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Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by asdfasgasdgasdg on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:32PM (#21444748)
I'm all in on the concept that Tether is a fraud. However, isn't it slightly premature to file a lawsuit over losses? The latest price charts still have tether at $1~=1USDT. If you have Tether and are worried about its liquidity, shouldn't you just sell Tether to someone who wants it in exchange for something else?

Or is there some kind of problem with doing that transaction that I'm not aware of? Maybe some limitation that's not reflected in the price charts?

Edit: I see that this is not actually about Tether's liquidity at all. Instead, the accusation is that Tether was used to pump and dump Bitcoin, and those who suffered damages under this theory are people who bought Bitcoin at the top.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by JumpCrisscross on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:12PM (#21445944)
> isn't it slightly premature to file a lawsuit over losses

People bought, and Tether sold, USDT on assurances of being 100% backed by U.S. dollars. Tether is now admitting that not only is it not 100% backed, it isn't even entirely backed by U.S. dollars [1]. That's enough to allege fraud.

> The latest price charts still have tether at $1~=1USDT

Tether is under criminal investigation by the United States and New York State for, among other things, market manipulation. Taking Bitfinex's word that one's USDT has suffered no losses, all while they delay and unreasonably condition withdrawals [2], is like trusting Adam Neumann's on WeWork being worth $47bn.

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-30/tether-sa...

[2] https://tether.to/announcement/

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by ineedasername on Monday November 04, 2019 @05:44PM (#21447461)
Sure, it might be criminal fraud, but a lawsuit like this is civil. And in a civil lawsuit, you generally have to show actual damages. People that lost on the Bitcoin bubble burst caused in part by tether may have a stronger case though.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by JumpCrisscross on Monday November 04, 2019 @06:07PM (#21447678)
> People that lost on the Bitcoin bubble burst caused in part by tether may have a stronger case though

The complaint [1] seeks to certify precisely this class.

"Plaintiffs and members of the Class have suffered actual damages and injury in fact due to artificial prices to which they would not have been subject but for the unlawful conduct of the Defendants as alleged herein" (¶ 260). This is par for the course when it comes to "part-fraud, part-pump-and-dump, and part-money laundering" (¶ 2) schemes.

Note that the defendants are various, from Tether to its affiliates, including Bitfinex.

[1] https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.524076...

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by asdfasgasdgasdg on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:30PM (#21446139)
OK, so, I don't have a strong position on this -- I'm purely asking a question. No need to go all ham with hyperbolic similes.

Also, am I taking Bitfinex's word when I look at the exchange-derived price of Tether? I'm not sure. I would have thought that I was trusting the price discovery mechanism in general. If I'm trusting Bitfinex on this at all, it's only to the extent that Bitfinex would be backstopping the price of Tether on all other exchanges. Right? I mean, they can lie about how much a Tether is worth, but they can't lie about how much it's trading for on exchanges they don't own.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by Slartie on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:43PM (#21446292)
The problem is: the Tether-USD pairing, which is the one that is supposed to always be at 1:1, is really exotic on exchanges. The only major one coming to my mind is Kraken, and even there the volume on the pair is anemic compared to the Tether market cap.

Or at least it was this way last time I was really active in cryptos, which I‘m not really at the moment. But a quick scan of Coinmarketcap didn’t really indicate that this has changed.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by zaroth on Monday November 04, 2019 @09:36PM (#21449083)
The Tether:USD rate is not the only factor you must consider, particularly because of how thinly traded it is.

The more important metric is comparing what it costs to buy BTC on Coinbase with cold hard USD, and what it costs to buy and then transfer out BTC with Tether anywhere else.

If you can buy large quantities of BTC with your Tether at close to the USD:BTC rate, then you can exit your Tether holdings at or close to the effective peg.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by notyourday on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @12:11PM (#21454325)
That's sea shells being traded against rocks. For Tether not to be sea sells ( or rocks ) this trade needs to have a very low difference between X and Y:

Start send X from a bank account USD to trading spot. Do USD->Tether->BTC

Immediately follow up with:

Take BTC received and do BTC->Tether->USD (Y) => fire to the bank account

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by asdfasgasdgasdg on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:54PM (#21446404)
Thank you for providing this additional context. If the pairing is exotic and doesn't have much liquidity, can you still compute the expected value of tether by doing Tether->BTC->USD? Maybe not, because maybe BTC->USD is inefficient or illiquid itself?
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by nostrademons on Monday November 04, 2019 @04:10PM (#21446541)
You can compute the market price, either by taking the USD/USDT pairing on Kraken directly or by taking the ratio of BTC/USDT on Bitfinex against BTC/USD on Coinbase. They usually give the same answer modulo exchange fees (i.e. within about half a percent or so). When there was a run on Tether in May and it dropped to about $0.93, there was roughly a 7% price premium (several hundred dollars) on Tether-based exchanges like Binance and Bitfinex.

The confusion is because in theory, the market price should be tracking Tether reserves. Bitfinex admitted in a court filing that only 73% of outstanding Tether was backed by dollars. In an efficient market, that should imply that the price of Tether would fall to $0.73. Instead, it went back up to about $1. The implication is that traders either figured Tether would somehow be able to make up the shortfall, or that it just didn't matter.

Interestingly, people who shorted Tether expecting the market to be efficient got rekt, and the people who were actually correct (so far, at least) were the ones who were irrational. I wonder what this says about rationality and efficient markets today.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by JumpCrisscross on Monday November 04, 2019 @04:35PM (#21446762)
> I wonder what this says about rationality and efficient markets today

There isn't an efficient market around Tether.

The exchanges that trade it are predominantly controlled by its backer. Fraud investigations in play make a short's gains at risk for clawback. (Or at the very least, creating a legal headache for their owner.)

There is no assurance that the end game isn't a crash in value, but no value, which makes closing out a short position difficult or even impossible.

I have traded securities my entire career. It's been pretty obvious, from the start, that Tether is a scam. I wouldn't short it.

Disclaimer: This is not securities advice. Don't buy or sell securities or currencies based on Internet comments.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by vinceguidry on Monday November 04, 2019 @04:31PM (#21446717)
> I wonder what this says about rationality and efficient markets today.

Nothing new. Markets are more heavily dominated by those with more resources. If these players decide to act irrationally, then you'll go bankrupt faster than they will.

This is why you don't short industries, you only short companies. Industry will eat you alive. There are also strategy and tactics. Musk can fend off the short siege even though they might collectively have more resources than he does. If you want to beat someone in the market, your better bet is to enter it yourself than to try to bet they're going to fail.

Trying to use a short maneuver to expose market irrationality is not for the faint of heart. It never was. Shorts were only ever really useful to try to profit off of stupidity, not irrationality.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by biggestdecision on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:44PM (#21446308)
Tether promised a guaranteed 1:1 exchange rate with USD. That guarantee no longer exists, even though the rate is still ~1:1 Tether has no way to enforce that. If it's value tanks there is nothing they can do.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by MuffinFlavored on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:55PM (#21445028)
Can you spell out (maybe ELI5) why the concept of Tether is a fraud? Why is it not possible to back cryptos to a stabilized "1:1" "medium/currency" (which itself is another crypto it seems) and finally the USD dollar ?
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by JumpCrisscross on Monday November 04, 2019 @04:40PM (#21446806)
> Can you spell out (maybe ELI5) why the concept of Tether is a fraud?

Tether sold tokens on the promise that 1 USDT would be backed by U.S. dollars. They didn't keep one U.S. dollar for each USDT sold. If they did (or concealed) that willfully, it's fraud.

> Why is it not possible to back cryptos to a stabilized "1:1" "medium/currency" (which itself is another crypto it seems) and finally the USD dollar ?

U.S. dollars can be held as hard cash or in bank accounts. Holding $4 billion physically is bonkers. Banks holding U.S. dollars, meanwhile, have to follow U.S. anti-money laundering law. That requires, among other things, knowing who beneficially owns their deposits.

If an LLC opens a bank account, the bank will ask about its owners. With Tether, the beneficial owners are USDT holders. Since Tether can't identify them, they can't satisfy any bank's compliance questions.

So either (a) Tether's banks are violating U.S. AML law, (b) Tether is lying or (c) Tether is silently restricting and keeping records on who owns every USDT. Given we have contrevidence for (c), one can conclude–based solely on Tether's claims–that there's fraud afoot.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. This is neither legal nor trading advice.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by londons_explore on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @03:16AM (#21450577)
> With Tether, the beneficial owners are USDT holders.

As far as the bank is concerned, USDT is a valueless token and potentially empty promise by Tether Inc.

The beneficial owner of the money is Tether Inc, not the USDT holders.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by paulie_a on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @03:48AM (#21450727)
You never need to add that disclaimer.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by biggestdecision on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:22PM (#21445347)
Tether promised that 1 USDT would be backed by 1 USD, and they would always honor a 1:1 exchange rate. Now it turns out that USDT are not backed by USD, and Tether will not exchange between the two. You are reliant on third party exchange services, that don't guarantee the exchange rate.

Traditional banking services are hostile to crypto, so they cut off Tether's ability to trade in USD. And Tethers own interest (widespread use of USDT) is at odds with their inability to provide adequate backing USD. Exchanges all wanted more USDT to provide more liquidity, and so Tether just printed USDT without backing.

A crypto backed 1:1 by USD is a great idea, the trick is finding a way to actually guarantee the backing currency & exchange rate.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by xyzzyz on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:52PM (#21445711)
A crypto backed 1:1 by USD is a great idea, the trick is finding a way to actually guarantee the backing currency & exchange rate.

It's actually pretty lousy idea, because in practice it's exactly what we already have in normal banking system, where the "bank-USD crypto", that is, the numbers in your bank accounts, are already backed 1:1 by actual government USD, with government regulations backing the companies and the exchange rate.

If you can freely exchange cryptocoins to USD, there's absolutely no reason to ever consider a stablecoin, unless your goal is to evade money laundering, KYC, etc regulations, hence Tether.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by wpietri on Monday November 04, 2019 @06:07PM (#21447674)
> "bank-USD crypto", that is, the numbers in your bank accounts

Thanks for saying so. I see so much hype about digital money from people that apparently have never used direct deposit and a debit card, which is exactly digital money.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by austhrow743 on Monday November 04, 2019 @09:37PM (#21449085)
Yes, significant hype around digital money is about providing services to the underbanked/unbanked that people with the privilege of a bank account and debit card take for granted.

That's an important and needed service.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by wpietri on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @09:54AM (#21452871)
It is! And things like M-Pesa show it it can be done effectively and in short order when designed right. Which is part of why I find Bitcoin hype frustrating; it has clearly been way less effective.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by TheColorYellow on Monday November 11, 2019 @03:46PM (#21508721)
Bitcoin maximalism is a distracting and inept attempt at making something, that is no more than a conspiracy theory, the fundamental basis of a "next-gen" financial system.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by hydandata on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:19PM (#21446019)
If you think the banks keep 1:1 reserves, you are in for a big surprise. Ever heard of Fractional Reserve Banking?
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by jcranmer on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:33PM (#21446184)
Under FDIC, any account less than $100K or so will be redeemed at par, even if the bank is completely and totally insolvent. Your checking account is actually probably backed 1:1 in reserves because your bank needs the cash on hand to match withdrawals at any time; it's your savings account that is less likely to be so reserved.

Furthermore, even in a fractional reserve banking scenario, your bank will have 1:1 assets backing it up, since the money it loans out is counted as an asset, although it needs to be recognized that the loan is valued at less than par because of the risk of default. There is quite a lot of legal regulations on what capital can back up accounts, and the minimum ratios of various kinds of quality of capital.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by fmela on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:52PM (#21446381)
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by mffnbs on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:52PM (#21446384)
I believe the FDIC insurance was updated to 250k a decade ago.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by vkou on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @02:18AM (#21450367)
Bank reserves are 1:1. If a bank's reserves ever dip below that ratio, the bank is insolvent, and is in deep shit.

Only a fraction of those reserves are cash. Hence fractional reserve. The remainder aren't liquid, but they are worth enough to cover the reserves, under best accepted accounting practices.

Tether's non-cash reserves largely consist of "A money launderer stole our money, but pinky swears that they'll give it back." It's not like a fractional reserve bank, it's just a straight up fraud. It's why despite many assurances from Tether, it has still not been independently audited.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by gnode on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:04PM (#21445859)
> there's absolutely no reason to ever consider a stablecoin

Although Tether's purpose has largely been to avoid regulation, and participate in cryptocurrency speculation, a stablecoin would be superior for actual commerce. Bitcoin has failed for commerce, to some extent because of instability and speculation.

Being able to use something equivalent to cash to transact digitally, with client-side security seems like a desirable technology to me.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by xyzzyz on Monday November 04, 2019 @04:47PM (#21446870)
stablecoin would be superior for actual commerce

Superior to bitcoin, surely, but no superior to dollars. I have absolutely no difficulty with using my dollars to pay for anything I want.

The biggest reason one might not want to use dollars is to conceal one's identity, and while I admit that there exist valid uses for that, most of the market for anonymous commerce is illegal activity.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by edmundsauto on Monday November 04, 2019 @06:07PM (#21447673)
A lot of people don't use dollars, and/or find the USD/$local_currency exchange process cumbersome and expensive.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by throwaway2048 on Monday November 04, 2019 @09:13PM (#21448976)
the exchange process for cryptocoins is far worse in approximately every locale.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by xyzzyz on Monday November 04, 2019 @07:10PM (#21448219)
Online shopping exists in other countries too, and you don't need dollars to buy things online there.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by edmundsauto on Monday November 04, 2019 @08:54PM (#21448885)
Very true, but AFAICT it's not as easy in many countries. Shopping across borders is pretty expensive; currency conversions take a chunk.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by dmitriid on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @01:28AM (#21450169)
Online shopping is instant, and I will have my physical goods within a week or two in most countries around the world, and my digital goods instantly. And there are several layers of fraud protection on top of that.

The currency exchange rate is a minor price to pay for such a convenience.

Meanwhile with <insert literally any cryptocurrency here> it’s just a simple <convoluted 20-step process not even guaranteed to work and with no consumer protection>.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by tptacek on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:25PM (#21445379)
Is it a great idea? Or does it not reliably exist for a reason: because it's in tension with banking regulations, and anyone who tries to do it without applying all the same KYC and AML regs that motivate stablecoins in the first place are going to be frozen out the same way Bitfinex was, to the point where they too will end up pitifully reliant on money laundering firms opening fleets of fraudulent accounts at tiny banks?
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by seibelj on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:19PM (#21446016)
USDC from ycombinator-funded Coinbase is doing fine https://www.coinbase.com/usdc

But the same old tropes about crypto always get the upvotes.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by papln on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:49PM (#21446350)
How is USDC operation financed? Is it a marketing expense of Coinbase? Is "Convert USDC at a ratio of US$1.00 for 1 USDC with no fees" expected to change to a fee in the future?
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by nostrademons on Monday November 04, 2019 @07:29PM (#21448359)
Loss leader to get you to trade more. The existence of USDC makes it easier to move in and out of crypto positions, and to send crypto to other exchanges without taking on exchange-rate risks. Coinbase's business model is to take a fee whenever you transact. The more transactions you make, the more money they make.

It's similar to Google's "make the web faster" efforts (Chrome, V8, AMP, mod_pagespeed, hosting JQuery & other AJAX libs, developer education). If the web is faster, you visit more pages. If you visit more pages, you search more. If you search more, you click on more ads, which makes Google more money.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by Animats on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:00PM (#21445090)
Because there really aren't substantial hard assets behind Tether. Even Tether now admits this. What keeps this going is a net inflow of cash into Tether. If that ever switches to a net outflow, the Ponzi scheme collapses.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by eternalny1 on Monday November 04, 2019 @08:14PM (#21448659)
Since Tether can't back the 1/1 USD in an actual bank (due to banking regulations), they have to park that money somewhere.

If they are parking it in other cryptocurrencies, then they have to ensure that the value of that particular cryptocurrency does not fall below the average price they had to buy it at (to ensure they can redeem).

So if, for example, Tether has had to buy Bitcoin and the average of all those purchases came out to $7,500/BTC, they have to ensure that BTC doesn't fall below $7,500 now because otherwise they end up net-negative.

At least from what I can gather.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by teknopurge on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:46PM (#21445637)
Where does Tether admit this?
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by JumpCrisscross on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:02PM (#21445826)
> Where does Tether admit this?

A New York State court filing [1]. (They’re under criminal investigation by the U.S. and New York.)

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-30/tether-sa...

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by rtempaccount1 on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:10PM (#21445214)
It's entirely possible to have a stablecoin and indeed others exist.

The key to a stablecoin however, is trust. Users have to trust that their holdings are actually backed by real fiat currency as that's the promise of the stablecoin.

That trust can typically be bolstered by things like 3rd party audits, which is something Tether promised for many years and did not deliver.

With Tether the problems are that they have avoided scrutiny and audit, made statements on their website that subsequently turned out to be false and have a somewhat murky corporate structure. None of these, should , engender trust.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by noxer on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:51PM (#21445703)
Stablecoin do not need to be backed by fiat. They can be backed by crypto as well an be stable against fiat or anything of value. This way trust can mostly be removed. No 3rd party audit needed because you can lock up crypto in a way it's public verifiable for everyone.

There are some trust issues that are still problematic like for example someone needs to provide a price feed against which the value will be stabilized. Whoever is in control of that price feed could of course damage the system to the point where people loose all their money.

But in the real world such a price feed could come from a DEX so its not controlled by someone but instead by what people buy and sell. In a closed system this could however cause a "runaway" of the price due to price feedback loops.

Here is an interesting talk about a crypt collateralized stablecoin proposal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se2CDsmMqvE again this does NOT yet exist!

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by ht85 on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:08PM (#21445898)
I have a hard time understanding how a stablecoin could be backed by crypto.

Traditional currencies are mostly backed by things that are very unlikely to crash like real estate, profit share in companies and other ressources with value besides speculation.

What would happen if BTC crashed to 1/10 of its price, and all other coins followed?

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by jki275 on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:09PM (#21445914)
You've hit upon the problem. All the stable coins, unless they're actually based on and backed by something other than other cryptocurrencies, are essentially fraudulent.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by dragonwriter on Monday November 04, 2019 @07:30PM (#21448366)
> I have a hard time understanding how a stablecoin could be backed by crypto.

If you had a coin backed by a basket of other cryptocurrencies, it would likely be relatively stable in that the distinct individual volatility of each of the backing coins would be mitigated. OTOH, the overall volatility of the cryptocurrency market (which often moves rapidly and in the same direction) would not, so it wouldn't be very stable.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by seibelj on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:22PM (#21446048)
MakerDAO has overcollaterized deposits of Ethereum backing their stablecoin Dai
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by noxer on Monday November 04, 2019 @04:00PM (#21446460)
You should totally watch the video above ;) In short you can earn money if you re-collateralize with crypto so if the price goes down it produces demand for that crypto to re-collateralize. Some people get liquidated of course because they are unable to throw more money in. This is the risk you take if you participate. It only makes sense to participate if you are long or if you just buy up the ones who get liquidated. For the users of the stablecoin however this is totally irrelevant they want to avoid the volatility by using stablecoins. Therefore they wont profit on price gains but also wont lose on price drops. They kinda gave away that risk/opportunity. "Gave away" as in someone else has it now. And that's why it works. Someone actually will lose if the price drops. Someone has to. Unless everyone would hold enough reserves to actually cover the drop. But people are greedy and will risk more than they can cover. To good part is that they should lose before they can harm the system. Its basically like with trading where the exchange will liquidate your position before you actually go below zero.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by rtempaccount1 on Monday November 04, 2019 @05:06PM (#21447059)
In the current centralized markets, stablecoins are used as fiat on-ramps, there's no real need there for a crypto backed stablecoin for that kind of role. I'm sure you could have one, but in the case of Tether, that's not what the product is or claimed to be.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by xibalba on Monday November 04, 2019 @07:25PM (#21448338)
Tether claimed to be backed by fiat at 1:1 USD.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by jcranmer on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:45PM (#21445629)
Tether claimed to be backed 100% by USD (this claim was walked back in successive stages, but at the time of the 2017 bubble, it was still the claim). To have that, you need $100M - $1B of USD currency sitting in a bank. At that scale, any bank needs to be asking where that money came from to comply with regulations. The goal of Tether, quite literally, is to park money without having to answer those pesky questions, which means no reputable bank is going to take them as a client. Evidently, the "banks" Tether found who could work with them ended up being money launderers who were busy skimming off actual assets Tether was accumulating.

More generally, cryptocurrency carries with it a whiff of KYC/AML regulatory evasion. With the purpose of stablecoins is generally stated as pretending you're trading in USD without actually doing so (and the financial regulations implied by actually doing so kicking in), it is not hard to infer that many, if not most, users are interested solely in evading this rules, which is going to cause banks' compliance officers to look at it very skeptically.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by hluska on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:07PM (#21445182)
I’m not OP and I’m sure that far more intelligent people than me will take a stab at this.

As I understand it, the issue isn’t with a stablecoin. There would be nothing wrong with backing a token to a currency.

Unfortunately, it looks like Tether didn’t tell the truth. They claimed that they would have one US dollar in their bank account per token in circulation. This was a lie and they release an enormous number of unbanked tokens into the market. The class action claims they created 2.8 billion USDT between 2017 and 2018. At the time, the market believed the tokens had implicit value (as one was backed by a dollar) so the theory is that this made buying crypto a more compelling investment.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by macspoofing on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:22PM (#21446053)
>There would be nothing wrong with backing a token to a currency.

I don't know about that. Isn't the entire point of stablecoin to skirt existing regulations? Moving fiat currency isn't hard in and of itself. There is no technical challenge in Paypal sending $100,000 to my friend in Iran.

What makes it hard are the regulations combating money laundering, criminal and terrorism funding and enforcement of sanctions.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by papln on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:51PM (#21446366)
Paypal could void the transaction and freeze your account or your friend's account.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by fwip on Monday November 04, 2019 @04:34PM (#21446754)
Exactly, because PayPal has to comply with regulations.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by jki275 on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:16PM (#21445991)
This is an accurate explanation of the issue.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by conception on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:07PM (#21445187)
Tether's market cap is $4,132,688,008 USD. That means that the folks running tether need to have 4B in reserves. That is... unlikely.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by papln on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:58PM (#21446434)
This amazes me. It's really hard to get $4B in revenue for an actual product. But they have sold 4B pretend dollars that are no better than dozens of other cryptocurrencies?
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by jacobush on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @02:54AM (#21450489)
Actually worse than other cryptocurrencies. Because Tether can collapse if (when) they are found guilty. The "normal" cryptocurrencies can collapse only when the market as a whole says so.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by edmundsauto on Monday November 04, 2019 @06:20PM (#21447796)
According to Matt Levine, some of their reserves are literally accounts receivable from other shell companies they have started.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by lubesGordi on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:02PM (#21445827)
The CONCEPT of stablecoin is fraudulent/fantasy because you can't take a stablecoin and look at it and see exactly where the fiat that is backing it is. You can't prove that it's fiat backing exists in any way. The only reason it exists is because there are a ton of fanboys for anything crypto and they don't have a clue how it works. TONS of people were freaking out about tether very shortly after it became well known.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by seibelj on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:20PM (#21446037)
YC-funded Coinbase has monthly attestation reports for its USDC stablecoin, which is the second most popular https://www.coinbase.com/usdc
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by lubesGordi on Monday November 04, 2019 @04:40PM (#21446809)
The only reason something like this can work is because of trust in the institution that provides it. That whole premise is counter to the crypto currency model.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by lawn on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:07PM (#21445174)
They've already admitted it's not backed 1:1, although they claimed it was always backed before. Others have linked an article with a source.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by Legogris on Monday November 04, 2019 @10:29PM (#21449344)
The commenter you're replying to is "all in on the concept that Tether is a fraud", not "all in on that the concept of Tether is a fraud". Ie they're talking about Tether specifically, not the concept of fiat-backed digital assets.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by DylanBohlender on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:58PM (#21445776)
It all boils down to fractional reserves in an illiquid market. If you're keeping the USD in a bank and issuing a coin representing it, no problems arise, because you'd effectively be acting like a bank.

In Tether/iFinex's case, you have a situation where there was a "pseudo-bank" (Tether) and a crypto exchange (iFinex) that were highly intertwined. Because Tether was more or less controlled by iFinex, which also controlled one of the largest cryptocurrency exchanges by volume, this provided a unique cover for fraud, and different profit motives than a traditional bank would have. Tether did its business by exchanging USD for Tethers. iFinex did its business by pocketing spreads and fees from crypto to crypto trades. Meaning, Tether had a bunch of USD on hand, and iFinex had a bunch of crypto (primarily Bitcoin) on hand. What likely happened in Tether's case was that iFinex instructed Tether to create unbacked Tethers out of thin air, and used these Tethers to pump up the value of iFinex's own Bitcoin holdings. For example, suppose issuing $1M of Tether and spending it on Bitcoin moved the spot price up enough to increase the value of iFinex's Bitcoin holdings by more than $1M. Isn't that basically free money? You've spent $1M and created more than $1M in paper value. All you have to do is sell those Bitcoins at the new, higher price for real USD, and you've made relatively risk-free profit.

Why the hell did this work for so long? First, the market believed Tethers were backed 1:1 with USD and treated the two as functionally equivalent. Some traders would see the Bitcoin price increase on a Tether exchange like Bitfinex, and then buy Bitcoin at nominally "cheaper" prices on non-Tether exchanges like Coinbase, so that they could transfer the coins over to Bitfinex and sell them for a tidy profit. In this way, the Tether exchanges could impact Bitcoin's price even on exchanges that didn't use Tether due to the natural incentive for arbitrage. Second, the crypto markets are quite illiquid, and because orderbooks are thin it only takes a small amount of buying or selling firepower to push prices pretty drastically. The alleged fraud is that iFinex did exactly that, and progressively pushed prices up. Third, as prices swelled, Bitcoin attracted more _real_ investors, and many such investors then spent actual USD on Bitcoin, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy that in theory would have enabled iFinex to totally get away with it - all they had to do was sell off enough Bitcoin to cover for all of those unbacked Tethers they'd issued, and they would essentially become whole.

Now, things get interesting when it comes to how iFinex ran its business. iFinex refused to implement KYC/AML checks on their exchange, because nominally they were "crypto-to-crypto" and thus considered themselves to be outside of the US financial system's jurisdiction. In practice they used an indirect relationship via one of Wells Fargo's affiliates for a long period of time until they were found out, and then the US financial system more or less put a moratorium on doing business with them. It turns out that being locked out of the US financial system is extremely damaging when your customers want to withdraw US dollars, so for a period of time, iFinex tried jumping around from bank to bank, trying to stay ahead of regulators who had effectively blacklisted them by having customers making deposits wire their money to pay off other customers looking to withdraw money, and all kinds of other shady practices. Eventually they ran out of options and started doing business with what looks to have been a money laundering shadow bank, Crypto Capital Corp, who then promptly stole a bunch of their money, which then led to the current debacle.

All told, it's one of the most interesting stories in the financial markets by a long shot. It will be fascinating to watch it continue to play out.

Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by zelly on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @11:14AM (#21453667)
Most people who talk about Tether agree it's a scam, yet a lot of people hold money in it. It's an interesting case of mass psychology. How long can you kick the can down the road? Nobody can say they weren't warned.
Re:The trillion-dollar lawsuit against Tether by bduerst on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @12:42PM (#21454644)
One of the things I learned in my behavioral finance class during grad school was that there are people who would invest into ponzi schemes knowing it was a scam. They are betting the returns on getting out before the scam collapses and they lose everything.