News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by komali2 on Thursday October 24, 2019 @01:01PM (#21346573)
This is a pretty fun submission. I like peering into the lives of computer users that don't have the level of computer literacy I'm used to day to day. It's a good reminder.

> This answer is not helpful. There is no start button.

Because it's just a little windows icon now - easy to forget that that doesn't just make sense to some people.

> Thank you, Brian- I would surely never have looked there, for anything, never mind notepad! It is on my start box now.

Some people just haven't/won't learned the grammar and vocabulary of computer literacy. I think this person means "start menu?" But it looks like a box to them so that's how they described it.

A while ago there was an article where a woman was trying to user testing in a mall and instead found an old guy who had literally never touched a computer. Reading that experience was fascinating.

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by usrusr on Thursday October 24, 2019 @03:57PM (#21348566)
"A while ago there was an article where a woman was trying to user testing in a mall and instead found an old guy who had literally never touched a computer."

I believe that this approach to UX testing is to blame for some of the most infuriating UI changes: when you design UI experiments with actual users you do that because you want objectivity. And what could be more objective than selecting "perfect blanks" as you test subjects?

The problem with this approach is that everything you gain in objectivity is lost many times over in relevancy. Those people are not representative of your actual users, not even when you are building a geriatry self-serve kiosk.

Unfortunately, once that kind of experiment has taken place, it inevitably dominates all other concerns. Every critical voice will reliably get shouted down with "We have the numbers to prove it. We did science, you didn't. You are just a grumpy old power-user disrespecting the needs of the weak".

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by pmontra on Friday October 25, 2019 @01:51AM (#21352242)
I agree. That old guy is not a computer user, so there is no need to build a UI for him.

To further this point, imagine testing HN with people that can't read. Do we rebuild it for children under 6 or do we wait they learn to read and grow to an age that let them make sense of the contents of the site?

And a car analogy/tale. If you drive different models of different makers you find many little differences and unobvius ways to operate some controls. I remember I had to read the manual of a rental car 25 years ago to figure how to reverse. I had to lift a ring on the stick and I never saw something like that in my life as a passenger or as a driver before (and I barely saw automatic gears by then.) That was not very discoverable. However one shouldn't bother to design car controls for elderly people like my mother. She never got a driving license, she'll never will and yet she had no problems living their life. Not everybody needs computers.

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by nitrogen on Friday October 25, 2019 @02:26AM (#21352427)
"We have the numbers to prove it. We did science, you didn't. You are just a grumpy old power-user disrespecting the needs of the weak".

Well put. What's the counterargument? There has to be a way to solve this problem.

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by nickjj on Thursday October 24, 2019 @07:00PM (#21350060)
> I like peering into the lives of computer users that don't have the level of computer literacy I'm used to day to day. It's a good reminder.

Yep and sometimes it happens in unexpected places. I just went to the dentist the other day.

The receptionist accidentally moved her task bar to be oriented vertically on the left and couldn't get it back to the horizontal bottom position.

We're on very friendly terms so she asked if I could show her how to fix it which involved going around the desk. Naturally I requested she hides any windows that might violate HIPAA compliance before I swung around.

It was interesting to see her facial expressions and "whoa!" reactions when I mentioned how you can left click and drag the task bar to different spots and how to prevent this from happening in the future by right clicking and locking the task bar.

What was really interesting to me was when I said right click on the mouse, her eyes immediately looked at my hand on the mouse so you can't take left and right clicking as granted knowledge that everyone has as muscle memory.

This is someone who has been using that computer for years to manage appointments and whatever else, but things like right clicking the task bar is a move that very few people do out in the wild unless they are approaching enthusiast levels. She's not out of the loop with tech either. She has a smartphone and does a lot of things with it.

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by flukus on Thursday October 24, 2019 @10:34PM (#21351305)
> The receptionist accidentally moved her task bar to be oriented vertically on the left and couldn't get it back to the horizontal bottom position.

A lot of people hate the lack of features in gnome, but this is why I think KDE's style of configurability is a terrible idea. I can give my dad a gnome desktop and it just works, give him a KDE one and 3 hours later there will be six menus bar taking up half the vertical area of the screen, and that's from a locked config. As a power user I'd prefer text configuration or to use the separate tweak-ui app anyway.

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by dhruvmittal on Friday October 25, 2019 @09:48AM (#21354875)
The thing that happens online, and especially in the linux space, is that the people who participate in the conversation are not the people who the feature-set is restricted for.
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by Noumenon72 on Thursday October 24, 2019 @08:48PM (#21350715)
Yes, when I volunteered to help senior citizens with computers right click was something none of them knew they could do, nor could they remember it from week to week. Phones and web sites are much easier.
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by Terretta on Friday October 25, 2019 @01:07AM (#21352075)
Remember how much flack Apple got from tech pundits when they got rid of the other buttons and the middle clickable scrolling wheel? “Only one button? Savages!” But Apple was acting on observation of non-expert users, democratizing computing.

Today it’s interesting to see the favored device at both kindergartens and retirement homes: iPads.

Yet iPad’s also fine as my daily driver.

Computing is entering its appliance age.

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by whoopdedo on Friday October 25, 2019 @01:23AM (#21352136)
They didn't "get rid of it" so to say. The Macintosh only ever had one button on the standard mouse. I can't recall any Apple computer shipping with a multi-button pointing device until the Magic Mouse.
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by pmontra on Friday October 25, 2019 @01:33AM (#21352169)
Right click is still here, with one button and many possible modifiers

https://www.macworld.co.uk/how-to/mac/right-click-3610351

I don't own a Mac so I don't know how new Mac users discover how to do it. I remember there is something like a right click on Macs and I asked how to do it last time I had to use one for a few minutes. But if there are people that don't explore a UI with a visible right button, what are they doing with invisible controls?

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by bananasbandanas on Friday October 25, 2019 @10:33AM (#21355322)
I used to give basic computer courses for seniors when I was still in highschool to earn a little money.

One would always let go of the mouse to click. He would position the mouse, lift his hand a few centimeters above the mouse button and then press down on it fast. Sometimes worked, mostly didn't because the mouse would move during the click. Now imagine him trying double clicks..

Another guy would make extremely detailed notes. I would show him some setting in a dropdown menu of Word, and he would perfectly draw these menues in his notebook. By the end, he probably hat 20 pages of beautiful notes, it was actually quite impressive.

[dead]
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by LeoPanthera on Thursday October 24, 2019 @07:52PM (#21350367)
OK I know it's off topic but I can't resist.

https://youtu.be/WEWG6kSYqlY

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by chapium on Thursday October 24, 2019 @11:21PM (#21351572)
Its still a hipaa violation to give you access. She also can't be trusted with patient data if she is that incompetent with her "data tool".
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by Filligree on Thursday October 24, 2019 @01:08PM (#21346663)
> A while ago there was an article where a woman was trying to user testing in a mall and instead found an old guy who had literally never touched a computer. Reading that experience was fascinating.

I missed that article. It sounds fascinating -- I don't suppose you have a link?

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by er3s on Thursday October 24, 2019 @01:17PM (#21346786)
This was absolutely fascinating... and underscores the fact that the world has little patience for the technically uninitiated.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2740038

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by m0zg on Thursday October 24, 2019 @09:25PM (#21350933)
If you've never seen user testing where users try to use your software, it's one of the most eye opening experiences a software engineer could have. I've seen a number of these tests at MS in early 00's when I worked there. It's as though the people using your software are from another planet, with a completely different set of rules in their head as to how programs should be used.

This kind of exposure tends to generate a lot of empathy towards the user, as well as to the demands of the designers and user experience specialists. It also helps engender the right kind of intuition as to the level of UX complexity and cognitive load non-engineer users are prepared to tolerate. And that level is very, very low indeed.

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by pradn on Thursday October 24, 2019 @01:12PM (#21346720)
The windows button looks more like a flag than a window, nothing to do with starting anything!
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by dTal on Thursday October 24, 2019 @01:33PM (#21346984)
The "Start" button was never really about starting things in the first place. After all, clicking "Start" was the first step to shutting down your computer! Perfectly intuitive...

Now it doesn't even say "Start" on it, and yet they persist in calling it the "Start menu".

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by cesarb on Thursday October 24, 2019 @02:25PM (#21347593)
> The "Start" button was never really about starting things in the first place.

What did you find when you opened the Start menu (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d3/Windows_95_St...)? Programs (click on one to start the program), Documents (click to start a program handling the file), Settings (click to start a Control Panel applet), Find (click to start a find dialog), Help (click to start the help viewer), Run (click to start an executable by name), ...

> After all, clicking "Start" was the first step to shutting down your computer!

You are, after all, starting the shutdown procedure.

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by simcop2387 on Thursday October 24, 2019 @06:43PM (#21349953)
This reminds me of the best "feature" that windows 95 had to me as a kid. If you clicked the start menu, then hit alt + -, you'd get the standard menu for playing with a window. Minimize, Maximize, Move (greyed out), and a few others. Importantly though was that Close was an option. Clicking it would remove the start button. This lead to lots of fun playing with computers in stores at the time, closing the start buttons on them all.

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20120213-00/?p=83...

This was before the advent of "windows keyboards" and the menu key on them.

EDIT changed link to a better one

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by whoopdedo on Thursday October 24, 2019 @08:42PM (#21350666)
I never stumbled into that one. What I do remember from Windows 95b through 7 is if the keyboard focus was on the taskbar and you pressed Alt+F4, it brought up the Shutdown/Restart/Logoff dialog. That made it possible to cleanly shutdown the computer blindly from the keyboard. Win,Esc,Alt+F4,R,Enter
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by Noumenon72 on Thursday October 24, 2019 @09:01PM (#21350796)
It's Win+X, U, U now.
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by connicpu on Thursday October 24, 2019 @11:38PM (#21351648)
That's still a thing, the focus just needs to be on the desktop!
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by ygra on Friday October 25, 2019 @02:52AM (#21352551)
Both the Desktop and the taskbar belong to Explorer and trying to close that is what triggers that dialog. Both still work in Windows 10.
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by pierrec on Thursday October 24, 2019 @10:05PM (#21351154)
You can still do pretty much the same thing. Win+D, Alt+F4.
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by blibble on Thursday October 24, 2019 @07:07PM (#21350103)
move worked to begin with, that was even more fun

they fixed it some way through Win98 I thought...

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by dTal on Thursday October 24, 2019 @05:19PM (#21349291)
Yes, every verb can be prefixed by "start". There's no functionality that could not be squeezed into your explanatory framework. But personally I think it's a real stretch to say that, say, viewing your collection of documents is "starting" anything (and starting the shutdown procedure is still bordering on obtuse).

No, the point of the Start menu was to provide a root node to a navigable hierarchy of all of Window's available functionality. Calling it "Start" makes sense from the perspective of the act of navigation - it is the user's "start point". While logical, I think this metaphor was subverted in many ways even when it was new; the hierarchy afforded by the Start menu was neither particularly well structured nor even the easiest way to access much of its functionality (it seemed to compete with "My Computer" for the title of "blessed root node").

Nowadays it seems that it is not even possible to navigate to all Windows functionality through the "Start menu".

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by com2kid on Thursday October 24, 2019 @02:31PM (#21347686)
> After all, clicking "Start" was the first step to shutting down your computer! Perfectly intuitive...

Ah yes, because the competition's UI of having you click on an icon of a literal piece of fruit to shutdown the computer makes more sense!

You can of course push the power button and Windows will go ahead and gracefully shut down, been that way since at least XP, if not 98 on computers that supported it!

Shutting down become a rather destructive option, putting it as a first level item on the task bar would lead to accidental clicks. Putting it as a first level menu item on the most prominent UI feature of the entire OS seems like a decent alternative!

> Now it doesn't even say "Start" on it, and yet they persist in calling it the "Start menu".

Eh, and we still say we save stuff to "disk". Never mind that it probably isn't even remotely disk shaped.

If I am writing instructions for a website, should I tell people to tap or click on things?

The pantomime for talking on the telephone is to stick thumb and pinky finger out to make it look like a device that a lot of people under 20 have possibly never even seen.

Starting the shutdown process is hardly the worst English faux pas the technology industry has made!

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by signal11 on Thursday October 24, 2019 @07:38PM (#21350293)
The history of Windows 95 is fascinating. The Mac had a GUI, but overall the penetration of GUIs was very low. Windows 3.1 was getting popular, but Microsoft knew they had to something special to make GUIs mainstream (remember, DOS still ruled) and expand the market for PCs to people who'd never considered buying a computer.

It was a different time. The Windows 95 team had this idea of a "beginner's UI" to make computers more approachable -- an idea they subsequently shelved. But their research told them that:

> Beginning users and many intermediates relied almost exclusively on visible cues for finding commands. They relied on (and found intuitive) menu bars and tool bars, but did not use pop-up (or "context") menus, even after training

Ironically newer UI designers have forgotten that 'visible cues' lesson -- both on Windows 10's Flat UI and on touch interfaces such as iPad OS, which imho suffers from really poor discoverability.

> Although we abandoned the idea of a separate shell for beginners, we salvaged its most useful features: single-click access, high visibility, and menu-based interaction. We mocked up a number of representations in Visual Basic and tested them with users of all experience levels, not just beginners, because we knew that the design solution would need to work well for users of varying experience levels. Figure 5 shows the final Start Menu, with the Programs sub-menu open. The final Start Menu integrated functions other than starting programs, to give users a single-button home base in the UI.

(Here's a picture of what earlier iterations of the UI looked like: https://imgur.com/IWCGPzU)

These extracts and image are from Kent Sullivan's very readable "The Windows 95 user interface: a case study in usability engineering": https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=238611 (previously discussed on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12330899)

The upshot is: "Start" is just a label that worked well during UX testing, what mattered more was the anchored, affordance-rich, highly consistent button that let you interact with the GUI in a predictable way.

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by Asooka on Thursday October 24, 2019 @07:38PM (#21350288)
"Start" does not refer to starting things, it refers to the first button you need to click to make the computer do things, i.e. it's the starting point for doing anything. In a bare Windows 95 install, you have your "My Computer" and "My Documents" icons on the desktop and to do everything else you start by clicking on "Start". I don't think I could come up with a better name for the button that serves as the starting point of almost any interaction. Nothing else comes to mind that will both communicate the button's purpose and simultaneously entice users who don't know what to do to click it.
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by blihp on Thursday October 24, 2019 @01:54PM (#21347245)
I think the intent of the name was for the millions of new computer users at the time to think 'start here' when their computer booted up. And besides, if they didn't call it Start their Windows 95 ad blitz with Rolling Stones music would have made no sense at all! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chTftktWmto)
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by baochan on Thursday October 24, 2019 @02:09PM (#21347389)
If I remember correctly, the very first time you ran Windows 95 a little animated text box saying "<-- Click Here!" would fly across the taskbar to draw you to it. Coming from Windows 3.11 with Program Manager, it was initially a little confusing. Where was everything?
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by kaetemi on Thursday October 24, 2019 @03:40PM (#21348416)
Yup, a little red airplane animation with a light yellow banner, on the taskbar, if I remember correctly. Didn't see it on all installations, though. Is it a specific version?
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by kyberias on Thursday October 24, 2019 @02:00PM (#21347313)
Just because you could Shut down thru Start-menu doesn't mean it was not meant to start things. That definitely has always been it's purpose.
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by ilkan on Thursday October 24, 2019 @02:00PM (#21347306)
I was troubleshooting WhatsApp over the phone for a relative work different hardware... Took me a bit of time to realize "solid triangle-ish" was wifi and "cup" was microphone. But for the Gen-Z and after, how would you intuitively represent Save and Call to people who've never seen a floppy disk or a phone handset?
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by antod on Thursday October 24, 2019 @02:14PM (#21347451)
Floppy disk, sure. But phone handset? Old movies and TV shows set in the past will keep that image alive like it did for us with knowing what phones looked like before our time. Unless you think movies/TV will go away too...
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by usrusr on Thursday October 24, 2019 @04:29PM (#21348821)
I agree that outdated symbols won't be a problem for younger generations, but for different reasons. The "save" icon has long stopped being a floppy disk. It may still look like one (to those who know the object depicted), but it is identified as just "save" and nothing more. If people would identify it with portable media instead of the act of storing the current document, they would also try to use it for loading a document. Nobody does that.

Old entertainment content however, I'm afraid that it might be pretty much lost to those growing up with on demand streaming. In the age of linear TV, back catalog content wasn't just available to consume in lieu of something new, it was actively fed to us by the fixed schedule on failure to tune in when the new stuff was aired. This introduced us to a lot of content from before our time. But with streaming, I just don't see how it would happen, not in culturally relevant volume. Nostalgia is an acquired taste. Just like so many of my generation I madly binged Friends when it appeared on Netflix, but how many streamed Friends who completely missed it's original run?

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by snakeboy on Thursday October 24, 2019 @06:38PM (#21349917)
> but how many streamed Friends who completely missed it's original run?

23 year old here. I had never seen Friends, thus I never had any nostalgic interest in visiting it.

One weekend last year I had an onsite interview in Denver just before a blizzard hit, snowing me into a Motel 6 for 2 days. No wifi, so I did nothing but watch Friends and Seinfeld reruns on the TV. Probably the first time I'd used a television in my adult life.

I also caught Forrest Gump for the first time late that night. Not a bad film.

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by labster on Thursday October 24, 2019 @07:17PM (#21350162)
Thank you for making half of us readers feel old and decrepit. Your work here is done.
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by jdofaz on Thursday October 24, 2019 @07:37PM (#21350285)
I Love Lucy had fans over generations thanks to reruns. I've mentioned the show a few times in conversations with people in their early 20s and usually they have never heard of it.
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by usrusr on Friday October 25, 2019 @05:19AM (#21353206)
I was starting to get uneasy about the problem that later gained prominence under the term "filter bubble" quite early. But the "now bubble" that is taking shape in this little discussion sidetrack? Totally did not see that one coming. We were not only wrong about mainstream news sources back in the 90ies, but also about mindless channel hoping: it can have horizon-widening qualities?

Anecdote time: I surely did not learn anything about the Korea war from MASH reruns other than "the time depicted is too recent for ww2 and too long ago for Vietnam, so apparently America had yet another war in Asia". But that was enough to create a gathering place inside my mind for all those tiny information scraps about this part of history that would otherwise new lost, surprisingly helpful.

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by hnick on Thursday October 24, 2019 @07:20PM (#21350180)
For save I've seen an arrow pointing into a folder (opposite of the typical 'open') or a computery-looking grey square with an arrow pointing downwards overlaid.
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by sorenjan on Thursday October 24, 2019 @08:24PM (#21350549)
The problem with the folder idea is that a lot of young people doesn't know how folders work. And nowadays a lot of files aren't saved to local storage, and even then, local storage is probably not a computer but a phone.

https://nullprogram.com/blog/2018/10/31/

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by Razengan on Friday October 25, 2019 @03:45AM (#21352756)
> Some people just haven't/won't learned the grammar and vocabulary of computer literacy.

Techie snobs scoff at the iPad but without its simplicity some of the older people in my family would have never used a computing device.

It wasn't something they ever needed – having done without computers for so long just fine – but it did bring them joy and entertainment and even helped them with some tasks, like notes and contacts.

And yes, abstracting away the file system played a big role in the iPad's accessibility.

Just vanishing the keyboard and mouse alone greatly lowers the intimidating barriers for some tech-averse people.

Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by Doubl on Thursday October 24, 2019 @06:20PM (#21349786)
I remember being called by someone to whom we'd sent a trial installation CD, this was in the days before remote desktop software. They didn't know how to insert a CD and were defensive with it Why can't you make it easy for normal people?
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by tigershark on Thursday October 24, 2019 @11:10PM (#21351501)
Probably because they didn’t have a cd-rom unit and they were trying to push it in the 3 1/2” disk drive. If they had a real floppy disk drive (5 1/4”) they probably would have succeeded, but I seriously doubt that the installation would have gone through smoothly...
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by Doubl on Friday October 25, 2019 @05:05AM (#21353143)
Lol!
Re:Where is Notepad in Windows 10? (2015) by giancarlostoro on Thursday October 24, 2019 @01:21PM (#21346841)
> Because it's just a little windows icon now - easy to forget that that doesn't just make sense to some people.

Not only this, but the icon style is different from when they last looked at it just different enough to probably confuse them.