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Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by onlyrealcuzzo on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:35PM (#21316318)
I'm a SWE at Google, and as much as I love unions, I'm not sure it makes sense for the software industry.

Further, the larger tech companies already have a concept of "levels" to ensure some sense of pay equality, we already get better benefits than you can get anywhere else in the states.

Realistically, what more will unions accomplish at a place like Google?

I'd love 6 weeks of paid vacation as much as anyone. I don't see us getting that. I'd love to make twice as much money. I don't see that happening. I'd love for promotions and hiring to be more fair / better, but I don't see how this accomplishes that (nor do I know anyway to improve it).

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by BeetleB on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:56PM (#21316561)
> I'd love 6 weeks of paid vacation as much as anyone. I don't see us getting that. I'd love to make twice as much money. I don't see that happening. I'd love for promotions and hiring to be more fair / better, but I don't see how this accomplishes that (nor do I know anyway to improve it).

Not at Google so I can't comment about them directly.

Also very neutral on unions, so don't take this comment as my preference.

6 weeks may seem hard to get, but many companies offer only 2 weeks, and 3 weeks seems the norm. 4 weeks seems doable with a union (although it may not be necessary - more and more companies are offering 4 weeks).

Non-compete clauses are something unions can help with (I know they're not allowed in CA, but lots of other states allow them).

The amount of time or how often one is on-call can be something unions can help with.

Conditions for severance can be something unions can help with.

On the flip side, unions can also make things a lot worse. YMMV.

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by cosmodisk on Monday October 21, 2019 @05:05PM (#21317346)
I'm in the UK. Currently have 25 days of paid holidays + 8 bank holidays. I believe this is a bare minimum one needs in order to maintain straight head and not go mad. I appreciate that's not something most people get across the pond, however I do see absolutely zero reasons,why this couldn't be the case over there as well. However,many heads had to roll and tons of blood was spilled in most European countries for these things to become a norm.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by souprock on Monday October 21, 2019 @05:08PM (#21317388)
Maybe the problem is job hopping. I got 5 weeks after being with the employer for a decade. I might be close to getting 6 weeks.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by ck425 on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:36PM (#21317017)
Many European countries have minimum holiday entitlements close to 6 weeks. The main reason they have them is historical trade union activism.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by danans on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:21PM (#21316851)
> we already get better benefits than you can get anywhere else in the states

I'm also a SWE at Google, and speaking only for myself, I might support efforts to ensure that those great benefits are harder to take away. Does that mean unionization ... I don't know, but there's a big spectrum of possible worker organization.

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by philipov on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:37PM (#21316334)
> I'm not sure it makes sense for the software industry.

Why not? Such a vague claim needs substantiation.

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by vowelless on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:42PM (#21316392)
It will likely stifle my salary, and the salaries of a lot of high earning swes.

Or not. Curious what others think.

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by tastythrowaway on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:58PM (#21316582)
One major thing stifling tech salaries in recent memory was the tech companies themselves:

https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage...

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by CydeWeys on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:48PM (#21316462)
Since when did unions stifle salaries? They generally get higher salaries for their employees, no? Isn't the typical complaint about union workers that they're "overpaid"?
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by joshuamorton on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:05PM (#21316673)
The common complaint is that since unions (at least in a lot of classic union jobs) force pay based on tenure, its difficult or impossible for bright people to succeed and change things.

And I'd agree that such a style of union would be antithetical to a company like Google, but its also not the only kind of union.

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by CydeWeys on Monday October 21, 2019 @09:18PM (#21319433)
Yeah, I just don't see a tech union functioning like that. There's no reason a union would have to enforce strict tenure requirements on salary, especially if most workers in the union don't want that.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by bduerst on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:26PM (#21316912)
>It will likely stifle my salary, and the salaries of a lot of high earning swes.

Yeah, this sounds like more anti-Union FUD than being based in actual data. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though if this can be substantiated through more than just cherry picked examples.

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by icelancer on Monday October 21, 2019 @06:05PM (#21317990)
> They generally get higher salaries for their employees, no?

Unions typically (almost always) bargain to improve the compensation of the average employee. Outlier events are flattened by definition, meaning it is harder to be fired, and harder to make outlier money.

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by CydeWeys on Monday October 21, 2019 @09:33PM (#21319517)
I don't think that's correct, but even if it were, it sounds like it'd be a good thing as it'd raise salaries for most developers. Surely we don't all think we're the exceptional ones, right? That's simply not possible.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by shantly on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:54PM (#21316523)
The usual counterexamples are sports player and actors' unions. Even in less glamorous areas, union doesn't always equal salary cap or salary bands or whatever. Usually their main concerns are setting a pay floor and stopping abuse / forcing humane treatment.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by nradov on Monday October 21, 2019 @05:06PM (#21317360)
SAG-AFTRA was notoriously silent for years during the #MeToo "casting couch" abuses. The union was apparently cozy with powerful entertainment industry players and did little to protect their members.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by icelancer on Monday October 21, 2019 @06:08PM (#21318023)
This is because the higher up members in SAG-AFTRA were complicit themselves. The management of the union are management themselves, which is what a lot of people seem to miss. Who watches the watchers?
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by Apocryphon on Monday October 21, 2019 @07:01PM (#21318509)
Not corporate management, that's for sure.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by icelancer on Monday October 21, 2019 @06:07PM (#21318010)
> sports player unions

Probably one of the worst examples. The MLBPA is currently the biggest joke regarding negotiating power, and the NFLPA settled a concussion lawsuit where the NFL is lying about player health and got away without admitting guilt about it.

Pro sports unions are inept at battling management and their members are suffering for it - in the case of football, literally dying for it without adequate compensation (if such a thing exists).

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by goatinaboat on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:58PM (#21317276)
It will likely stifle my salary, and the salaries of a lot of high earning swes.

Like it does in Hollywood? Oh no wait, everyone from the stars to the extras is in a Union!

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by memmcgee on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:51PM (#21316496)
Why would it though? In every other industry, union workers make much more than non-union workers. And unions don't seem to drag the salaries of other high earners (actors, screenwriters) down.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by icelancer on Monday October 21, 2019 @06:09PM (#21318035)
>> And unions don't seem to drag the salaries of other high earners (actors, screenwriters) down.

This absolutely happens in MLB/MLBPA. Players are not allowed to negotiate most types of incentive-based contracts that would align interests of management and players to give them higher possible pay, amongst other methods of capping pay to improve standards for average professional athletes.

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by UncleMeat on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:57PM (#21316564)
Pay is not the only thing.

There could be an employee elected board that is able to resolve things like disputes with managers. It's clear that there have been situations where HR is no help here. There could be agitation for greater transparency with perf, especially around things like promo quotas and ratings distributions.

Unions aren't just about pay.

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by occamrazor on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:28PM (#21316939)
How many vacation days have Google employees in Switzerland? The legal minimum is 4 weeks, the industry standard is 5 and many companies iffer 6 after a few years.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by sanguy on Monday October 21, 2019 @08:08PM (#21318996)
Let's not forget all the bridge days as well, which are over and above vacation days.

For those reading if a stat holiday falls on Tuesday or Thursday in Switzerland the Monday or Friday is a bridge day and also a holiday.

It gets fantastic when Thursday and Tuesday are holidays so you get a 6 day weekend.

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by kick on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:42PM (#21316389)
Eight days ago on Hacker News:

Yup. Happened to me. Big corporate decided most of our floor were surplus to requirements. Got an email on Sunday telling us to be in early on Monday for an off-site meeting.

Got handed my redundancy / compromise agreement and told not to return to the office. And, the kicker, told my non-compete meant I couldn't work for a competitor during the redundancy process.

It was devastating and emotionally wrecking. It was like being dumped, out of the blue, from a multi-year relationship. And being told you couldn't see anyone else. I went through all the classic stages of grief.

And then...

I contacted my Trade Union and explained the situation. They took a look at the contract I'd been given, passed it to a very expensive lawyer, who made a couple of phone calls.

The next week I was free to work for whoever I wanted and was paid ~7 months salary (tax free).

Join. A. Union.

Your employer has more lawyers than you do. Pay a couple of quid per month to have decent legal representation on hand when you need it.

That layoff was the best thing to happen to me. Shook me out of my cosy job, forced me into building my own consultancy, and taught me the power of solidarity.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21242176

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by tastythrowaway on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:52PM (#21316498)
thank you for posting this. it's a point worth realizing.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by kodablah on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:53PM (#21316518)
> That layoff was the best thing to happen to me. Shook me out of my cosy job, forced me into building my own consultancy, and taught me the power of solidarity.

This last part sounds like an argument against unions. One wonders, had the commenter worked in an environment where layoffs/firings aren't worth it due to externalities (and therefore never really happen), whether they'd rethink.

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by kick on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:00PM (#21316601)
That last part sounds like an argument for. If not for the benefits he got from the union, the very last claim wouldn't have happened, and the second to last claim might not have been possible.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by moate on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:02PM (#21316622)
Just trying to understand: you think that somehow unions make it EASIER to layoff/fire someone? That management would somehow assume it's easier/less costly to fire people when they know those people will have a lawyer review the terms of their termination? That management would be less inclined to attempt including illegal non-competes?
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by kodablah on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:09PM (#21316712)
No, sorry, I was too succinct. I am saying externalities like unions make it HARDER. Therefore the commenter might never have been laid off in a heavily unionized employment situation. Not arguing explicitly for or against, just mentioning that in situations where it is difficult to layoff/fire employees, it is not always a good thing (peer complacency, bloat, etc). Those that have worked in those situations often wish the protections were fewer, which is why I wondered if the commenter would rethink.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by moate on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @01:32PM (#21336860)
He worked for a company with a union, and was still fired. I still don't understand your point here. Yes, he says the layoff had benefits, but that seemed more like a "silver lining" than a "I'm glad things happened this way".

IDK, I'm either reading his statement or yours in a way someone isn't intending.

Also, people who work in non-union jobs often feel that peer complacency and bloat are problems. That's not unique to union shops. Everyone has had a job where there was "that guy" that nobody understood how he kept his job. IDK why people thing unions magically create this problem, or make it worse. Mostly because I haven't seen any studies proving it, it's just a "feeling" people have.

[dead]
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by Kalium on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:44PM (#21316415)
Wait until you find out how far the pay of those rich assholes goes when you spread it around!

There are good arguments to be made for unionization. That some people make more - sometimes substantially more - isn't always one of them. Certainly trying to stoke anger might not always be the best of all available ways to win over people trying to be thoughtful.

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by memmcgee on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:54PM (#21316530)
Executive salaries aren't the same thing as the surplus value extracted from your labor. If that was spread equally, each employee would make considerably more.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by icelancer on Monday October 21, 2019 @06:10PM (#21318046)
Surplus value extracted from labor is the literal definition of why you hire employees. If there wasn't surplus value, you wouldn't do it.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by SomeOtherThrow on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:05PM (#21316668)
> Wait until you find out how far the pay of those rich assholes goes when you spread it around!

Like by raising wages? How else would you spread it around?

> That some people make more - sometimes substantially more - isn't always one of them.

Read marx. Or chomsky.

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by Kalium on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:46PM (#21317137)
Yes, like raising wages. Big piles of money tend to turn into surprisingly small ones when spread out across big piles of people.

You'll have to pardon me if I'm reluctant to take my economics lessons from a linguist.

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by SomeOtherThrow on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:54PM (#21317223)
> You'll have to pardon me if I'm reluctant to take my economics lessons from a linguist.

Your loss, not mine!

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by UncleMeat on Monday October 21, 2019 @06:05PM (#21317989)
Google's annual profit is something like 100,000 dollars per employee. Not exactly a small pile.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by qaq on Monday October 21, 2019 @06:42PM (#21318354)
and RSUs of employees reflect that. start making that 100K into something smaller and your total comp will start to decrease.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by cameronbrown on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:53PM (#21317221)
This just smacks of jealousy. Maybe get some perspective and appreciate what you have, not what others have that you don't.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by SomeOldThrow on Tuesday October 22, 2019 @10:47AM (#21324190)
Hell yea I am jealous, have you met rich people? Do you realize how they live and how little they work and the absolutely shitty society that we have to live in to keep them rich? Of course I am jealous. How are you not? I see you also work for Google. Do you realize how much money Eric Schmidt makes off your labor while fucking women in some mansion? Do you realize how shitty the internet is for the sole purpose of selling ads? How shitty our phones are for the purpose of selling apps? Fuck appreciating that. Rich people ruin it for everyone.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by cameronbrown on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @04:58AM (#21332632)
Mate - I'm happy for what I have got: friends, family, I'm not homeless, a career, health,.. The things that really matter more than raw £ signs. I don't feel the need to compare myself to anyone at the top of my company - why do you feel the need to?
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by toomuchtodo on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:37PM (#21316329)
I'd ask only that you not impede those who do believe in more workplace protections and benefits while they get that work done (ideally locked in with labor law, along with strong unions). I'm sure a two day weekend and 40 hour work week was once thought of as impossible as well.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by Kalium on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:42PM (#21316400)
Live and let live, right?

Some people are leery about the possibility of their employer turning into a closed shop. I know I would not be happy if my employer suddenly turned into a union shop in a way that strongly affected me and gave me minimal choice in the matter.

I only ask that you consider why people might choose to sit on the sidelines.

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by toomuchtodo on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:45PM (#21316423)
Based on my experience, people sit on the sidelines because they're comfortable. People advocating for change should be polite first, and then not polite if politeness fails.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by AnimalMuppet on Monday October 21, 2019 @05:41PM (#21317763)
So you plan to force me into accepting your position if I don't take it when you ask nicely? I'd say you're already not polite.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by toomuchtodo on Monday October 21, 2019 @07:04PM (#21318542)
You already exist in a democratic system (assuming you're posting from the first world) where majority (mostly, some caveats) rules. This isn't any different. Everyone gets a vote, not everyone gets their way.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by AnimalMuppet on Monday October 21, 2019 @07:32PM (#21318754)
Not quite. I live in a republic. The majority wins elections but still don't get to totally trample on the minority, because we have a limited government.

Now, a union election isn't a government election, so that doesn't totally apply. But, for example, the majority has decided to pass legislation that makes my current state a right-to-work state, so a union can't require me to be a member, even if they win the election.

Of course, unions could campaign to change that law. But that's a different set of elections they'd have to win...

Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by Kalium on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:47PM (#21316458)
Is it at all possible, in any scenario, that people might have other reasons than purely personal comfort for sitting out a particular push for change?
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by toomuchtodo on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:48PM (#21316469)
It is possible, and I am receptive to enumeration of those reasons. One must be able to entertain both sides of an argument. Selfishly, it would help me strengthen my own argument.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by onlyrealcuzzo on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:41PM (#21316376)
I'm not impeding. And I could get behind it. I just don't see what realistically it can accomplish.
Re:Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Z... by ocdtrekkie on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:57PM (#21316578)
Those "levels" end up being oddly sexist at times. For instance, one of the women who sued Google for wage discrimination (Kelli Wisuri) was hired at L2, while male hires with similar or lesser experience were hired directly into L3 or above. And she and most of the women in her team were placed in a non-commission role, while working with men who gained commission on top of their salary.

Source, page 11 of https://googlegendercase.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Elli...