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Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by beefield on Sunday November 24, 2019 @01:19AM (#21618755)
Funny. Article discussing hard problems of crypto and ignoring the elephants in the room. There is still no actual and relevant use case for crypto outside illegal transactions and gambli^H^H^H^H^Hinvestment purposes. The second elephant is that it brings monetary policy back to medieval times. Third is that in practice the whole concept of credit and ots role in money creation is ignored.
Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by lawn on Sunday November 24, 2019 @01:54AM (#21618866)
What's actually funny is how people still believe that no use cases exist. Here are just some examples:

* Uncensorable donations

* No way for a third party to freeze your payments (internet is full of horror stories of PayPal)

* Not all businesses can accept digital payments (marijuana stores or porn have trouble)

* Credit cards and payment processors take a 2-4% cut, of all transactions.

* You can use cryptocurrencies anonymously (to for example buy VPNs)

* It's possible to flee your country with some of your wealth intact (for example by converting to Bitcoin and crossing the Venezuela border)

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by cyphar on Sunday November 24, 2019 @02:32AM (#21618980)
Excluding the transaction fees problem you mentioned (which cryptocurrencies also have -- while it might not be 4% it's definitely not 0%), all of the uses you listed are really just one use-case -- uncensorable transactions. Don't get me wrong, that's a very good feature of cryptocurrencies (assuming that you have the ability to transform crypto back to real money on the other end), but you should be aware that your list of use-cases is only one element long.

I also want to point out that the use-case of "get your money out of the country" is not exactly perfect for Bitcoin because of how volatile it is (imagine if someone had to get their money out during December 2017).

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by lawn on Sunday November 24, 2019 @02:41AM (#21619008)
Good point.

I'd say anonymous payments is a little different from being uncensorable though. You'll stay anonymous even after the payment has gone through.

As for transaction fees, if we exclude Bitcoin which has really high fees, cryptocurrency fees are very small and almost negligible.[0]

Getting money out of the country is always relative. Even with Bitcoin's volatility it's much preferred to losing all your money. Either you cannot bring it with you through the border, or Venezuela's hyperinflation will eat it up in a flash.

[0]: https://whycryptocurrencies.com/cheaper_faster.html

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by mamon on Sunday November 24, 2019 @04:19AM (#21619284)
>> As for transaction fees, if we exclude Bitcoin which has really high fees, cryptocurrency fees are very small and almost negligible.[0]

That's probably because their popularity among users is also negligible. Problem with cryptocurrencess is that they don't scale well, with increased transaction volumes the fees and processing times also tend to rise until network's hashing power catches up.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by lawn on Sunday November 24, 2019 @04:40AM (#21619341)
Not exactly. Fees are high in Bitcoin because they want it to be. Bitcoin Cash could for example handle at least 20x of transaction throughput, with the same low fees.

Of course scaling is difficult. But Bitcoin isn't a good example of that.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by dunkelheit on Sunday November 24, 2019 @06:46AM (#21619804)
I'm struggling to understand if uncensorable transactions are a good thing (note: struggling not in a sense of "I actually think it is evil but let's hear your bullshit arguments so that I can easily debunk them", but in a sense of really being undecided). I am not a libertarian so I don't think that laws are just a useless form of violence. So how can uncensorable transactions be useful for a law-abiding citizen? One thing I can think of is when a transaction is in the gray area - you do it without asking anyone and then can argue that it is legitimate from a relative position of power, similar to asking for forgiveness instead of permission. Another thing is that existence of uncensorable money can push nation-states to adopt more equitable and just laws. But of course there are downsides in enabling crime and so on. So is uncensorable money a good thing in aggregate? I don't know.
Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by cyphar on Sunday November 24, 2019 @08:57AM (#21620437)
The most obvious example I can think of is when WikiLeaks (or pick your own politically-unfriendly charitable cause) had their PayPal and bank accounts frozen -- people donated using Bitcoin because the transactions couldn't be blocked by private companies. There are also several other examples of completely legal but unfriendly-to-large-corporations transactions -- in the several US states where marijuana has been legalised it is still difficult to conduct non-cash transactions with the proceeds because most payment processors are under federal jurisdiction thus making it possible for your (completely legal) funds to be seized.
Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by asdff on Monday November 25, 2019 @12:01AM (#21625596)
You are always at the mercy of your platform. But wikileaks could have continued accepting cash in the mail instead of being sidelined by a third party service. And at least with legal pot the tide is quickly shifting to make traditional banking easier; there was talk in LA about opening a municipal bank kinda for this purpose.

For most people, the utility of sticking your money into a volatile and slow system with no recourses is just never going to be there. A municipal credit union would be more useful and offer an out from private for-profit banking for most people.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by stale2002 on Sunday November 24, 2019 @10:09AM (#21620833)
Donations to WikiLeaks were blocked, even though they were never charged with any crime.

So, this is an example of where a fully law abiding citizen, had their transactions blocked, but the crypto payments weren't.

The legal Bitcoin payments weren't blocked, but the bank transactions were.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by dunkelheit on Sunday November 24, 2019 @01:41PM (#21622342)
Yes, wikileaks is a good example.
Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by jotakami on Sunday November 24, 2019 @09:06AM (#21620491)
Thank you for substantially raising the mean thoughtfulness of the comments in this thread.
Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by seibelj on Sunday November 24, 2019 @10:25AM (#21620913)
> I am not a libertarian so I don’t think that laws are just a useless form of violence.

Libertarians aren’t anti-law, they are pro-constitution. Libertarians are against the drug war, pro-marijuana legalization, against civil asset forfeiture, and trying to end the endless wars waged in the Middle East.

You will not find a better friend than a libertarian if you ever find yourself arrested or sued for any reason. Judges inventing laws is the antithesis of the belief system - libertarians follow the law as written.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by dunkelheit on Sunday November 24, 2019 @12:57PM (#21622057)
Yes, "libertarian" is probably not the right term - a quick skim of wikipedia shows that it is very broad with a varied attitude towards legitimacy of state power. What I specifically meant is that I don't see all restrictions on financial activity as a priori bad.

That said, why is the emphasis on constitution (BTW, do you mean any constitution or US constitution in particular)? Constitution is just a special kind of law after all and I can totally imagine libertarians claiming that it is inadequate, pushing to change it and make it more aligned with their principles.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by seibelj on Sunday November 24, 2019 @01:37PM (#21622319)
I am specifically speaking about the USA as I am a libertarian from the USA, but the libertarian ideology is universal. It has a rich history of thinkers and writers if you want to explore more. Basically libertarians begin with the idea that the rights of the individual are the most important, and government should be restricted from infringing on individuals.

In the USA we have the Bill of Rights that protects each person from government overreach, such as the 1st amendment which protects freedom of speech, and the 5th amendment against testifying against yourself.

The government however often passes laws that violate these rights, and then the courts have to overturn laws that are unconstitutional because they violate our rights.

I am of the opinion that the government is a very dangerous entity with unlimited power and ability to harm citizens, so we should always be skeptical of all laws passed and work as much as possible to limit the power of government.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by sireat on Sunday November 24, 2019 @06:53AM (#21619836)
Those are real use cases.

However the adoption is severely lacking.

The problem is that it has gotten worse not better. There has not been a good use case for a Joe NormalCitizen for crypto in a while.

Anecdata: I first mined BTC in 2011 and used BTC quite a bit in 2013 to buy bunch of online and offline services. It was relatively painless since I had my own BTC. (Also it was really pseudo-anonymous since I was only using mining rewards and didn't reuse addresses).

Since I do not own any significant crypto anymore there is no use case for me anymore.

If I want do something shady, I'd have the problem of onramp KYC etc.

If I want to do something legal, crypto costs including onramp is less convenient/costs more than normal SEPA/CC etc.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by dorgo on Sunday November 24, 2019 @11:02AM (#21621185)
>If I want do something shady, I'd have the problem of onramp KYC etc.

Is it still possible to circumwent KYC by mining? Or is it too expensive?

Sounds like an advantage of PoW over PoS

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by qes on Sunday November 24, 2019 @01:05PM (#21622111)
> Is it still possible to circumwent KYC by mining?

Not really. You can't earn much at all mining any coins without significant and reoccurring capital investment.

There are de-centralized exchanges like Bisq that you can use without KYC.

Also Monero has true anonymity so while you might need a KYC onramp to get into crypto, once your value is on the Monero chain it's anonymous, transactions cannot be followed, balances can't be seen (without permission).

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by DennisP on Sunday November 24, 2019 @08:43AM (#21620355)
We can't have real adoption until we have the scaling to support it.
Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by Avamander on Sunday November 24, 2019 @08:45AM (#21620363)
> Credit cards and payment processors take a 2-4% cut, of all transactions.

Most payments regular people make every day are sub three-digit. On those payments 2-4% in the US is much cheaper than the current Bitcoin (and similar) transaction fees. That means crypto is rather unusable for most people. I won't even start talking how Bitcoin doesn't compete at all with European SEPA Instant payments for most use-cases.

The only use crypto currently has is censorship resistance, pseudonymity and illegal purposes.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by lawn on Sunday November 24, 2019 @03:24PM (#21623088)
> On those payments 2-4% in the US is much cheaper than the current Bitcoin (and similar) transaction fees.

Bitcoin is a horrible example. Bitcoin Cash for example have fees of less than a cent.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by ppf on Monday November 25, 2019 @05:50AM (#21626965)
It's probably so cheap because no-one wants to use a chain that is so susceptible to a 51% attack.
Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by lawn on Monday November 25, 2019 @10:14AM (#21628760)
No, it's so cheap because Bitcoin has full blocks and people have to outbid each other to get their transaction through. Bitcoin Cash could handle at least 20x the volume of Bitcoin, with the same low fees.

It's not Bitcoin Cash that's special. It's Bitcoin, but in a bad way. Even Monero has very low fees with better capacity for example.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by ppf on Monday November 25, 2019 @10:26AM (#21628883)
If that's the case, why is the transaction count per time period for Bitcoin Cash about 20% of Bitcoin's? On the other hand, it's a significant problem that Bitcoin Cash has about 2% of the hashrate of Bitcoin. Any sensible person would not put any significant value into Bitcoin Cash when such a small percentage of Bitcoin miners could reorg the chain.
Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by newguy1234 on Sunday November 24, 2019 @01:33AM (#21618795)
One legitimate use case for cryptocurrency is so you can transact with individuals who do not have bank accounts. Cryptocurrency allows anyone in the world to get a cryptocurrency "bank account" and that "bank account" allows the individual to transact freely in society. It is important for a free society.
Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by unityByFreedom on Sunday November 24, 2019 @01:57AM (#21618873)
Cash? Otherwise, for digital, who are we talking about, exactly? What country doesn't have banks?

If you can't get a bank account it's unlikely your basic needs are going to be met by a stranger you've never met.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by input_sh on Sunday November 24, 2019 @03:36AM (#21619161)
Here's a practical example: due to US sanctions, no Iranian citizen can have a Visa or a MasterCard. Assuming they've acquired cryptocurrencies somehow, it's their only way of paying for digital goods.

(assuming, of course, that the government doesn't shut down the Internet, as it did just days ago: https://ooni.org/post/2019-iran-internet-blackout/)

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by lawn on Sunday November 24, 2019 @02:04AM (#21618898)
There are 1.7 billion adults in the world who are unbanked. 420 million of them have internet access. You can find them in countries all over the world. For example USA have 18 million and France have 3 million who don't have a bank account.

It's not just poor people in countries without banks who have these problems. Even rich porn stars have had their bank accounts closed (for being porn stars) and people in the marijuana business too.

Some more info here: https://whycryptocurrencies.com/for_the_unbanked.html

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by green1 on Sunday November 24, 2019 @06:25AM (#21619724)
From that page:

> There is no KYC process.

How does an unbanked put their paper money into their cryptocurrency account without a KYC process? (Please don't say trust a random third party stranger in a pub offering cryptocurrency at an exorbitant markup.)

> There are no fees for opening or having an account

I've never paid a fee to open or have a bank account, but how does an unbanked put their paper money into their cryptocurrency account without paying a fee (or an exorbitant markup)?

> You don’t need to trust a third party with your money.

How does an unbanked get their paper money into their cryptocurrency account without trusting a third party?

> There’s no need to visit a financial institution. As long as you have internet access you always have access to your money and can make payments.

Online and phone banking existed decades before Bitcoin was created.

> Around 60% said they had too little money to use a bank account

Yet they'd somehow have enough to put into cryptocurrency account?

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by dorgo on Sunday November 24, 2019 @11:22AM (#21621342)
>How does an unbanked get their paper money into their cryptocurrency account without trusting a third party?

Mining perhaps?

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by ativzzz on Sunday November 24, 2019 @02:25PM (#21622652)
How do you expect someone who doesn't have access to banking to set be able to set up a mining rig?

I'm not saying having a bank account is necessary, but the life conditions that prevent bank access (poverty, homelessness, addictions, abuse, violence, etc) will certainly prevent anyone from mining/

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by lawn on Sunday November 24, 2019 @03:19PM (#21623054)
There are many examples of Venezuelans doing just this.
Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by dunkelheit on Sunday November 24, 2019 @02:01PM (#21622492)
> How does an unbanked put their paper money into their cryptocurrency account without a KYC process? (Please don't say trust a random third party stranger in a pub offering cryptocurrency at an exorbitant markup.)

One possibility is that they can receive their income directly in cryptocurrencies.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by bitcoinbutter on Sunday November 24, 2019 @02:15AM (#21618940)
Yes, one big issue is that payment processors are incredibly centralized and massive. These two combined means that they are incentivized to de-risk their platforms and stop serving customers they determine to be "high risk".

"High risk" is often mistaken for illegal, but that's incorrect. Many industries that are completely legal are still viewed as high risk and become deplatformed. Small companies are at the highest risk of being deplatformed.

Crypto currency allows anyone to send and receive money, without depending on the blessing of a third party which can decide whether or not to serve your business. Access to the financial system is not seen as a basic human right.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by notahacker on Sunday November 24, 2019 @07:03AM (#21619889)
There are 0 adults in the world who are unbanked but have access to a mining rig or card payments to buy cryptoassets.

By an interesting coincidence, 0 is also the number of unbanked people who should risk the money they need to eat on unregulated, complicated and easily stolen intangible financial assets which wealthy foreigners invented to print themselves money.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by jki275 on Sunday November 24, 2019 @12:44PM (#21621966)
You'd be surprised by the existence of m-pesa then, which has revolutionized finance among the unbanked in Africa.

m-pesa isn't a cryptocurrency in the same mold that bitcoin is, but it's electronic money for the unbanked that you're arguing can't exist.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by Nursie on Sunday November 24, 2019 @02:33PM (#21622715)
m-pesa fits virtually none of what the parent said about cryptocurrency.
Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by jki275 on Sunday November 24, 2019 @03:18PM (#21623050)
The point of the OP was that he believes electronic money cannot benefit the unbanked.

It's wrong. The exact details of bitcoin aren't the right thing for it, but there are many cryptocurrencies that are more like m-pesa in their use requiremnts than they are bitcoin.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by notahacker on Sunday November 24, 2019 @03:44PM (#21623244)
No, my point is that unlike M-Pesa, cryptocurrencies do not have a trained, regulated agent in every village who will reliably exchange them for local cash at a fixed rate. The centralisation is fundamental to its success - probably only the mobile providers or maybe a money transfer network like Western Union could have pulled it off.

M-Pesa would not have succeeded in helping the unbanked if people living in remote villages needed to set up a mining rig or navigate to Coinbase.com and enter debit card details to obtain it. There'd be no reliable way for most unbanked people to get it or get rid of it. And since the unbanked world needs the network of regulated agents offering cash conversion and really can't afford for their assets to be backed by speculator optimism rather than legal tender in a trusted party's bank account or vault, there's really not much advantage in building that trusted centralised entity's database in something as computationally expensive as a blockchain. Certainly it's not lack of blockchain technology that's been the obstacle to people from creating more electronic money transfer service for the unbanked.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by Nursie on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @02:38AM (#21636315)
> The point of the OP was that he believes electronic money cannot benefit the unbanked.

Not really, if you read what you replied to it says that none of the unbanked have cards to buy it with, and that they don't need to be risking what little they have on "unregulated, complicated and easily stolen intangible financial assets which wealthy foreigners invented to print themselves money."

That doesn't describe M-Pesa, but it does describe cryptocurrency.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by xrftghvb on Sunday November 24, 2019 @12:41PM (#21621942)
Also there is tons of people with bank accounts, but who have debts.

Any income is instantly frozen and collected. Even when they want to eventually pay debt, lack of liquidity prevents them from work.

They can only use cash, or bank accounts of friends, or things like Revolut or PayPal (bailiff doesn't know about them because they operate in different country).

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by mrb on Sunday November 24, 2019 @01:51AM (#21618857)
«There is still no actual and relevant use case for crypto»

What a short-sighted view. Perhaps no use case for you personally. There are 7.7 billion people in this world who have vastly different life circumstances, some of them certainly need crypto to make their lives better. In no particular order: hyperflation, financial censorship, instant low-fee international transfers, etc

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by algerd on Sunday November 24, 2019 @05:19AM (#21619481)
>> Hyperinflation Human competence the main cause. >> Instant low-fee international transfers We have it already >>financial censorship Depends firstly on political system. If you have undemocratic government crypto won't help you anyway, because it will be banned or controlled.

Practice is the criterion of truth. Can provide cases, when crypto solves problem better than existing instruments?

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by solveit on Sunday November 24, 2019 @07:04AM (#21619900)
I have to say crypto seems much easier to solve than bad politics. If you'll grant this, your argument hinges on crypto being useless under an oppressive government, because it will be controlled. I find this implausible given that no government in history has ever really succeeded in fully controlling black markets. Indeed, the trend is that the more dysfunctional the government, the more power the black markets have.
Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by koheripbal on Sunday November 24, 2019 @09:35AM (#21620644)
As long as coins are designed as a store of value rather than an actual currency, they will have limited use-cases.

People need to get over the concept of inflation. Inflation is GOOD.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by whb07 on Monday November 25, 2019 @09:40AM (#21628458)
Can you describe to me how inflation is good for a household? The literature you've probably seen is ex post facto about inflation trying to convince themselves and the world that the inflationary behaviors that were done are "good".

"So every year, your savings get watered down and you lose wealth", is not what one wants to hear.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by koheripbal on Monday November 25, 2019 @02:22PM (#21631720)
Inflation is good for an ECONOMY because it ensures that currency is not sitting on the side lines, but being actively invested wherever possible. ...so the velocity of money is increased, and hence volatility is decreased.

The negative impacts of volatility on the economy are very well documented.

Inflation has zero impact on a household as long as their savings are kept in assets other than cash.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by whb07 on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @10:12AM (#21638904)
So unless you're hiding bags of gold underneath your bed as "saving" then that money is going to circulate across the economy naturally as investment. But it is sort of weird that any single person/group can fully know what is best for all individual actors in an economy (not possible).

Lastly, to say that a currency losing 99% of its value over time is not damaging to a household is either ignorance or corruption. The lower tiers of society furthest away from the money printer are the ones that are impacted the most. Coincidentally, I'm going to assume you want to help these tiers the most but end up hurting them.

There is something called the Cantillon effect, where those closest (banks, those connected to the gov) to the "stream" of money get benefited while those furthest away (regular people) get hurt.

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by seibelj on Sunday November 24, 2019 @10:29AM (#21620942)
Inflation is good for governments who want to reduce their debt obligations denominated in their own currency, and it encourages economic activity.

It’s bad if you have little money, your wages don’t raise automatically with inflation, and every year what little you have has been reduced in value 1 to 10%.

I as a homeowner with a government-subsidized 30 year fixed rate mortgage love it however, as what I pay for my asset each month is less and less as inflation helps me and the tax payers finance my wealth creation. Renters, not so much!

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by Nursie on Sunday November 24, 2019 @02:34PM (#21622725)
It's irrelevant if you have little money. "The poor" don't give a fuck about inflation.
Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by oraphalous on Sunday November 24, 2019 @01:27AM (#21618782)
Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by platz on Sunday November 24, 2019 @01:43AM (#21618834)
How long ago did we almost have a hard fork?

How long ago were the exchanges found to be manipulating prices fraudulently?

As if crypto is immune to systemic issues.

It's not a closed system after all, is it?

Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by int_19h on Sunday November 24, 2019 @04:12AM (#21619268)
Illegal transactions sound like a perfectly good use case to me, considering the laws that so many people have to contend with.
Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by Gatsky on Sunday November 24, 2019 @02:15AM (#21618941)
Sure, those are all good points, but cryptocurrency has one special, virtually unique characteristic in the current era - newness. We should cut it a bit of slack.
Re:Hard Problems in Cryptocurrency: Five Years Later by Findeton on Sunday November 24, 2019 @02:03AM (#21618895)
So you're envious that the crooks are not using the dollar anymore?