policy establishment has remained utterly impervious to American political sentiment for decades.

Most Americans are non-interventionist and veering on isolationist. They don't want to send foreign countries billions of dollars of foreign aid and they don't want endless US military expeditions. The US foreign policy establishment has ignored this at their own peril. They were able to neutralize Obama's foreign policy electoral platform; they haven't been so fortunate with Trump.

It's not very clear that American foreign policy has done anything to serve the interests of the average American in the past fifty years. It might have done great things for Europeans - I'm not a European, so I don't feel qualified to judge - but decades of American empire building have, if anything, hurt Americans, who have died in terrorist attacks caused by US foreign policy, been maimed in endless wars, and who have suffered from the economic globalization promoted by the foreign policy class. And frankly, I don't care about European interests or Crimean interests if they come at the expense of my interest.

> The USA behaves like Russia and China

It's truly insane how people are so poorly educated on current events, and their magnitudes, outside of polarizing media, that they sincerely believe this is true.

Probably worth keeping in mind that Russian, Chinese, and American people are not their governments. I can't speak for Russia and China, but at least in the USA plenty of people detest their government for all the reasons you've mentioned. Even the "good" years with Obama, people are looking back on that era more cynically than they did at the time.

I think this is largely a Western idea. IMO there is no dichotomy of 'evil Chinese government' and 'liberal silent majority of Chinese people'.

Yes there are restrictions on what people there can say about the party, but it's not North Korea--people say what they really think in private conversations, and from what I've seen they are mostly happy with their government.

Will that change if government performance changes? Possibly, but I don't think there's any noble suffering aspect to it.

Muslim massive concentration camps are Chinese, neither American or North Korea.

> The USA behaves like Russia and China, they spy on foreigners, influence their elections, start unjustified wars for oil and generally have a very low regard for freedom and liberty outside of their soil.

I'm sorry, but which of those do European nations not engage in as well?

Almost any European country that's not France, the UK or Russia.

I'd like to encourage you to look into some history books and current newspapers.

You're making quite a few assumptions, there. I'll disregard the ad hominem and wait patiently for recent examples of what you're referring to.

By recent, I'm willing to accept things in the past 30 years. Again, exclude France, the UK and Russia.

Belgium politicking in Rwanda basically caused a genocide. Germany has an active intelligence effort which reportedly compromised or intercepted Obama's mobile phone (intentionally). Europe has a very active intelligence and counter intelligence. They didn't all decide to magically get along and trust each other because WW2 ended.

Whataboutisms don't matter but if it makes you feel better:

> We wrote the game Americans are playing

I'm not trying to play the "what about" game, but I find it laughable for a European to get uppity about anyone else interfering in international politics or spying while in the same rant implying they don't partake.

> The USA behaves like Russia and China, they spy on foreigners, influence their elections, start unjustified wars for oil and generally have a very low regard for freedom and liberty outside of their soil.

This is a very naive and unrealistic take. In a world where nations like Russia and China are willing to play dirty to encroach on western democracies, you cannot simply counter by playing fair. Where do you think the world would be if Allied forces did not resort to spying and influence operations (which were crucial by the way)?

If you play dirty with your friends you will lose them, this isn't naive its the cold reality of relationships, co-operation requires trust and thats a hard requirement.

The cold reality of life is that some people on this planet are not looking to make friends no matter how hard we want them to.

I'm not sure if the US freedoms are just talk because all those successful companies which Spain wants to tax were started in US not in EU.

So Spain with it's $12B of export can risk imposing tariffs (it's essentially a tax at mostly US companies) compared to e.g. Germany which exports much more.

This is a non sequitur, personal freedom has very little to do with availability of VC level funding or an increase in startup investment.

I don't follow your point?

It's probably not about freedom since the same freedom in California doesn't seem to be able to create similar outcomes in, let's say, Alabama.

> Europeans like me like America because they are very vocal about freedom and liberty but we are waking up to the reality that it's all talk.

> The USA behaves like Russia and China, they spy on foreigners, influence their elections, start unjustified wars for oil and generally have a very low regard for freedom and liberty outside of their soil.

As a natural-born US citizen...Yeah I feel the same way. I feel like my government uses "freedom" the same way they use "think of the children" or "terrorism." To a lot of folks it seems like it's just a nebulous concept they can use to push a -- in my opinion unrelated -- political agenda. It's very sad to me.

It's pretty much every country though. All countries act in self interest with little regard to others it's just more noticeable with large countries.

It's crazy that "Nazi" China is engaging in an ethnic genocide right now, with massive concentration camps, death camps, mass graves, mass rape, mass sterilizations, mass re-education camps, and you would say "China is not the bad guys"

Really goes to show that Europe aren't "good guys" either. A European who could look at despotic China and their Uighur Holocaust and say "not bad guys" is not a good person themselves.

Lest we also forget that Russia is openly engaging in non-stop assassinations on European soil, caring so little for their soverignity that they announce to the world their power by murdering folks in the streets.

The false equivalence here is very sad. "Sure, Russia murders citizens in the streets and China literally has a Holocaust going, but America spies on people (just like us and with our help but shhh)!"

Do you think that individual countries (or the EU itself) counts as a comparable fourth entity in the USA-Russia-China trinity of 'global superpowers' (if that's the right term)?