News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by soapboxrocket on Thursday November 14, 2019 @03:20PM (#21539005)
What I find so interesting about Vice Ventures is how she has drawn a hard line on the weapons industry.
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by jay_kyburz on Thursday November 14, 2019 @03:39PM (#21539156)
Yeah, its not that they have no moral compass, its just that it points in a different direction to many people. I don't have a problem with sex tech or esports but want nothing to do with addiction.

I wonder if they would also fund email spammers if there was money in it.

Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by mtnGoat on Thursday November 14, 2019 @04:18PM (#21539542)
Yet sex/porn and esports are both addicting. How does that math add up?

Games maybe not so much by nature, but the publishers are trying everything they can to increase your time in game.

Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by duskwuff on Thursday November 14, 2019 @04:35PM (#21539694)
"Esports" typically refers to professional competitive gaming, not to video games in general -- the focus is on viewership, not participation. There are some related side industries which might fit that description (like esports betting sites), but the industry itself isn't particularly "addictive", at least no more than traditional sports.

The classification of sex and pornography as "addictive" has been controversial, and all I'll say about that is that there is no scientific consensus that they should be considered as such.

Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by mtnGoat on Thursday November 14, 2019 @04:51PM (#21539870)
ok, i can get on board with the esports part.

Porn, you can call it anecdotal, but over a decade in that industry taught me, its certainly addictive for some, and is are some very manipulative marketing going on by the smarter companies. But i do see the opposing argument, people get addicted to all kinds of strange things and nothing about porn per se is addicting. it's that ending they are addicted to, not the content.

Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by rurp on Thursday November 14, 2019 @09:01PM (#21541616)
I used the work in the gaming[0] industry and did my best to read up on addiction, both in general terms and related to gambling. One of the main takeaways I found was that the addiction rates are surprisingly similar across different vices. It doesn't matter if the vice is gambling, porn, alcohol, shopping, or whatever -- some low single digit percent of the population is likely to get dangerously addicted, a somewhat larger group will spend way too much money but not otherwise disrupt their life, and the vast majority of people will treat it like just another type of recreation.

I really wish our society could take all of the energy that goes into criminalizing and stigmatizing vice industries and instead use it to offer help to people who are dangerously addicted. Just think of how much free therapy, rehab, and drug research could be funded by the tens of billions of dollars that the drug war has cost.

[0] Gaming is the industry term for gambling

Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by mensetmanusman on Thursday November 14, 2019 @08:32PM (#21541468)
People say they get addicted to porn, what does science have to do with what they say?
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by duskwuff on Thursday November 14, 2019 @09:03PM (#21541630)
Science says that there is a distinction between the colloquial definition of "addicted" and the technical definition of a physiological / psychological addiction.

Many people will also say that a delicious food, an entertaining game, or an enjoyable TV show is "addictive", but these do not actually constitute addictions either.

Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by mensetmanusman on Thursday November 14, 2019 @09:42PM (#21541804)
Sure, but science doesn’t say that, per se, because science is about quantitative measurement. We have no machine that can measure addiction.

People with scientific backgrounds hypothesize all the time, and they have machines that can make brain scan images, but we aren’t very close to being able to measure addiction on a numerical scale.

The best we have is listening to people, maybe analogous to how we listen to people when they believe they are a different gender, etc. since there is no quantitative measure for ‘feelings’ (see Olympic male/female athlete controversies, et al.)

We may get there some day...

Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by random42 on Thursday November 14, 2019 @11:34PM (#21542226)
> science is about quantitative measurement

Hard sciences may be, but there are quite a soft science domains such as psychology. We do not yet know exact nature of addiction, but psychological, environmental impacts have not been ruled out, by most scientists.

Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by jay_kyburz on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:57AM (#21543647)
I believe we do have machines that can measure substance addictions. You can certainly measure how sick they get from withdrawals.
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by ZephyrP on Friday November 15, 2019 @11:32AM (#21546205)
I actually just happened to be hanging out downtown and found myself at a convention for people devoted to answering just that question!

DeltaFOSB is a gene transcription factor and is the precursor for the development of all forms of what is clinically called "addiction". However what the other commentators suggested [food is not addictive] is not actually true, it has a measurable affect here. In fact, Delta-FOSB can be and often is used as a biomarker of addiction in patients who are already deceased (and can have their brains broken open).

Now, as to the question of addictiveness, nobody mentioned anything about pornography there, but I did hear an interesting anecdote about the raw power that certain addictions have that clearly isn't present in pornography; Delta FOS-B accumulates in the ventral tagamental area and nucleus accumbens, two central regions of the brain, and many drugs have the action of creating floods of FOS-B precursors there, for example, this effect is so strong in heroin addicts, that they nearly always throw up upon recent re-exposure (sometimes newer Methamphetamine addicts as well) where the mechanism here is the flood of FOSB, which an outer region (she had mentioned but I have already forgotten which) interprets as "poisoning". So while it may be true that pornography is "addicting" - when is the last time you saw someone throw up when they looked at pornography (modulo ordinary "disgust").

What was doubly interesting was that she said the change in dopamine regulation (meaning the introduction of new dopamine-like substances + the change in the rate that your body "reuptakes" dopamine) in the most powerful addictions -- benzodiazapines and opiates, aren't actually that high, and compared with drugs like methamphetamine and cocaine aren't much different from marijuana.

It's this secondary affect that creates these changes in reasoning and reward structure with these drugs (she also mentioned that both have "withdrawal", which while technically unrelated to addiction is extremely painful and sometimes life-threatening).

However, to be fair, it was repeatedly stressed that the "secondary" affect was more than just Delta-FOSB. There were changes in signaling, new kinds of peptides that unaddicted people can't produce (???), something about phosphoration of camp ("new notes on camp") and bunch of change to "Dendritic Spiny Structures".

Among the living, questions like "drug-use reinstatement likelihood", "place conditioning preference" (the more addictive the drug, the more you want to use it in a safe, known place), increase in use over time, etc. are how this stuff is generally measured with reasonable economics.

Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by perl4ever on Sunday November 17, 2019 @11:27PM (#21561876)
I don't know how professionals define it, but it seems to me logical to define an addiction as something which people cannot stop even when it leads to financial, health, or other difficulty that affects normal functioning and/or relationships. That is, the short-term need for a fix overrides universal parts of living a healthy life.

This is not precise, but it seems like an appropriate metric. It's basically the same as defining mental illness in general vs. harmless eccentricity.

Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by smt88 on Thursday November 14, 2019 @08:51PM (#21541571)
> sex/porn and esports are both addicting

Sex is not similar to alcohol, tobacco, or pharmaceutical addictions.

You can have orgasms alone without purchasing anything. There's also debate about whether you can be addicted to sex. 1) It's a normal part of our lifecycles, 2) there's no withdrawal effect after you get off of it, and 3) it's a convenient way to pathologize bad behavior.

E-sports are game competitions, not video games in and of themselves. You can be no more addicted to them than you can be to the NBA.

Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by prvc on Friday November 15, 2019 @01:12AM (#21542654)
Exactly right, it's merely that they approve of the things that they are funding on some level.
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by curiousgal on Thursday November 14, 2019 @03:54PM (#21539281)
If it's sex or drugs or any sort of addiction, the user is victim. With weapons, other people are the victim.
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by nokcha on Thursday November 14, 2019 @04:14PM (#21539491)
>If it's sex or drugs or any sort of addiction, the user is victim. With weapons, other people are the victim.

At least in the US, a majority of deaths by firearm are suicides. And as for potentially addictive drugs (e.g., alcohol), the user can cause great harm to other people, as in drunk driving.

Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by ummwhat on Thursday November 14, 2019 @05:39PM (#21540284)
No. A plurality of the gun deaths are suicide (%33). Accidents and homicide add up to more.
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by njarboe on Thursday November 14, 2019 @06:15PM (#21540574)
I don't think that is correct. This article[1] cites the CDC as stating that gun deaths in 2017 were 60% suicides, 37% murder and 3% other.

[1]https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/16/what-the-da...

Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by danShumway on Thursday November 14, 2019 @07:56PM (#21541279)
I think you have your stats reversed.

Fivethirtyeight says about 2/3 of gun deaths are suicides. Around 1/3 are homicides. A surprisingly small percentage (to me) are classified as accidents.[0]

[0]: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gun-deaths/

Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by AngryData on Thursday November 14, 2019 @09:11PM (#21541660)
Im not entirely surprised accidents are low, the places with the most guns have strong gun culture who have learned and put into practice gun safety from a young age. Many of the older folks have taken shooting classes or done shooting sport while in school, many of the younger generation have taken hunter safety courses, and of course military service people throughout the entire time, and all would teach basic gun safety. You will be kicked off any range for not being safe and most anyone who owns guns will very quickly correct anybody not being safe.

The amount of people who know nothing about guns and never shot one under proper supervision and then go out and purchase a firearm without researching anything are extremely low, so accidents remain pretty low.

Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by catalogia on Thursday November 14, 2019 @11:29PM (#21542210)
Basic firearm safety instruction is part of it, and the other part is the general mechanical reliability of firearms. Modern firearms, as a general rule, will not fire themselves unless somebody or something interacts with them. Basic firearm safety instruction is often a short dogmatic set of rules[0] primarily focused on making sure people don't interact with the gun in a way that makes it likely to go off unintended. These two factors work together to keep people relatively safe from accidents around firearms most of the time.

There are some guns for which the basic dogmatic instruction is probably insufficient. Notably glocks; in some circles "glock" has become a verb, wherein to "glock yourself" means to accidentally shoot yourself in the leg with your glock while holstering or upholstering it. More specialized training can reduce the chances of this happening, but for this specific scenario and some others like it, the standard basic safety instructions fall a bit short in my opinion.

[0] One example: http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/safe_sur/acts-tpto-eng.ht... Other rulesets often have the same ideas worded in slightly different ways.

Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by im3w1l on Thursday November 14, 2019 @05:16PM (#21540079)
At the risk of stating the obvious: there is presently no war on US soil.
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by mensetmanusman on Thursday November 14, 2019 @08:33PM (#21541472)
Society is a victim if there is a drug overdose and society has to pay for the cleanup.
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by sdinsn on Thursday November 14, 2019 @04:13PM (#21539478)
Unless you use a weapon for self defense.
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by homonculus1 on Friday November 15, 2019 @12:43PM (#21546898)
Self-defense doesn't exist according to HN. The SFPD should be good enough for anybody, which means all private guns are just murder waiting to happen.
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by colejohnson66 on Friday November 15, 2019 @09:10PM (#21550503)
I think you’ll find that the political diversity here is quite wide. There’s people here against guns and people here who believe people have a right to own them.
[dead]
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by AmericanChopper on Thursday November 14, 2019 @03:40PM (#21539163)
Their mission statement is investing in industries "facing funding and/or regulatory challenges because of social disapproval", but the unstated (or perhaps implied) political angle is they are focusing on industries that society doesn't approve of, but they do. Otherwise weapons, fossil fuels and surveillance tech would be on their list too. The obvious response to that is that those industries face disapproval because of a perceived harm to society, but all of the industries they list face disapproval for the exact same reason.
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by klyrs on Thursday November 14, 2019 @03:48PM (#21539231)
I suspect that weapons producers don't have a shortage of investment opportunities. Their customers include militaries and police departments. And if it's "just politics," the finance industry skews right and the NRA is one of the most powerful lobbies in the US. If ivestors are distancing themselves from the gun industry, I'd assume that it's good ol' fiscal conservatism: mass shootings are on the rise and they don't want to touch that liability with a 10' pole.
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by flyingfences on Thursday November 14, 2019 @03:58PM (#21539318)
Big, established arms companies have decent financial prospects. Firearms/accessories businesses in the startup space (or just small, local businesses) are frequently cold-shouldered out of opportunities.
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by beat on Thursday November 14, 2019 @05:14PM (#21540048)
What we think of as startup-style capital, the kind that goes into software, is a hard sell for firearms manufacturers, because it's very difficult to get an edge, compared to software. Manufacturing is expensive, with a lot of up-front costs, and can't easily be scaled without a lot more up-front costs. Meanwhile, established deep-pockets competitors can just duplicate a successful product.

This is really about boutique/niche product manufacturing. There's usually not a reasonable path to becoming a billion-dollar company, at any degree of risk. That's what "startup capital" wants... to get in on the ground floor of a billion dollar company. They want that 100x return. You're not going to get a 100x return manufacturing a better rifle scope or a boutique handgun.

This is what banks are for. Start business on scraped capital, show real customers and real profit, then go to a traditional bank with a traditional business plan for scaling capital.

Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by AmericanChopper on Thursday November 14, 2019 @04:47PM (#21539836)
Industries dominated by a small number of very large players are typically what you'd call 'ripe for disruption'. Banking has never had a shortage of funding either, but banking and financial startups have only recently started to influence the industry. I didn't hear about anybody turning down Stripe because "finance sector is overfunded".
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by yabadabadoes on Thursday November 14, 2019 @05:49PM (#21540368)
Stripe went into the payment gateway business, competing with perhaps 100 pretty small players for the side the big players don't want.

Make a consumer product banks can copy and try to prove its viable and I think you'll get that feedback.

Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by AmericanChopper on Thursday November 14, 2019 @06:18PM (#21540596)
Stripe, N26, SBV, Square, Brex, Monza... and many others all compete directly with banks.

That’s also very tangential to the fact that while some areas of banking, finance or weapons dealing may be dominated by large institutions, there’s plenty of other areas that are not. Stripe is a perfect example in how they started out by capturing a retail market that was outside the core business of the large players. Nobody would look at their value prop and say “finance is overfunded”, because that ignores what area they were actually trying to compete in.

If you wanted to make a startup that looked to innovate retail weapons trade, then no investor is going to tell you “you’ll never compete with Raytheon”, because no matter how big they are, they don’t compete in retail weapons trade. What they would more likely tell you is something like “we don’t invest in that vice industry”.

Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by Vector919 on Thursday November 14, 2019 @05:40PM (#21540292)
I think that's only true when the start up costs are relatively low, right? The airline industry also has a small number of very large players, but I don't know if we should also consider it ripe for disruption
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by AmericanChopper on Thursday November 14, 2019 @06:00PM (#21540448)
The airline industry has already been massively disrupted by innovative startups and new investment. Startups have drastically changed the business of selling flights and travel services to consumers, the rise of budget airlines has completely changed the competitive landscape of that industry, and there’s countless ways that outside innovations have found their way into the supply chains of the big players.
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by jay_kyburz on Thursday November 14, 2019 @03:44PM (#21539203)
I think your comment is interesting because it demonstrates how inadequate the left wing - right wing view of the world is. A lot of "left wing" energy is spent trying to kill the gambling and nicotine industry.
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by flyingfences on Thursday November 14, 2019 @03:55PM (#21539292)
I guess I mean the "popular left/right" more than the "establishment left/right" especially when it comes to startups and unconventional investing.
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by namewasmypw on Thursday November 14, 2019 @04:04PM (#21539399)
Not really. The left tends to oppose government restrictions, as opposed to the center and center-left (liberals).
[dead]
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by namewasmypw on Thursday November 14, 2019 @05:47PM (#21540348)
Anarchists are not asking for any of those things. Liberals aren't leftists.
Re:Vice Ventures is investing in taboo industries that other... by mendelmaleh on Thursday November 14, 2019 @06:09PM (#21540530)
Todays leftists seem more communist than anarchist.