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Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by partiallypro on Friday October 25, 2019 @04:56PM (#21359172)
Still to this day people view Windows through the lense of XP experiences. I always wonder how much damage that era did. People claimed to "love" XP, but they are all rose tinted in memory. Everyone hated XP until SP2 and SP3. The Security Center was something everyone hated too. But yeah, some things it did really well, but others not so much. 10 is so much better than people give it credit for, and yes there are still bugs. But, all things considered it without a doubt the strongest OS Microsoft has ever built, and it is moving forward...where I feel like OSX is finally moving backward.
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by riffraff on Friday October 25, 2019 @05:50PM (#21359588)
People loved XP coming from '98 which was way more prone to crash, BSOD, data losses etc, from what I recall.
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by Rapzid on Friday October 25, 2019 @11:04PM (#21361432)
Not to mention plug-and-play finally started coming into its own. XP started the trend of having the massive generic driver repository so you could actually get your NIC to work so you could DL your other drivers without needing the CD/floppy with the NIC drivers :) Oh man, XP was great.
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by DayDollar on Saturday October 26, 2019 @04:20AM (#21362479)
I loved that with XP, that you could actually turn the gui back into something WIN98 like- which ment, it was boring, grey and minimal. And thats how i want my gui to be. I dont want some fashionfacista to redesign it to his/her whims. I dont want it to grab my attention for unimportant crap. I want it laying there in the sun, grey, damp and featureless like a new born island. My work has enough excitment and new stuff to focus on- i dont want to be bothered by what other people consider important- security center rages, advertisements and by bothering i ment to be reminded of there existence in any way (that includes gobbling huge amounts of system ressources) - so in XP you could still shut the worst offenders down permanently. It is, and it was for the user who took time to settle in, the perfect system. Everything that came after, is a lovecraftian horror that trys way to much to please a preconcived user- who wants nothing more then to strangle all this unpleasant attempts of servitude.
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by rnd0 on Friday October 25, 2019 @06:39PM (#21359937)
I think it's a mix of both? I "loved" XP once two things happened: I got a computer with more than 256mb of ram, and I installed SP2. After that it ran really well and yes, so much better than Windows 98 did.
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by tinus_hn on Friday October 25, 2019 @07:32PM (#21360258)
Don’t forget Windows ME which was truly a turd in a class of its own.
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by asveikau on Friday October 25, 2019 @11:37PM (#21361546)
I still don't completely understand why they didn't make Win2k into a "consumer" product. A lot of techies here who installed Windows themselves in that era probably skipped ME and went to that. But all the consumer PCs shipped with 98 or ME.

I remembering hearing at the time that this was about hardware support and/or app compatibility. But my cynical side just thinks they wanted to justify charging more for a workstation SKU for another release cycle.

Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by TheKarateKid on Saturday October 26, 2019 @12:09AM (#21361662)
Actually, ME was the result of a development disaster similar to the one which resulted in Vista.

Microsoft was planning on building an entirely new Internet-focused consumer version of NT. It was too ambitious for its time, so to meet deadlines, most of it was scrapped and some UI elements were backported into an updated Windows 98 which became ME. This is why Explorer for both ME and 2000 look similar despite having little else in common.

Other elements of the scrapped project made its way into XP, but barely compared to what it was supposed to be. I think XP’s fancy login screen was one of them.

If anyone’s interested I’ll try to find where I read all of this. It might’ve been on Paul Thurrott’s Windows Supersite or another site that collected Windows betas.

Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by Lammy on Saturday October 26, 2019 @01:01AM (#21361822)
Windows codename Neptune: https://microsoft.fandom.com/wiki/Microsoft_Neptune

It’s interesting to see twenty year old experiments with flat UI designs considering how dominant that style is today with Android 5, iOS 7, Windows 8, etc.

Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by TheKarateKid on Saturday October 26, 2019 @03:44AM (#21362338)
Indeed. Ironically, I think I remember reading that the Neptune apps’ UI was HTML-based, since Microsoft wanted IE to power everything.

And now many apps use HTML/JS/CSS for styling and rendering.

Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by garaetjjte on Saturday October 26, 2019 @11:34AM (#21364262)
These apps looks like they are made in IE6-era Electron..
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by Lammy on Saturday October 26, 2019 @05:14PM (#21366243)
They are! The same tech powered Active Desktop and the "smart" Explorer sidebars in Windows XP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_Application
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by andrewf on Saturday October 26, 2019 @02:55AM (#21362169)
I think Win2K had higher memory requirements, which meant a more expensive machine for the same performance. (This was always an issue for WinNT and OS/2 versus the DOS/Win9x line)

I think software compat was also lacking. DOS games were still in people's libraries (eg Quake from June '96), and I remember needing an extra 4MB to run those inside Win9x versus booting to DOS mode. That stuff didn't Just Work (tm) on Win2K. For example, http://sandmann.dotster.com/djgpp/DJGPP_W2K.htm is a list of issues with the most popular GCC port to DOS. (The Quake DOS binary was actually built with an earlier version of that compiler)

I remember the WinXP DOS emulation was supposed to be much improved over Win2K, but don't recall specifics.

Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by jdnenej on Saturday October 26, 2019 @01:35AM (#21361925)
It's not the bugs that are an issue with 10. It's the mountains of nagware, spyware and advertisements built in to it.
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by emn13 on Saturday October 26, 2019 @05:13AM (#21362657)
Also the unbelievable amounts of inconsistent interfaces.

There should be some rule internally at Microsoft that institutes a complete ban on new settings UI unless it actually replaces old UI. The amount of times I need to fall back to the old UI is absurd. Also - I'm not sure programmers appreciate how jarring it even is to have the same settings presented in two places. It forces users to construct some kind of mental model of the behind-the-scenes-actual settings, because of course the two dialogs sort of match, but not quite. Usually there are a bunch of settings only in the old dialog, and a few new ones only in the new, and some interactions between settings are meaningful, so... you basically just fiddle till it works or breaks.

Any (significant) UI change is bad. Churn is bad. If you want to change the UI because the old one really isn't good enough anymore, you want to do so as infrequently as possible, and as completely as possible: no two-slightly-inconsistent-UIs-at-once. Realize that every change starts with a serious downside and needs a lot of upside to compensate.

So I get that Microsoft wants to update some of the windows settings stuff (and other integrated apps). But the aim must be for a fairly quick transition; no years of overlap. And if for some reason overlap is absolutely inevitable, then sorry, you're going to have to make both systems 100% equivalent. Yes, that means adding features to the old UI, and adding legacy options to the new UI - but at least that way there's a migration path. The alternative is the mess we have now: little point in even having all those settings, because 99% of users are merely going to be hurt by all those options they cannot actually control correctly.

I'd honestly rather have retained some legacy win95 era controls and have only one control for each option, than this mess. If you're going to fix it... fix it already!

Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by thrower123 on Saturday October 26, 2019 @05:22AM (#21362684)
At least you can drop down to the old Control Panel and get at the settings that they haven't bothered to expose in the new UI.

Unfortunately, you have to do so so often that discoverability of where things are in the new UI suffers. It's not worth bothering to learn, particularly when the new UI is in flux and changing often.

Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by Spearchucker on Saturday October 26, 2019 @02:48AM (#21362151)
I use 10 daily and see no ads. Where does windows 10 show ads?
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by jdnenej on Saturday October 26, 2019 @07:53AM (#21363122)
Candy crush in the sidebar, ads all over the home page/new tab page of the built in browsers. Heavy annoying pushes for Microsoft products like starting Microsoft teams every time you boot when I never installed it or even have an account.
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by AlexDragusin on Saturday October 26, 2019 @05:18AM (#21362667)
I have yet to see ads also, but I do turn off all the unnecessary stuff at installation time. There is this option on Lock Screen settings called Get fun facts, tips, tricks and more on your lock screen and Show more tiles on the Start settings that can bring stuff out and probably some other more spread around, of course they won't make it nicely like Opt out of all ads across Windows just because.
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by mixmastamyk on Saturday October 26, 2019 @02:57AM (#21362177)
IIRC, start tiles, explorer bar, stub shortcuts.
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by reciprocity on Monday October 28, 2019 @08:27PM (#21383226)
Give a non-technical user a copy of Windows 10 and Chrome, wait a few days for the third party ad networks to catch up, and then watch as advertisement after advertisement pop up in the lower right hand corner.

I'd also like to mention the Microsoft News program as being an annoying delivery mechanism for such content (it seems to have some relationship with the browser based on how the user uses the Internet).

Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by eitland on Saturday October 26, 2019 @04:57AM (#21362599)
Also the logon screen that is now delightful except someone has sold on the idea that they should add clickbait ads for msn and bing - even on pro and enterprise Windows..!

I imagine management in Microsoft is like a fight in the wheelhouse:

Someone trying to make the best OS there is.

Others trying to do ads everywhere like Google.

Some trying to be a reaponsible reliable company, others somehow managing to to crazy price hikes.

Some trying to be friends with open source, others pushing Edge really hard (but, in fairness, still not as ugly as Google was pushing Chrome at its worst.)

Etc etc

Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by 7thaccount on Saturday October 26, 2019 @11:53AM (#21364393)
If you use the windows search in the bottom left corner, you'll see all sorts of advertisements when you search for stuff on your computer.
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by smrtinsert on Saturday October 26, 2019 @09:19AM (#21363474)
Same. I suppose if you view lock screen as an "ad"... I built my own 10 home box which has had no problems for years now.
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by monkeydreams on Saturday October 26, 2019 @04:26AM (#21362498)
If you turn them off you dont see them. It's a dark pattern but not completely black.
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by thaumasiotes on Saturday October 26, 2019 @03:53AM (#21362371)
In the start menu.
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by iforgotpassword on Saturday October 26, 2019 @05:49AM (#21362792)
XP had a bad start due to relative slowness on the hardware on release (just like Vista).

But as you said, from sp2 days on it was rock solid and reliable. And since everyone skipped Vista, and a notable amount of people even 7, it was "here to stay". While any previous version of Windows was replaced within 2 to 4 years, many used XP for close to a decade. Some grew up on this OS.

When 7 came along it was a welcome evolution of Windows without breaking too many workflows that relied on muscle memory, for better or for worse.

8 was a clusterduck just like Vista, but for different reasons. Vista fell behind schedule and was unpolished and also, Microsoft overestimated the advancements in hardware power that would be made during its development time. With 8 the problem was that Microsoft went "all in" with conquering the mobile market. The ambitious idea of creating a unified user experience on every platform, while designing every thing as mobile first and then just slamming it onto Windows on the desktop. Obviously they didn't nail this first try, and although Windows phone 8.1 was a really solid user experience we know how this ended. So the primary reason why this modern UI was conceived was eventually gone, but by the time the decision to scrap Windows mobile was made, it was already on the desktop, but at least now you can make changes to the UI without thinking about phones. (just tablets and game consoles...)

With 10 they're still to this day working on creating a consistent modern UX on desktop. I'm still highly skeptical whether that was the right thing to do at all. Considering the current trend everything seems to be eventually web based, and those couple business use cases probably wouldn't care if Windows 10 still looked like XP.

And that all didn't even address the couple major duckups they introduced with updates. Older Windows had its problems, but that's a whole new dimension here. Some ex Microsoft employee claimed on his YouTube channel that Microsoft massively scaled down their own QA. Wouldn't be too surprised if that was the case.

Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by pfranz on Saturday October 26, 2019 @01:49AM (#21361963)
I grew up with Windows. My jobs used Unix/Linux and I switched to Mac at home before Vista came out. I got a job using Windows during the Windows 8-10 transition. During that 10 year gap I'd help friends and family setup printers and stuff. I was aghast at the things that hadn't changed in the 10+ years. I really wished I had written it up because I fell back into things quickly. One thing I still remember is how often you get updates requiring a reboot--in macOS it's a few times a year and in Linux it's only when a specific component (like the kernel) gets updated.
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by alexis_fr on Saturday October 26, 2019 @03:21AM (#21362247)
Clicking around.

For example, setting your computer’s IP or gateway. Control panel -> Network -> right-click on the “IP interfaces” among a list of 5 abscon names -> Details -> Advanced -> Details -> And you can’t freely type the new IP, you have to use their fields with 4 numbers separated by dots.

Everything was like this. Installing Maven? You need to set a system property, it’s 15 clicks including 6 on a “Details” or “Advanced settings” button. They wanted to hide complexity behind “Advanced” buttons but they hid the wrong things, because each dialog was full of info you’d never use, and what you wanted was inevitably under the “Advanced” button.

Installing new software? Welcome to the installation assistant. We’ll guide you through the 20 clicks, including the mass-unticking of additional software we’ll inevitably select by default, notably the Ask Toolbar when you install Java. If you’re setting up a dev machine you had a dozen programs to set up, each of them requiring a dozen steps of a dozen clicks.

Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by MikusR on Saturday October 26, 2019 @06:34AM (#21362917)
Windows+x => powershell => ipconfig
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by stinos on Saturday October 26, 2019 @03:50AM (#21362358)
in Linux it's only when a specific component (like the kernel) gets updated

Fair enugh, but depending on what distro you run that seems to be fairly often as well. Like, more than 'a few times' a year.

Then again if you dont run a server for which downtime is a true loss, or something alike, is rebooting that much of a problem (honest question)?

Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by pfranz on Sunday October 27, 2019 @02:13AM (#21368128)
I haven't really paid much attention, but I'm pretty sure CentOS/RHEL only do kernel updates with distro updates. If so, it's about once or twice a year: https://access.redhat.com/articles/3078

In practice, my companies have done them less frequently. Kernel packages are less often about security patches and more often around a magic combination of kernel+GPU driver+software--I think one of them paid Red Hat for custom cuts.

As for maintaining a personal machine, that distro would probably suggest rebooting more often than RHEL (you'd also have to effectively logout/"restart" for any core package for your Desktop Environment or X). I haven't measured, but I feel like my Synology gets updated every few months.

As for the impact of rebooting. Windows Updates (and macOS updates) are more than just a reboot. It's often an unknown amount of time. Even for a normal reboot, it's really really nice to just leave everything open so you can pick up where you left off. Personal or work it's more than just a browser, but terminals I have open, shell history, vim sessions.

It's like a recent article about fast software https://craigmod.com/essays/fast_software/

Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by Aeolun on Saturday October 26, 2019 @04:13AM (#21362447)
If I have a few tens of applications open that all have their own separate state that is lost on reboot, then it’s fairly annoying to reboot because one thing updated.
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by stinos on Saturday October 26, 2019 @07:44AM (#21363101)
Maybe it's what exactly you do then/how. I.e. apart from a REPL session in which I maually typed a bunch of commands, I don't seem to have that problem. Editors/IDEs/browsers all persist open documents/view state etc between runs.
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by 2ion on Saturday October 26, 2019 @05:12AM (#21362649)
Windows XP, Vista, and 7 were all fine. I just enabled the classic design and things largely worked and looked the same in key UX aspects. I'm still only using 7 (virtualized) and what I've seen from 10 on colleagues' computers looks much worse and more complicated UI than what xp-v-7 ever did. Don't even get me started how difficult it is to get your hands on Windows 10 LTSC as a private individual -- which would be the sucessor to 7, if any. I sure won't ever touch a consumer version of 10...even if it's called (pseudo) pro.
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by thrower123 on Saturday October 26, 2019 @05:25AM (#21362697)
> Don't even get me started how difficult it is to get your hands on Windows 10 LTSC as a private individual

This is really a damn shame, because it is far away the best Windows distribution ever. If I didn't have access to it through MSDN, I'd pay a couple hundred bucks for a license.

Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by MikusR on Saturday October 26, 2019 @06:35AM (#21362923)
Getting LTSC is as simple as getting Windows Embeded that it replaced.
Re:Bill Gates on Windows Usability (2003) by Shorel on Saturday October 26, 2019 @06:41AM (#21362944)
> People claimed to "love" XP, but they are all rose tinted in memory.

I still boot an XP partition from time to time. To play old games that simply run with issues in more modern Windows. The issue is XP had the right APIs for game development, and then MS deprecated some great technologies in favour of XBox centered ones.

In new games I still miss the hardware accelerated positional audio XP has.