News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by cortesoft on Friday November 01, 2019 @07:51PM (#21424906)
I remember reading something somewhere about the real issue with risk and playgrounds... that modern playgrounds often hide risk, whereas older playgrounds it would be more obvious. The idea is that there were clearly places (high up, requiring climbing skill) in the old playgrounds that kids would slowly work their way up to conquering. Because the risk was obvious, kids would approach it with caution and build up skills to get there. In contrast, a lot of injuries occur when 'safe' playgrounds have kids try to do things not designed for, but because of the way they are made don't appear to be dangerous bus actually are. Giving kids the ability to assess risk accurately, and develop the skill to take that risk, is the important part.
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by magicalhippo on Friday November 01, 2019 @08:46PM (#21425141)
The rules we have here in Norway, which is a variation of a EU thing IIRC, allow kids to get hurt, but not permanently. There are a lot of dangers which are non-obvious, especially to a kid. Crevices where the rope for tightening the hood can get stuck, potentially strangling them. Stairs where a kid can get their head through but not their body. Swings where they can lose their fingers thanks to the chain mounts or similar. Lots of similar things.

I have a friend who design playgrounds, and he operates on the principle that there's two kinds of safety. It's the objective safety I mention above, and there's the subjective safety which you mention. Kids should have objectively safe playgrounds, but they should be allowed to challenge their subjective safety feeling.

The objective safety has mostly to do with the design and maintenance of the equipment. The subjective safety is more due to the design of the playground itself and the elements in it.

One example is a climbing wall. With the right layout, sufficient impact sand or rubber on the ground around it as well as proper maintenance, it can be objectively very safe but still allow kids to feel they push their boundaries.

Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by GuiA on Friday November 01, 2019 @10:00PM (#21425417)
Your comment made me think of a great comment on the topic I had read here a few months ago. After some digging around, I found it, and it turns out to be a post of yours, too! :)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19924858

Very cool, thanks, keep posting!

Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by stevenwoo on Saturday November 02, 2019 @02:40AM (#21426238)
The slide in your linked article resulting in a lawsuit was 12 feet tall. I recently played at a kids (something like 4-10) park that has a climbing feature that one can get to the top of that is a bit taller than that. It was fun but I was thinking the whole time, this could never go over in the USA.

https://goo.gl/maps/bF6bSSQ93SbUuHs96

Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by foobarian on Saturday November 02, 2019 @07:47AM (#21427108)
An inflatable park company came to our town for a bit with a bunch of rides, one of which was a super high slide. I didn't understand why they were making us get into burlap sacks before going down, but I understood later - the speed near the bottom was high enough that I'm pretty sure I would've walked away with major burns if I'd touched the slide. My wife ended up with a mystery burn she noticed at the end of the day that I suspect came from this.
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by teddyh on Saturday November 02, 2019 @08:43AM (#21427337)
Obligatory xkcd:

https://xkcd.com/255/

Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by cortesoft on Saturday November 02, 2019 @01:45AM (#21426104)
Haha I wonder if this is the comment that I was remembering when I commented above!
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by chipperyman573 on Friday November 01, 2019 @10:17PM (#21425491)
Thanks for finding this for me, I was about to look for the same thing. It's interesting how memorable that comment is.
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by esmi on Friday November 01, 2019 @11:02PM (#21425624)
Are you able to provide a link to pictures of a playground designed by your friend? I would be very interested in see it. The playgrounds sound very well thought out.
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by bryanrasmussen on Saturday November 02, 2019 @02:57AM (#21426270)
This is probably not the company the original poster's friend works at but Monstrum makes some really cool playgrounds https://monstrum.dk/en
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by punnerud on Saturday November 02, 2019 @10:12AM (#21427802)
Examples from Norwegian playgrounds: https://www.flickr.com/photos/77344375@N07/?

(My own photos)

Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by jacobolus on Friday November 01, 2019 @08:09PM (#21424993)
One of the problems with de-risked playgrounds is that kids crave a certain amount of risk, and if there is nothing to do that seems a bit risky, kids (especially older kids) will start looking for ways to make the playground more exciting, doing things that the playground designers didn’t anticipate and didn’t consider the safety of.

My understanding (based on some news article I read a couple years ago; take this with a pinch of salt) is that in practice, the injury rates from de-risked playgrounds are not materially lower than injury rates from older riskier playgrounds. The main difference is that the new playgrounds are less fun.

Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by etatoby on Saturday November 02, 2019 @07:21AM (#21427032)
By "older kids" you mean "moronic young adults," I agree:

https://youtu.be/JA7jc4rpTns

Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by rmwaite on Saturday November 02, 2019 @07:59PM (#21430994)
But that moronic tendency is pretty much guaranteed based on hormones and emotional development.
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by siddboots on Friday November 01, 2019 @08:49PM (#21425154)
I agree with the argument, but I'm skeptical of the claim that "injury rates from de-risked playgrounds are not materially lower". If these playgrounds are more expensive to build and deliver no benefit at all, surely they would have been abandoned long ago.
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by greedo on Friday November 01, 2019 @09:08PM (#21425224)
They make parents and administrators "feel good." That's a significant benefit, one that drives a lot of purchasing decisions.
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by wirrbel on Saturday November 02, 2019 @04:42AM (#21426568)
Not only that. They give them a paper trail that they made safety-focused decisions. That especially applies to administrators.
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by atoav on Saturday November 02, 2019 @02:35AM (#21426225)
Of course this is anecdotal evidence, but me and my 3 brothers grew up with a lot of silly or dangerous stuff: climbing on trees, skateboarding, snowboarding, trampolines, jumping down stairs, jumping over ramps with the bike, jumping from cliffs and bridges etc.

Our parents would just let us do our stuff. And although we were bruised all the time only one of us broke a bone once.

In the same time my friend with over-careful doctors as parents broke arms/legs roughly four times. And other kids with paranoid parents had similar problems.

Our parents thought us early on that we need to judge these risks ourselves, while these other kids would be extremely scared of harmless stuff at one point and overconfident in other more dangerous situations.

Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by nollbit on Saturday November 02, 2019 @03:54AM (#21426416)
Perhaps your friends parents were over-careful because their kids kept breaking bones? Kids are different. Mine is very risk-averse and has essentially never hurt himself bad. I was the same way as a kid. His friends are daredevils who hurt themselves constantly.

Also, when it comes to "our parents in the past would let us do anything and I came out ok" sounds a bit like survival bias to me. In Sweden, far fewer kids die today than in the 70s, so perhaps there's some merit to bicycle helmets, safer playgrounds and not letting your kids eats whole grapes unattended before the age of five or so etc.

Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by watwut on Saturday November 02, 2019 @05:33AM (#21426715)
Or maybe the parents became over paranoid, because their kids where prone to injure themselves and even broke logs multiple times.

Maybe the parents were not so much paranoid as reacting to their kids either doing dumber stuff or being more clumsy or having weaker bones.

Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by afarrell on Saturday November 02, 2019 @05:25AM (#21426694)
> If these playgrounds are more expensive to build and deliver no benefit at all, surely they would have been abandoned long ago

How does that follow?

For something to be abandoned, there needs to be social agreement that it is a bad idea. This is meaningfully different than something being a bad idea.

Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by cortesoft on Saturday November 02, 2019 @01:44AM (#21426100)
Your faith in the rationality of the world is a bit too strong.
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by mike_hock on Friday November 01, 2019 @08:55PM (#21425179)
lol as if that's how the world works
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by voldacar on Saturday November 02, 2019 @03:58AM (#21426427)
> If these playgrounds are more expensive to build and deliver no benefit at all, surely they would have been abandoned long ago.

human beings are often not rational

Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by Spooky23 on Saturday November 02, 2019 @08:06AM (#21427174)
They do have a benefit — ada compliance. Fun is less important than not getting sued.
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by PeterStuer on Saturday November 02, 2019 @02:11AM (#21426171)
The derisking for the playground owner/exploiter still works regardless.
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by lazyasciiart on Friday November 01, 2019 @11:12PM (#21425654)
That's not entirely true. a) because kids are bad at assessing risk, even when it is obvious. Have you never seen a kid stuck somewhere they could climb up to but not down? My five year old sister managed to climb ten feet up a wall above a concrete floor, and then stayed there weakly sniffling 'help' until one of us noticed she was out of sight. b) because the old playgrounds often suffered from hidden dangers like rusting metal that could break off as splinters under the skin, which happened when I was about ten. I got a tetanus injection and then spent a week or more regularly soaking my foot in hot water to make sure any remaining rusty pieces weren't lingering in there.
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by frenchy on Saturday November 02, 2019 @03:00AM (#21426284)
> Have you never seen a kid stuck somewhere they could climb up to but not down?

Goodness, I've instructed mountaineering courses, and I see plenty of adults who do this. The main difference isn't that the adults are smarter, but that they stopped trying to have fun.

Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by lazyasciiart on Saturday November 02, 2019 @07:49PM (#21430948)
Adults aren’t necessarily good at it either, no. I was responding to this idea that old dangerous playgrounds were really “safer” > Because the risk was obvious, kids would approach it with caution
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by tcbawo on Friday November 01, 2019 @08:25PM (#21425056)
There is a park near me with a metal bridge only a couple feet off the ground. There are gaps where children can fit through to climb up/down. Just outside and perpendicular to this particular bridge is a set of metal stairs. I witnessed a toddler fall off the bridge and narrowly miss hitting his head on the metal corner of the stairs. It probably could have killed him. The mother was sufficiently spooked that they immediately left. Everyone is just worried about limiting liability. In this case, smarter positioning of stairs would eliminate some risk. Considering how these sets are so modular, I'm surprised there isn't more oversight about deployment.
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by WalterBright on Friday November 01, 2019 @10:01PM (#21425419)
Back when I was a boy, the local park had an old steam locomotive set up for the kids to play on and around. It was quite popular. Being all iron, angles, and sharp corners, there was nothing safe about it, but I don't recall anyone getting hurt on it.
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by jchallis on Friday November 01, 2019 @10:53PM (#21425599)
Dennis the Menace in Monterey? Now the train is fenced off...
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by m_mueller on Saturday November 02, 2019 @04:17AM (#21426488)
They still have one in Tokyo, in a playground called Higashi-choufu. My son played there from age 1 to 2.5 when we had to move. It was quite well done with sharp pieces removed from the conductor stand. Children could play there or climb back in the coal wagon and slide down its angled floor. He never hurt himself, but I banged my head a couple of times due to low overhangs...
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by dragonwriter on Friday November 01, 2019 @11:29PM (#21425708)
> Giving kids the ability to assess risk accurately, and develop the skill to take that risk, is the important part.

Unless the playgrounds magically changed brain development so that kids got well-developed executive function much earlier than human children develop that under normal circumstances, there is no conceivable playground design that could do that.

And older playgrounds weren't, in any case, designed to do that, or with the risks built in intentionally for any particular purpose. They were built with less structured consideration of risk, which made the actual risks (and the obviousness of them, even to adults) essentially random.

Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by dragandj on Saturday November 02, 2019 @07:02AM (#21426986)
As one of the kids who grew up in relatively unrestricted playing environment (read: no purpose-built playgrounds, the whole city/town/village was our playground) I am wondering how today's kids manage to develop any skill in the physical world, since parents are constantly around and the kids are super-dependent on the supervision and restrictions.
Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by xg15 on Saturday November 02, 2019 @07:04AM (#21426990)
> Unless the playgrounds magically changed brain development so that kids got well-developed executive function much earlier than human children develop that under normal circumstances, there is no conceivable playground design that could do that.

I'm not an expert, but I find it quite likely that, yes, playgrounds do magically change brain development.

I think it's well-known in developmental psychology that your experience of, interaction with and reasoning about the world around you shapes how your brain develops.

Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by dragonwriter on Saturday November 02, 2019 @11:15AM (#21428126)
> I'm not an expert, but I find it quite likely that, yes, playgrounds do magically change brain development.

They don't change it enough to make executive function develop early enough to make that story plausible, which we know because some of the studies on how and when executive function develops which make it implausible occurred with people who grew up with those old playgrounds.

Pretending children are just smaller adults is as much of a problem as excessively infantilizing them, if slightly less popular of a problem the last couple decades.

Re:The war against today's dangerously dull playgrounds by calewis on Saturday November 02, 2019 @06:00AM (#21426779)
I’d love a link but this argument makes total common sense. Learning where your boundaries are, and pushing them a bit, is such an important developmental step.