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Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by LinuxBender on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @11:25AM (#21515321)
I'm sure nobody will like this idea, but cameras and microphones should have a physical switch that kills the power and data feed, in my opinion. So you would have airplane mode and trade-secret sharing mode. Power should be diverted to an LED so that people can see you have disabled camera and microphone.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by xyzzy_plugh on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @05:17PM (#21518789)
Jeff Bezos wanted this (though unsure if it was his idea) for the original Amazon Echo. The "mute" button was originally transparent, revealing the circuitry of the switch, enabling users to visually verify that the circuitry of the button severed the microphone in order to power the red mute LED.

I don't think it's that nobody _likes_ the idea, I think the problem is that very few people really care. You see this in products everywhere. Rough edges sacrificing the user experience which could be technically solved but are punted in favor of More Important Things.

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by kardos on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @07:15PM (#21519715)
> Jeff Bezos wanted this (though unsure if it was his idea) for the original Amazon Echo.

What happened to this feature? If Bezos wanted this it would be there.

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by zaroth on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @07:51PM (#21520022)
That’s an excellent point. I see zero reason to believe this story is true. Sounds more like urban legend.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by xyzzy_plugh on Saturday November 16, 2019 @04:43AM (#21551829)
I'm happy to show you the prototype.

I don't know why it was axed, but my best guess is that it aesthetically looked pretty bad, and it was probably a pain to produce at high yields. Also, I can imagine users finding it more confusing than an obvious well-labelled button.

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by jeromegv on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @09:55PM (#21520804)
Indeed, let's stop giving credit to him if he didn't actually do it. Alexa and those amazon devices are hardly a model of privacy.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by mrlala on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @11:03PM (#21521084)
>Alexa and those amazon devices are hardly a model of privacy

How so?

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by krageon on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @03:39AM (#21522110)
Uploads all of your speech to a company centered in one of the more privacy-hostile regimes, is strictly for-profit, has a set of policies subject to change at any time, policies are hard to read and therefore difficult to track changes in, unclear when the microphone is truly on and uploading. The list actually goes on but I feel like you get the idea.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by kmlx on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @04:17AM (#21522326)
"one of the more privacy-hostile regimes"

i assume you're referring to the West/EU/USA here. i share your skepticism, especially around the EU's own GDPR. "government agencies and law enforcement", as well as "activities under the scope of Chapter 2, Title V of the Treaty on European Union" are exempted from GDPR.

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by krageon on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @04:56AM (#21522514)
I am referring to the US. I have never received any actual proof that the theoretical separation of a datacenter from the mother US-based company will make it immune from the US' draconian surveillance laws, therefore I should assume that it's not trustworthy. Given past experience, I think this is a reasonable stance to take.

The GDPR isn't very topical here, because big conglomerates have been violating it since it's inception. Until the teeth have been enforced, we have to assume that a US company is not only shovelling all of your data to every government agency (which would happen even with the GDPR being followed, as you say) that blinks at them a few times but is also selling it to every marketing agency that is capable of paying.

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by LinuxBender on Thursday November 14, 2019 @11:40AM (#21536840)
I agree and can somewhat chime in. I am not a lawyer. I have spoken to folks that would be involved if we receive an NSL. We would obey the NSL regardless of GDPR. For standard legal requests, I am not sure of the current status of what we would do. AFAIK no U.S. company will risk disobeying the gag order and compliance aspects of a national security letter.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by keeganpoppen on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:32AM (#21521832)
hmm maybe the part where it's an always-on microphone in your home?
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by 8bitchemistry on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @09:07PM (#21520562)
> What happened to this feature? If Bezos wanted this it would be there.

Maybe the Echo team said it was too hard, and Bezos had to "disagree and commit".

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by hamandcheese on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @10:04PM (#21520852)
Wouldn’t it be the echo team who must disagree and commit?
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by 8bitchemistry on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @09:43PM (#21532321)
"This isn’t one way. If you’re the boss, you should do this too. I disagree and commit all the time."

-- Bezos in his 1997 letter to shareholders

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by sriram_malhar on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:55AM (#21521916)
Transparent buttons are easy. Transparency is hard.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by tropo on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @06:46PM (#21531108)
He might have wanted a transparent mute button until told that it would be $5 per unit and would delay the start of production by 4 months.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by thelittleone on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @05:28PM (#21518899)
Valid points although I suggest “very few people” could be hundreds of thousands or even millions at the scale of consumer phones and thus I submit “a very small percentage” as a more fitting description.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by seph-reed on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @05:35PM (#21518967)
As much as I love math and logic, sometimes I wish it would go fuck itself with all this "majority" shit. It's really putting a hamper on my ability to have any optimism that things might ever change.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by poisonborz on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @04:23AM (#21522361)
The new Echo Flex has this feature though. The mute button electronically disconnects the microphone. This feature is highlighted dominantly in promo materials. No transparency/visual verification though.

The problem I see with this - other than being cool - that it requires motion, so more likely to fail with time.

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by alkonaut on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @05:29PM (#21518907)
A good start that would be trivial on ALL smartphones would be to simply notify when the camera and mic is active by using an icon. This is already the case for Location services, I can't see why it could be used for audio/video recording. Add to that an Audit log where I can see that application so and so used the camera at time X, and I'm at least able to tell whether I have been spied on after the fact so I can get rid of the application in question.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by mlacks on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @08:27PM (#21520283)
The iPhone does this, at least for the mic. Cortana would randomly turn on the mic even while I wasn't in the app, when I opened the app it stopped. I uninstalled it.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by LinuxBender on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @05:54PM (#21519131)
That is a good start. That said, anything done in software can be conditionally disabled. So this assumes that the malicious behavior does not have root level access on the phone. But I agree, it is a start and is much easier and cheaper than requiring hardware changes.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by ta345635636 on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @03:26PM (#21517768)
Can't think of anyone that would object to the idea, indeed I think it should be the default.

I'm so sick of reading daily the scummy tactics these tech giants are using to hoover up private/personal data, and then reading their little acolytes on HN defending them ("Oh, it's probably just an A/B test, nothing to worry about!" or "It's too hard to monitor what our company is doing, even when presented to hard facts on the daily, what's a dev to do!").

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by m463 on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @05:49PM (#21519083)
https://puri.sm laptops (and soon phone) are designed in this way. A switch for the microphone and camera, and another for the radios.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by CaptSpify on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @06:36PM (#21519443)
Those switches are software under the hood though, at least as far as I can tell. I installed freebsd on my purism laptop, and it no longer shuts off the camera/microphone.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by hombre_fatal on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @07:03PM (#21519629)
Really? The marketing says they are hardware switches: https://puri.sm/products/librem-13/

> Two hardware kill switches, microphone/camera and wireless/bluetooth

> Now with a physical toggle switch, when your camera and microphone are switched off, you know they are off. Wireless and Bluetooth are combined in a second hardware switch to control all your radio signals inbound and outbound.

That would be a flat out lie if it wasn't actually a hardware switch which is hard to believe for a company whose entire identity and reputation is tied to these exact features.

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by CaptSpify on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:19PM (#21528284)
I don't have video/audio working on this install, so I'll try to get that set up later and make a video.

I do have a video of the wifi in action though: https://tmp.thekyel.com/month/wifi.mp4

I reached out to them a couple of times, and they asked if I had rfkill installed, I told them no, but it shouldn't matter if it was a hardware switch.

They told me that they would look into it, and then never responded after that.

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by kardos on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @05:31PM (#21530421)
Interesting indeed! Here [1] is how it allegedly works. Is the laptop easy enough to open and check if the board you have looks anything like those photos?

On the other hand, putting a signal onto disable pins is not exactly a kill switch. The description sounds like a hardware switch in front of a soft kill, which would make it some sort of quasi-HKS. A real kill switch would need to totally cut power to that controller rather than rely on it playing nice.

On the gripping hand, I find it hard to believe they would overlook something that crucial. Eg, if it didn't work, it would /have/ to show up during testing.

I wonder if the chip needs to be tightly integrated into the board and a proper HKS would require cutting signal to dozens of those pins -- something that is perhaps impractical -- so they went for a lesser option.

FWIW, there is at least one more person alleging the same broken functionality [2]

[1] https://puri.sm/posts/hard-not-soft-kill-switches/

[2] https://forums.puri.sm/t/wifi-killswitch-didnt-work-when-i-n...

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by leethargo on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @04:36AM (#21522422)
Maybe they mean that the switches themselves are hardware, but the deactivation is implemented in software, only triggered by the (harware) switch.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by kardos on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @07:17PM (#21519743)
That's a major accusation. Can you do a video or blog post where you show this happening? Eg, start recording something and hit the switch and show it continuing to record.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by alpaca128 on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:38AM (#21521845)
Switches on one device don't necessarily indicate how it's done on a different device.

As far as I remember Purism has always claimed that it's hardware switches on the phone, and I don't see why they'd lie because it would be very easy to verify.

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by m463 on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @05:58PM (#21530674)
I've never installed purism's version of linux, and they seem to work - I recall the camera/microphone disappear from the usb bus, shown in syslog. I don't remember what happened with the wifi/bt as I leave them off.

I could go check this behavior.

I haven't tried freebsd - could it be freebsd doesn't check for a hotplug?

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by ChuckMcM on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @05:06PM (#21518687)
It would be nice to have that feature.

On the down side switches are expensive and can fail though so they add warranty cost and another 'hole' in the case.

That said, a phone case that covers up all of those bits until you expressly open access to them would probably sell well.

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by hvm on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @05:02AM (#21522542)
Well if we didn't have an economy that makes us replace everything every year (an exaggeration but you get the point), we wouldn't care about the expensiveness.

We already have good enough technology that a phone should last us 10 years at least without having issues with the performance. The only problem is having replaceable batteries.

We need to move back towards things that last and backwards compatibility. Then it would make sense to pay $1000 or even $2000 on a phone, since you know it works perfectly and it'll last you 10-20 years.

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by sdinsn on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @05:15PM (#21518770)
> switches are expensive

Uh, no they aren't.

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by bsder on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @06:14PM (#21519292)
Relative to a transistor, they sure are.

In addition, since switches are an electromechanical component, they also affect your mechanical case engineering which electronic components don't do.

Finally, if your device is "water resistant" or somesuch, you now have an even bigger engineering headache waiting for your design team. Especially since you don't want a pushbutton, you probably want a slide switch.

Switches and buttons are really expensive on electronics components from a relative cost and engineering cost standpoint.

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by Johnny555 on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @06:53PM (#21519558)
Finally, if your device is "water resistant" or somesuch, you now have an even bigger engineering headache waiting for your design team. Especially since you don't want a pushbutton, you probably want a slide switch

The easy way to ensure that a switch is waterproof is to use something like a magnetic reed switch or hall effect sensor, so the switch just moves a magnet, which is sensed thorugh the plastic case. It uses more real estate than a pure switch, but requires no open holes through the case.

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by vageli on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @07:58PM (#21520077)
> It uses more real estate than a pure switch, but requires no open holes through the case.

This is at odds with the (apparent) consumer preference of smaller everything.

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by bsder on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @08:30PM (#21520308)
> The easy way to ensure that a switch is waterproof is to use something like a magnetic reed switch or hall effect sensor,

Um, using a hall effect sensor is exactly the kind of "soft switch" we're trying to avoid, no?

And magnetic reed switches are big, very expensive, vibration sensitive and failure prone. Since this is security, you're going to want it to fail open and you're not going to want a switch that closes briefly if you vibrate the phone.

Mechanical engineering is hard. Let's go shopping! ;)

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by Johnny555 on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @08:55PM (#21520466)
What's the difference between a hall-effect sensor + transistor that the manufacturer promises is a hardware off switch and a hardware switch with inaccessible contacts that the manufacturer promises is a hardware off switch? Either way, the consumer is going to want a light or other indicator that shows when the camera is in use.

Reed switches are available that are a few mm long, they aren't exactly huge.

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by kazinator on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @08:34PM (#21520330)
Let's go shopping ... for a metallic surgical implant for our index finger so we can operate the hall-effect-based camera/mic on-off switch. :)
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by ineedasername on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @09:59PM (#21520821)
OnePlus, which is a comparatively "budget" smartphone, has water resistance and a slider switch. So there's no reason phones with even bigger margins couldn't manage it, not from a cost perspective. It just comes down to the fact that most users don't care.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by Arbalest on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @05:36PM (#21518971)
The switch itself may not be, but the mechanical effects (hole in case, board space, waterproofing, design testing and as GP said, warranty) makes it expensive.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by Teever on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @05:57PM (#21519159)
How come they can make a thin, power sipping high resolution OLED panel for like $100 that fits in a phone but they can't make a reliable switch that ensures privacy?
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by Flockster on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @06:03PM (#21519216)
And the iPhone is coming with an mechanical switch since the first one, even in the waterproofed phones from the newer generations.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by vageli on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @07:57PM (#21520068)
I have no horse in this race, but switches are constantly manipulated physically, and can see more abuse and stress because of that.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by Arbalest on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @07:01PM (#21519606)
That's a business case problem. Not enough people are asking for it. It's expensive because it lowers their margin by a notable (maybe not huge) amount. No one said it couldn't be done, just that it's effort for too little payoff.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by jmccorm on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @02:48PM (#21517408)
Up until now, I've been focused on hardware (non-firmware) status lights which show outbound cell traffic, outbound wifi traffic, microphone data, and camera data.

You know what? I think I'd like your physical kill so much better. It could cleaner to implement, too. If the manufacturer couldn't offer it, I'd be happy to do business with a modder who could.

An existing exterior button like the iPhone's ring/silent switch seems like an ideal starting point to work a third-party hardware solution around. But given what little free space exists inside these devices, here's hoping that solution is more wiring than components!

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by kgwxd on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @05:10PM (#21518728)
I'd love one that had just a standard headphone/mic input. Maybe even separate headphone and mic jacks like on a PC. No camera, no built-in mic.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by justaguyhere on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @08:16AM (#21523628)
I like the idea. In addition to that, we should just not use Facebook at all. They do something shady, we plug that hole. Then they do something else shady, we plug that hole and the cycle will continue. We're long past the stage of trusting these gigantic for-profit corporations to behave or the gov to watch its citizens back.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by rchaud on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @10:47AM (#21525406)
Blackberry used to sell modified versions of their phones without cameras or the sound recorder app, to corporate and security-conscious clients. Common sense product to sell if your sales channels are B2B rather than B2C.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by dorkinspace on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @01:08PM (#21516435)
I love this idea and would pay extra for a phone with hardware switches for camera and mic! Then again, I'd also buy a phone that had no camera but that is damn near impossible today.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by sjustinas on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @05:03PM (#21518661)
Librem 5 has kill switches for camera, audio and data.

https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/

Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by tkifnn on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @01:20PM (#21516539)
Most smartphones are easy to take apart and remove the camera.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by avian on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @03:11PM (#21517633)
I just stick a piece of black tape over it. It doesn't even void the warranty.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by toddmorey on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @03:25PM (#21517762)
Audio is harder to solve for and may be even more invasive to personal privacy.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by drewbug on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @08:44PM (#21520384)
at that point it's just basically a Pocket PC
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by alpaca128 on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:41AM (#21521857)
You can always just connect a headset when needed. With an audio jack this would be fast enough to do quickly for incoming calls.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by carty76ers on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @05:18PM (#21518803)
Amazon’s Echo devices have this(according to both an engineer who posted here on HN about a year ago, and according to their privacy page)
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by toomanybeersies on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @06:18PM (#21519326)
I saw a laptop for sale that had this feature the other day, so there must be some amount of market demand for this.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by caleb-allen on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @06:26PM (#21519385)
My thinkpad has a toggle over the webcam. I don't think it cuts the connection but it does physically cover it
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by jpwgarrison on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @08:36PM (#21520343)
https://puri.sm/ makes great laptops with hardware switches. I have one, love it, and reluctantly accept that this market will always just be the same ~1400 nerds.
Re:Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll the... by matteocontrini on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:37PM (#21526939)
Some HP Spectre x360 models have a physical switch for the camera.