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Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by mrtksn on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:54AM (#21461632)
Actually, there as an argument that it is not good for Airbus at all because it will risk the stability of duopoly between Boing and Airbus. The idea is that now Boing will be forced to actually invest tens of billions in new aircraft design, forcing Airbus to do the same instead of milking the current designs for as long as possible. Also, apparently the aircraft manufacturing is not a very flexible business and Airbus already produces as many planes as possible so other manufacturers(especially the Chinese) may actually use this as an opportunity to grab market share and destroying the comfortable duopoly.
Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by thaumasiotes on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @07:16AM (#21461734)
> Actually, there as an argument that it is not good for Airbus at all because it will risk the stability of duopoly between Boing and Airbus.

I like thinking about this in a sort of hypothetical Sparta. Sparta had two kings from two different royal lines.

Suppose you're one of two kings, and the other royal line experiences some sort of dynastic hiccup. This inevitably happens to everyone.

A popular strategy throughout history is to capitalize on that hiccup by exterminating the existing royal line, or at least driving them out of power so you can take it yourself. As a king, you are ideally positioned to do this. Maybe you can take both thrones and be the double-king. Maybe you can put your cousin on the second throne. Maybe you can put a flunky on the second throne. Maybe you can get rid of the second throne, leaving yourself as sole king.

But once you do that, a precedent has been set. Your line will eventually stumble too, and it is likely to suffer whatever fate befell the other line the first time. Another strategy you have, back when the rival line first shows weakness, is to stake everything you have on your commitment to upholding the Spartan way of life as expressed in the dual kingship. Give rousing speeches on how unthinkable it would be for anything about the current setup to change. Throw all your considerable resources into supporting the king on the other throne, no matter how weak his position might look.

If that sticks, the other line is likely to remember that you were there when they needed you. But even more than that, you've just established that the dual kingship, and the two families who fill it, are an integral part of the culture, never to be questioned. That tradition may ultimately prove more helpful to you than any personal support. And it has such obvious benefits to the other royal line that, going forward, they will likely support it just as strongly as you do.

On this analogy, the problem with disturbing the Airbus / Boeing duopoly isn't that Boeing might start to compete with Airbus, provoking an arms race. The bigger problem is that (as you mention) some other company might start thinking they can make airplanes too, and who knows what could happen then.

Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by magduf on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:49AM (#21463693)
We'd be a lot better off with a 3rd maker of large passenger aircraft. Duopolies are never good for the market, and markets seem to do a lot better when there's 3 dominant players: with only 3, the players have very good economies of scale, but because there's 3 (and not 1 or 2), there's still a good amount of competition, while still having a lot of stability, so it balances out. Too many competitors means too little stability and too little economy of scale, too few competitors means too much power in the hands of those companies and too little competition.

Personally, I'd like to see Mitsubishi get back into the passenger plane business. They're already starting, but with a smaller regional jet.

Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by wahern on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @04:33PM (#21467617)
The E195-E2 is much larger than a typical regional jet, and it even has the range to go coast-to-coast in the U.S. It seems to have been overshadowed by the A220, though, perhaps for good reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_E-Jet_E2_family#E195-E...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A220#/media/File:CSerie...

I think what's missing in the Airbus-Boeing debate is an appreciation for the role of engine manufacturers. The A220, E195-E2, and Mitsubishi SpaceJet are all built around P&W's new geared turbofan engines.

It seems to me that at this point in the evolution of the industry everybody effectively builds their planes around the capabilities and limits of available engine technology. The immediate cause of death of the A380 was the refusal of any engine manufacturer to design and sell a more modern engine. The A380 became inefficient because its engines were at least 1.5 generations behind, not because there were 4 of them. (Of course, the reason nobody wanted to invest in a newer engine was because the market was too small to make it worth their time, especially considering their struggles with existing commitments.)

I imagine any aerospace engineering company could design a state-of-the-art and competitive body around the available engines. Aircraft manufacturers seem to self-select into market niches not because of engineering costs and difficulties, but simply because the global markets aren't large enough to support a third wide body manufacturer and only barely large enough, if at all, to support another 737/A320.

Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by breatheoften on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @12:05PM (#21464487)
Will airlines go multi-supplier again or will they specialize in particular manufacturers? The cost to an airline to keep certified personnel on staff capable of supporting planes from different manufacturers is probably greater than the unit savings they could realize in a situation where price competition exists ...
Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by fleetingmoments on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @12:23PM (#21464683)
Embraer is pretty large. Not Airbus or Boeing large but they make passenger aircraft for medium and shorter routes.
Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by inferiorhuman on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @04:55PM (#21467891)
Embraer is pretty large. Not Airbus or Boeing large but they make passenger aircraft for medium and shorter routes.

Embraer's commercial business is owned by Boeing now — the subsidiary is called BBC.

Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by rimliu on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @07:52AM (#21461969)
Was not the problem with MAX in part due to Boeing trying to milk the old design?
Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by selectodude on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:51AM (#21462525)
More due to airlines demanding a new 737 instead of a new plane. Boeing already made a new 737, it’s called the 757 and nobody bought it.
Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by cmurf on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @09:29AM (#21462892)
This. The consternation and blame direct at Boeing, while appropriate, distracts from the real source of the problem: airlines. And Southwest Airlines was possibly one of the largest sources of the 737 MAX negative incentives, by having a contract reportedly require $1 million per airplane if a certain threshold of pilot training was exceeded. And to this day Southwest still doesn't think MAX specific simulator training is necessary for pilots.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-airplane-southwest...

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2019/07/29/southwest...

That's especially incredible considering Southwest pilots' union says in a lawsuit that the 737 MAX is unsafe.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/in-sc...

Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by CaptainZapp on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:36AM (#21463539)
The consternation and blame direct at Boeing, while appropriate, distracts from the real source of the problem: airlines. And Southwest Airlines was possibly one of the largest sources of the 737 MAX negative incentives, by having a contract reportedly require $1 million per airplane if a certain threshold of pilot training was exceeded

Well, in this case I'd argue that it was totally Boeing's responsibility to communicate to such customers that they couldn't do it.

Instead they nodded their heads, demanded the impossible from their engineers, demoted or fired people that questioned it and in the end offered a hacked solution, which killed over 300 people.

I don't think that your argument excuses their culpability in any way, shape or form.

Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by cmurf on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @02:12PM (#21465934)
In no possible reading of what I wrote is there an excuse for Boeing's culpability. I'm suggesting split culpability.

If I offer you $1 million to shoot someone, and you go do that, two crimes have been committed. Pointing out that I'm also culpable in no way excuses your culpability. I would be the real source of the crime, as the instigator, having set out a strong incentive to commit the crime against your otherwise better judgement.

Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by chipsa on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:16AM (#21463967)
It's actually a bit worse than that. American Airlines actually announced the "new" 737 variant before Boeing was even thinking of it[0]. At which point Boeing needed to figure out how to make the next 737 happen.

[0] http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/2011/AMR-Corporation-An...

Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by selectodude on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:47AM (#21464277)
Boeing was all in on building a clean-sheet replacement for the 737 up to like 2011 until American said basically "we're not buying any new planes unless they're 737s and we'll re-standardize on Airbus". Boeing still shouldn't have built it (you don't need to be an aerospace engineer to see where the issues were going to be) but talk about being put into a "coffin corner" (ha ha).
Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by dgemm on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:08AM (#21463893)
The 757 was made to replace the 727 and serves a different market segment than the 737.
Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by selectodude on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:38AM (#21464202)
I think you're missing the point, here. The 757 was a 727 replacement because the 737 was never meant to be flying the routes and carrying the pax that it is today. The 737 MAX 10 has become, pax wise, a direct competitor of the 757-200. Airlines are demanding a 757 that doesn't require a new type rating, which is how you get this frankensteins monster of an airplane.
Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by DayDollar on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @02:01PM (#21465804)
Now, now, frankensteins monster could hold its ballance and had two sensors to sense the pitchfork wielding crowd.
Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by mrtksn on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:05AM (#21462088)
Yes, the Airbus did the same but in their case the a320 did not have a problem fitting larger engines under the wings. The problem is, if Boeing decides to make a brand new design that is more efficient than a320, Airbus will have to match it instead of milking the a320 despite not having its planes falling of the skies.
Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by gsnedders on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @09:06AM (#21462677)
Provisionally the A320neo's replacement is expected to be a clean-sheet redesign, despite the basic design being two decades newer. Of course, we'll see whether even a common type rating (not type certificate) is sufficient for airlines to not baulk at the idea.
Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by hugi on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:43AM (#21462426)
I don’t quite follow your train of thought. Isn’t it normal for companies to compete and evolve their designs? I am sure Airbus is capable of doing that.
Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by mrtksn on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:59AM (#21462612)
Why would Airbus spend 10 Billion on RD for a new plane if they can only spend 1.5 Billion on RD to modify an existing design? In their current form, Airbus and Boing don't really compete, which is bad for the customers but good for the shareholders of these companies. They already produce almost all of the passenger aircrafts and they would love this to continue.

The 737 MAX fiasco threatens this arrangement.

Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by the_mitsuhiko on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @09:29AM (#21462902)
> Why would Airbus spend 10 Billion on RD for a new plane if they can only spend 1.5 Billion on RD to modify an existing design?

Because that's what manufacturers always did? If you only do iterative changes then eventually you run into a wall. Boeing engineers also knew that. The disagreement between what engineers wanted and what management wanted has been a point of contention for many years.

Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by mrtksn on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @09:56AM (#21463147)
See, that wall is not a problem when you are in a duopoly. You will need to jump the wall only if your competitor jumps and why your competitor would jump if you can pocket the 8.5 billions and sell the regular stuff?

That was what Boeing and Airbus supposed to do: Sell the a320Neo and 737MAX for as long as possible and stay away from the wall. Now that Boeing screwed up, they may be forced to jump the wall and Airbus will have to follow. On the other side of the wall, they will sell the same number of planes.

Re:Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system by selectodude on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:51AM (#21464328)
Full-scale redesigns require more than a ton of capital to build the new plane. It will cost your customers a ton of capital to buy the new plane and change their entire setup (pilots, mx) to use the new plane. The airlines want new jets even less than the manufacturers want to pay to design them.