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Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by unlinked_dll on Friday October 25, 2019 @03:20PM (#21358322)
Internet usage starts with users querying information they want, and services learning/adapting to deliver information in a format/context based on their activity. This has created some stellar search tools, a personalized network of services and communities available to people, and made the internet a paradise for new content from all over the world.

Despite that all the information in the world is available to us, we only seek out what we want to see/hear/read and then get fed new information based on those queries. It doesn't lead to free exchange of ideas and values, it has created polarized societies where we are digitally segregated by our own sense of identity and community.

People talk a lot about the political side of this, the "echo chambers" online. But I think it's worse than that. We see racial segregation on Twitter, feedback loops of content on YouTube that reinforce themselves, news outlets tailoring their content for users that reach them from their own site and optimizing for usage metrics that feed usage metrics... and we all are in love with it.

It reminds me of Farenheit 451 in the sense that this almost-dystopia wasn't created by some fascist dictator or single-party state; we built it ourselves. We wanted it.

That's not to say there isn't beauty on the internet, and we live in an era where more people talk and share and love and fight more than ever with language and ideas. It's just a strange departure from where most futurists thought we were going to be.

Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by godelski on Friday October 25, 2019 @06:44PM (#21359969)
> We wanted it.

I'm not entirely convinced this is accurate. It definitely is in part, but not in whole. We wanted these better search tools and we like recommendation systems. But I know a lot of people are frustrated with algorithms like YouTube's recommendation system trapping them. (e.g. watch one Joe Rogan video and you get firehosed with more JRE videos). The thing is we also don't notice that this reinforcement also pushes us away from one another. But the solution sounds very similar to the solution to the complaint. People are complaining about being walled in by the algorithm (I for one am one of those people). People are asking for new suggestions. As in new topics, not just other youtubers doing the same thing. I think the difference is that it has become so obvious now that we're noticing and saying "wait, that'd too far."

Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by pacala on Saturday October 26, 2019 @12:49AM (#21361787)
What is the alternative? Our brains simply cannot cope with an endless sea of fresh faces, each of them requiring an acuqaintance effort, only to disappear in the mass of unfamiliar faces within minutes. The known-host / fresh-guest model lessens the burden, as the host becomes a known quantity after a while. With their temperament, leanings, quirks, idiosyncrasies and all that. Conversely, I've observed myself following a certain guest through a string of hosts, which ended up working well as a host discovery mechanism, better than browsing through random youtube recommendations. Note to self: patent this.
Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by zonidjan on Friday October 25, 2019 @11:05PM (#21361436)
I would love, so much, for Youtube to just stop targeting recommendations. At least then I'd see new things once in a while...
Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by maccard on Saturday October 26, 2019 @02:42AM (#21362125)
Ivr seen what YouTube recommends for my partner and I definitely don't want that in my feed. I'm not sure that what YT is doing now is the best, but it's better than nothing. At least I get recommendations for topics in intery in, not just whatever the latest insta trend is
Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by mackrevinack on Sunday October 27, 2019 @04:31AM (#21368493)
ive started to use freetube on desktop and newpipe on mobile. they are not great for discovery at all but at least I can watch the odd [insert-channel-i-dont-really-like-here] video every once in a blue moon without then being harassed for weeks/months/years after to watch more from the same channel
Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by brokenmachine on Sunday October 27, 2019 @11:40PM (#21374064)
I've always opened youtube in a new private window to do that, especially for sports that I'm interested in but I don't want to get spoilers for later.

I think it works because I don't see those topics in my feeds.

Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by buboard on Saturday October 26, 2019 @08:13AM (#21363171)
Things like my twitter feed are curated though and I selected the people who curate my stuff. So if it was some kind of echo chamber, i totally willingly chose to do that.
Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by SpicyLemonZest on Friday October 25, 2019 @07:46PM (#21360359)
But does Youtube's recommendation system trap you any more than old media? I remember having much the same feeling with library books. I've read 10 pages of this author's thoughts and I really want to pick up something else - but I don't have time to go to the library this week, so I guess I'm stuck reading the other 290 pages.
Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by Infinitesimus on Friday October 25, 2019 @11:50PM (#21361601)
> I don't have time to go to the library this week ...

That's a very different situation though.

This is as if you went to the library and the librarian only showed you other books by that author and the books that might be (poorly) related to the one you just read.

Like books with similar words in the title or books that people grabbed after that one.

YouTube is pure trash for discovery 90% of the time because the algorithm is tuned for addiction : you are fed content that is designed to keep you hooked and it will always, always bias towards that because that's the business decision.

I'd love to see a recommendation engine that intentionally surfaced "similar but different in key ways"

Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by Spooky23 on Saturday October 26, 2019 @09:56AM (#21363678)
YouTube would decide that since you engage with that book, you want more books from that author and put those books at the top of the catalog for you.
Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by degenerate on Friday October 25, 2019 @03:26PM (#21358377)
It's almost as if... shiny new technology can't solve the human condition. Have you tried turning it off, and on again?
Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by traverseda on Saturday October 26, 2019 @09:19PM (#21367344)
I mean we've had the technology to solve the human condition since what, the 40s?
Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by delogan on Friday November 01, 2019 @08:53PM (#21425172)
now I’m curious
Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by traverseda on Monday November 04, 2019 @10:38AM (#21442598)
Nuclear weapons.
Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by fouc on Saturday October 26, 2019 @02:34AM (#21362102)
I saw an interesting argument that we've always had the so called filter bubbles before the internet, it's only more noticeable NOW, because of public spaces like twitter.
Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by anorakoverflow on Saturday October 26, 2019 @03:34AM (#21362304)
There’s a classic theory in communication science by the German researcher Elisabeth Noelle-Neumann called the “spiral of silence”[1]. It basically says that people have an idea of the general public opinion on a topic, and in case their own opinion differs too much, they will stay silent in order not to be excluded from the group. This was classically seen with the negative result that the publicly acceptable opinion may not be the same as the majority opinion, as more and more people stay silent in a kind of spiral.

What we’re seeing today in online spaces is the possibility of people connecting online, forming their own bubbles of people with their own spirals – it has become much easier to sidestep the “general” spiral of silence.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_of_silence

Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by marchenko on Saturday October 26, 2019 @03:57AM (#21362386)
The other side of this coin is the Preference Cascade, a concept from economics [0] wherein people formerly in a Spiral of Silence discover that their supposedly unpopular opinions actually have a reservoir of public support. After publicly remaining silent or falsifying their preferences, they suddenly switch to expressing their true preferences. This can make public opinion seem quite volatile.

[0]Tmur Kuran https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674707580

Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by abtinf on Friday October 25, 2019 @03:23PM (#21358346)
> It doesn't lead to free exchange of ideas and values, it has created polarized societies

Technology created polarized society? Before internet search, we were better educated and understood each other better?

Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by ltbarcly3 on Friday October 25, 2019 @03:36PM (#21358486)
Newspapers were at least, historically at least in the 20th century, were expected to inform and keep a separation between opinion and news. They clearly had a political slant, but they couldn't just ignore facts that they found inconvenient, or only mention them in hit pieces meant to discredit them. Exceptions to this, like Yellow Journalism and Hearst's use of his papers for personal and political ends were at least considered failures of journalism in hindsight.

In the Soviet Union they kept a tight control on the media, and Pravda was controlled by the ruling party to amplify it's message as a tool of propaganda. It would ignore inconvenient facts and stories based on their propaganda value, or if something inconvenient was too well known to ignore it would mention it only to discredit it.

Today many people get most of their news from sites like Breitbart or RawStory. Doing this is voluntarily signing up for Pravda like propaganda. Yes, we have a free society and you aren't restricted to a single source of news like Pravda, but if people intentionally and voluntarily limit themselves to a site that is manipulating stories in the same way as Pravda and for the same motivations, we just have two groups of oppositely propagandized people, and of course that will increase polarization. There is no expectation that these sites would uphold journalistic standards, be generally honest beyond when it is convenient, and their bias is considered a feature.

Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by tsimionescu on Saturday October 26, 2019 @01:10AM (#21361853)
> They clearly had a political slant, but they couldn't just ignore facts that they found inconvenient, or only mention them in hit pieces meant to discredit them.

Newspapers ignored inconvenienent facts all the time, probably for all of human history. Even when they don't completely ignore some facts, they often choose to make a big deal of some facts and not of others.

Some examples of the former would be the missing reporting on the US atrocities in South America, except maybe the Contra deal. The 100 catholic priests murdered in SA by US or US-supported troops were never mentioned, but the Soviet murder of 1 priest was an international scandal (as well it should be, but the others should have been an even bigger scandal).

A very good example of the latter should be the COINTELPRO[1] revelation of the FBI actively seeking to blackmail and even assassinate members of civil rights groups, including an attempt to convince MLK to commit suicide, threatening to reveal his extra-marital affairs otherwise. This was reported to some extent, but then Watergate happened at around the same time, and, despite being much less worrying for normal people, it became one of the largest scandals in media, and COINTELPRO was forgotten from public discourse.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by wwweston on Saturday October 26, 2019 @12:01PM (#21364437)
This is a bit like missing the distinction between, say, systemic if unintended background racism and ideological white supremacy.

There's the matter of both motive and degree. Of course newsprint journalism always had its issues (heh). Of course there's always been various struggles to rise to journalistic standards of objective reporting. And of course there's always been people with agendas who wanted to bend reporting a certain way.

It still wasn't anywhere near as common for outlets to aspire to be Pravda or for individuals to aspire to read from an outlet that was.

Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by tsimionescu on Saturday October 26, 2019 @12:27PM (#21364589)
There are many differences.

For one, few in the Soviet Union trusted Pravda, whileoat people in the US trust the picture of the world that the newspapers present. So, while the US newspapers were overall far more correct than Pravda, they were nevertheless much more effective propaganda tools, when they did choose, intentionally or through deep-seated biases, to 'massage' the truth.

Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by fao_ on Friday October 25, 2019 @09:29PM (#21360984)
> Newspapers were at least, historically at least in the 20th century, were expected to inform and keep a separation between opinion and news. They clearly had a political slant, but they couldn't just ignore facts that they found inconvenient, or only mention them in hit pieces meant to discredit them. Exceptions to this, like Yellow Journalism and Hearst's use of his papers for personal and political ends were at least considered failures of journalism in hindsight.

This is only partly true. One example that comes to mind, in the early 20th Century, Winston Churchill deliberately started a successful newspaper whose sole purpose was to disarm a general strike by workers who were underpaid. Not only did it suceed but Churchill bragged about it in Parliament to the opposition party after the strike had been defeated!

> In the Soviet Union they kept a tight control on the media, and Pravda was controlled by the ruling party to amplify it's message as a tool of propaganda. It would ignore inconvenient facts and stories based on their propaganda value, or if something inconvenient was too well known to ignore it would mention it only to discredit it.

I think it's worth mentioning here how most media companies are totally or partly controlled by the acting CEO of FOX News, Rupert Murdoch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Murdoch). In the UK he controls almost all paper-based newspapers that the public read, in addition to most non-BBC channels. As a result, the papers have a staunch xenophobic, neoliberal attitude -- to the point of openly calling leading members of the opposition party in the UK "Maoist" (One newspaper in particular published 1500 words of fan fiction about the opposition party's socialist policies, mixed in with the ordinary news) and naming and shaming members of the UK high court for ruling that does not agree with the paper's stance. The papers have been known to publish outright lies about the European Union -- to the point the EU set up a website specifically to debunk the lies published in mainly Murdoch-controlled papers: https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by fao_ on Saturday October 26, 2019 @02:52AM (#21362159)
It is worth adding that the strike failed because a majority of the people involved could no longer feed themselves, rather than any moral imperative.
Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by zonidjan on Friday October 25, 2019 @11:10PM (#21361456)
The difficulty is, it's often very difficult to find news from an organization who isn't "like Breitbart or RawStory", to some extent.
Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by barry-cotter on Friday October 25, 2019 @08:53PM (#21360762)
> Newspapers were at least, historically at least in the 20th century, were expected to inform and keep a separation between opinion and news. They clearly had a political slant, but they couldn't just ignore facts that they found inconvenient, or only mention them in hit pieces meant to discredit them. Exceptions to this, like Yellow Journalism and Hearst's use of his papers for personal and political ends were at least considered failures of journalism in hindsight.

This is part of the myth making that took hold after the New Deal, when the Establishment decided how things were going to be and made it so. If you have licensing powers over broadcast media you can use this to ensure that discussion stays inside the bounds of discourse you deem acceptable. Because these local media companies often had both broadcast and publishing arms they had a strong incentive not to piss off the regulators who could take away their broadcasting licenses.

This long period of manufactured consent lasted until the people who realised it was artificial retired or died and then technology allowed more diversity of opinion. Cable and talk radio allowed many, many more voices to be heard and expanded the Overton window, bringing the US back to normal politics where people really, really hate each other unless there’s an external enemy to hate more.

In the immediate post colonial period Aaron Burr killed Hamilton in a duel. In 1856 Preston Brooks beat Charles Sumner with a cane on the floor of Congress. Andrew Jackson was held in much the same esteem by large swathes of the US population as Trump is now. In the 1960s there were over 3,000 domestic bombings and riots and demonstrations aplenty.

The media being hyper partisan is not new. What’s new is how obvious it is. It took decades for Walter Duranty’s lies about the Holodmor, the Ukrainian Holocaust to be exposed, and the Pulitzer Prize Committee still hasn’t revoked it. This for a cover up of millions of deaths in the pages of the NYT.

The prestige press is no more unbiased than Mother Jones or Breitbart.

https://deadline.com/2016/11/shocked-by-trump-new-york-times...

> For starters, it’s important to accept that the New York Times has always — or at least for many decades — been a far more editor-driven, and self-conscious, publication than many of those with which it competes. Historically, the Los Angeles Times, where I worked twice, for instance, was a reporter-driven, bottom-up newspaper. Most editors wanted to know, every day, before the first morning meeting: “What are you hearing? What have you got?”

> It was a shock on arriving at the New York Times in 2004, as the paper’s movie editor, to realize that its editorial dynamic was essentially the reverse. By and large, talented reporters scrambled to match stories with what internally was often called “the narrative.” We were occasionally asked to map a narrative for our various beats a year in advance, square the plan with editors, then generate stories that fit the pre-designated line.

Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by eldavido on Friday October 25, 2019 @09:30PM (#21360986)
This is a great point and pretty much mirrors my own views. I read the NYT but I'm under no pretense it's "neutral" or "fair and balanced". It is a highly partisan, albeit factual, news source that is selectively edited and clearly pushes a very specific worldview, through which every story is filtered. This worldview includes beliefs like: unions are always good, capitalism is at best suspect and makes a few rich, at worse a primary driver of inequality, all inequality is bad, middle-class wage stagnation is a huge problem, all government spending is good, regulation is the answer to any problem and any who oppose it are misguided/stupid, all law enforcement is racist/generally suspect, and my personal favorite, that some cabal of powerful people meet and regularly conspire to screw over ordinary "middle class Americans" (my wife and I call these hypothetical people "mustache twirlers", generally evil white men with white Persian lap cats and snifters of expensive cognac).

As a practical matter, I think the only thing a person can do is consciously seek out both sides of the story. Read a credible conservative daily (WSJ, Chicago Tribune) and a left-leaning Sunday paper (WaPo/NYT)/news magazine. Get both sides of the issue and see which you find more persuasive.

Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by throwaway87378 on Saturday October 26, 2019 @02:00AM (#21361995)
> a left-leaning Sunday paper (WaPo/NYT)/news magazine.

The fact that either the Washington Post or the New York Times is considered left-leaning is one of the problems in US media. They are both corporate rags pushing the neo-liberal plutocrat agenda. Try Jacobin or the London Review of Books as a somewhat left of center starters.

Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by Ellington on Friday November 01, 2019 @11:53PM (#21425790)
WaPo are NYT do not lean left in any way. They are neoliberal media and push a corporatist agenda. Look at how they treat Bernie Sanders, the first leftist to ever run for president of the USA in my lifetime.
Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by wwweston on Saturday October 26, 2019 @12:13PM (#21364516)
More than one news source is smart.

The above description of the NYT, however, is (a) not only a conservative's idea of what an opposing partisan newspaper would look like, it's almost a parody of such an idea (b) only sustainable through the lens of confirmation bias.

Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by ltbarcly3 on Sunday October 27, 2019 @02:27AM (#21368161)
Yep, I think you're making good points, but you missed my point. I said newspapers were 'expected' to present information to provide information to readers. Your criticisms can't even be applied to Breitbart, or Rawstory. They aren't trying, and there is no expectation that they are, to be presenting information to inform readers of what is happening in the world. They are explicitly biased and delivering propaganda, designed to agitate their readers into an emotional response. There is no expectation that they would not do this, people are going to these sites to reaffirm their stupid biases in service of some agenda which will never benefit them.

It's a huge difference. In one case you have a system meant to deliver information to inform, and which can be criticized if it fails to do so, which it often (or even mostly) failed at. Then there is these new media sources of 'information', which are not even trying, and nobody expects to try. One is a subversion of the standards which are explicitly expected, and the other is a system that has no standards whatsoever.

Re:Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you'... by platz on Friday October 25, 2019 @11:17PM (#21361479)
Wanting information to be free forced companies to rely on advertising and to spy on us.