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Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by portillo on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @01:57PM (#21273310)
This is complete nonsense. There is not enough demand for all those satellites and capacity, so it's very hard to understand why they are making such a filing.

As of today, there is probably ~ 1 Tbps of usable capacity in space (wordlwide). With such a big constellation they could provide 100x this capacity, but who is going to buy it? How are they going to compete with fiber-delivered Internet in big cities? They cannot offer the same QoS, so you do not want space delivered Internet if you can have it through terrestrial networks.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by smachiz on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:12PM (#21273490)
I think you're making a lot of assumptions here.

First off, these constellations will (in theory) have fewer tradeoffs vs terrestrial networks.

At only 350-800 miles up, they are much lower latency than current satellite based Internet. These in theory add similar levels of latency as DOCSIS - and tolerable levels to most internet based applications.

It won't replace fiber for very latency sensitive applications - but being able to deliver a tremendous amount of bandwidth virtually anywhere with a penalty of only ~7-10ms is very compelling.

Secondly, in rural areas, everyone has a view of the sky. Very few have compelling fiber, or even cable/DSL options.

This could dramatically reduce the cost of backhaul services to ground based cellular stations - and improve connectivity in a variety of other ways.

If it's cheap enough.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by portillo on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:26PM (#21273683)
I don't think that latency is a decisive factor for most people / networks (as long as its below certain threshold). Most people will tell you it's a price-based decision.

On the other hand, roughly 85% of the population worldwide is already covered by 3G or 4G networks. I am not sure that space will be able to offer lower prices for backhaul if the infrastructure is already there. A fiber PoP / tower has much lower OPEX than launching, operating a constellation of satellites.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by xoa on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:45PM (#21273920)
>On the other hand, roughly 85% of the population worldwide is already covered by 3G or 4G networks.

First, and less importantly, source. Because phone companies love to toss out coverage numbers that are pure, unadulterated bullshit. But second that's less important because 3G and 4G are both completely uncompetitive for broadband. LTE is basically the minimum there. And awful data caps and congestion remain a serious issue all over the place.

>A fiber PoP / tower has much lower OPEX than launching, operating a constellation of satellites.

Is it? I mean, seriously. A lot of SpaceX's plans are based on estimated launch costs via Super Heavy, so necessarily somewhat speculative. But the target is sub-$100/kg, and at least in terms of fundamentals (like cost of fuel, Raptor effectiveness, estimated cadence) that doesn't look ridiculous. Each Starlink satellite apparently has a mass over around 230 kg. Add a bit of extra mass for some bigger sats in the mix, double the launch cost to be a bit more conservative, and we're still talking a launch cost per satellite of well under $60k a piece. They necessarily have everything needed to operate their design lifetime, because there is no maintenance that can be done on them. They're operating low enough that solar weather shouldn't be too constant a concern, and of course will never face OPEX costs like vegetation clearing or weather damage or corrosion or the like. Also doesn't face NIMBY tower politics either. Is it actually more expensive then running fiber and building/maintaining a tower? For very high density locations probably, but there's a pretty sizable population in the US alone for whom it seems on napkin math it could be very competitive.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by portillo on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:54PM (#21274024)
For the source, see [1]. "The coverage gap– those living outside of areas covered by mobile broadband networks4–continues to decrease below the 1 billion threshold and now stands at 750 million people. Since 2014 the gap has more than halved, from 24% to 10% of the global population." It's actually 90% covered by 3G and 4G.

Regarding the costs, I am not sure where your 60k/sat is coming form. Currently, launch costs for SpaceX are in the millions (60 commercially, let's say 30 millions cost), and they are launching 60 satellites at a time, so at least 500k/sat.

I am not sure that they will be able to cut the launch costs by a factor of 10, even considering resusability, larger launch capacity, etc, etc.

[1] https://www.gsma.com/mobilefordevelopment/wp-content/uploads...

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by caconym_ on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:21PM (#21274352)
It is completely clear where the 60k number is coming from. Whether you agree with it or not (he did qualify it as speculative) if you don't know where it came from then you must have replied to his post without actually reading it.
Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by portillo on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:34PM (#21274529)
You are right, maybe I should have said where the sub-100$/kg comes from.

In the first Starlink launch, with 60 satellites of ~230 kg each, the cost of launch was ~$30M (considering that the "retail price" of a Falcon 9 launch is $60M, I guess that half the cost if a good assumption). Thus, the cost per kg was $30M / (60 * 230 kg) ~ $2,000/kg. I just don't see how they are going to achieve a x10 reduction in cost, even considering reusability, larger masses, etc, etc.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by caconym_ on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:57PM (#21274791)
Yeah, I guess we'll see. Economies of scale and complete many-times reusability of both stages sound like plausible multipliers to me, but it's all speculation until the thing flies a few times and they get a mature production line up and running.
Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by smachiz on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:29PM (#21274455)
For rural coverage, fiber builds are _very_ expensive.

For cities, you're right - 5G + high frequency wavelengths is probably cheaper - but not by that much assuming SpaceX's numbers are accurate.

The problem is 85% of the population is absolutely not covered by high frequency spectrum - tower/DAS coverage is optimized for sub 1Ghz bands. We would need billions upon billions of additional tower builds to deliver an adequate experience on spectrum that basically requires line of sight. Even in cities. Some of that has been invested already (e.g. VZ can reuse their Fios plant in many locations), but certainly not everywhere.

Satellites may very well be more cost effective.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by ctdonath on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @04:04PM (#21274865)
roughly 85% of the population worldwide is already covered by 3G or 4G networks.

Consider the reverse.

As internet access becomes a staple service for modern living, one’s options for location are restricted to where internet is available: 3G coverage at a barely functional minimum.

Want to solve the housing crisis? poverty? Bring at least LTE performance (100Mbs better) everywhere at a competitive flat rate. Today, many options are untenable for want of a decent data rate.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by ctdonath on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:08PM (#21273453)
How do current ground wired customers like their internet provider? On the whole, they don’t.

What percentage of the world population has internet access of any kind? of land area? of anything over 1Mbps? Huge untapped markets there.

I see this building up like onset of digital photography: nobody expected supplanting film & paper, yet the whole world switched seemingly overnight. Kodak went from most valuable brand to “who?” fast.

Once people see Starlink working fast, reliably, and anywhere they’ll switch en masse. Personally, as a 100% telecommuter, the only thing stopping me from moving where I want is internet connectivity.

One billion customers divided by 40,000 Starlink satellites is a very manageable 25,000 users each. Sometime please run the numbers on supporting 100Mbps for each, plus latency. Given that, I expect a huge migration of customers.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by uoaei on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:13PM (#21273501)
Not enough demand? The 3 or 4 billion people without internet don't get to participate in the conversation?

Big cities could benefit if a lot of the load on existing networks shifts to Starlink. Better service for everyone.

Not everything is simply competition / winner-take-all in market economics, even if that's the tendency.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by marvin on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:19PM (#21273593)
Yep. This is the kind of "create new markets" move that seems to not make sense, but will be a spectacular success if it pans out. And no one else will be able to compete. There is only one company in the world that will be capable to economically launch 30,000 satellites in a single-digit number of years.
Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by portillo on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:22PM (#21273623)
Good luck making a business case with ARPUs of 3-4 USD / month from those people.

They have nothing to do in big cities, they cannot deliver the required data-rate density (bps/km2).

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by londons_explore on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @04:37PM (#21275274)
The higher altitude satellites are better for serving cities because the total bitrate gets averaged over more area - so you can have a hotspot of users in the city as long as there aren't many users in the surrounding ~600km circle.

Cities are spaced ~1200km apart in much of the world.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by portillo on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @07:41PM (#21277335)
Well, you are saying that you have a fixed bitrate per beam to divide among all the users in the area. The bigger the area the more users. And once you reach saturation, that's it. Also, if there is a very populate city inside the beam footprint, you are only going to be able to serve to a very limited amount of people in there.
Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by derekp7 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:20PM (#21273603)
Not to mention, that cell towers may be a lot cheaper to operate over Starlink.
Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by elsonrodriguez on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @04:48PM (#21275436)
Are you sure?

Keep in mind current cell phone coverage is spotty, with many unserved or underserved areas, and towns where Verizon is clearly better than AT&T, or vice versa.

Running that kind of cell tower network might be cheaper, but running a cell phone network that spans every inch of the globe would be an engineering and logistics feat that would almost be impossible to profit off of.

Even maintenance-wise, servicing a cell tower requires keeping a bunch of contractors around to drive to drive, fly, or even boat to remote areas, and climb a hundred feet once they get there. With starlink, they can just piggyback replacement satellites on customer payloads.

Also, there are around 4 million cell towers in the world to achieve spotty coverage, whereas starlink is targeting 40k satellites for global coverage. I'd have to believe that launching 40,000 similar payloads via similar methods has huge vertical integration advantages over the extremely heterogeneous approaches we use to put up those millions of towers.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by derekp7 on Friday October 18, 2019 @01:34PM (#21293363)
Sorry, I think I was misunderstood. Cell towers that work over starlink (i.e., use starlink as an uplink method) may be cheaper than cell towers that use a landline for an uplink.

So the ideal situation would be Starlink for remote areas, and in medium to higher density areas put up towers that talk to Starlink, then can speak to local receivers using terrestrial radio technologies.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by ctdonath on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:37PM (#21273844)
Their cost though is limited range/coverage and very limited non-mobile data plans.

I want 100Mbps 1TB/mo anywhere.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by tw04 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:25PM (#21273670)
>How are they going to compete with fiber-delivered Internet in big cities?

Who is this mystery company building fiber-delivered internet in big cities? You must not be talking about the US, because:

#Google

#CenturyLink

#Verizon

Were the major players building out, and all have stopped. That's ignoring the tens of millions of people who don't live in the city and have 3Mbps DSL as their best case scenario. And that's ignoring the mess in Australia and Canada. There will be PLENTY of demand for high speed, low latency satellite.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by portillo on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:44PM (#21273907)
I am not talking fiber to the home, I am talking a fiber backed infrastructure, like cell towers and such.

If the solution was to provide Internet wirelessly, we would have that right now. The cell phone infrastructure provides much higher data-densities than any satellite network will ever be able to provide.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by tw04 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:57PM (#21274053)
I'm not following your point. The whole reason Starlink is being launched is for home broadband. Every cell provider in existence has ridiculously low caps - starlink is supposed to be uncapped. You're the guy telling someone he doesn't need a dump truck for his landscape business because we have public buses.
Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by portillo on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:14PM (#21274246)
You could provide home broadband using a wireless, mobile-network like system if you wanted to.

It is not happening because it's very difficult to do that with the spectrum allocated for mobile services. A network of towers can provide higher capacity densities than what SpaceX's 30k satellite systems will be able to.

In big cities, they will fall very sort of the capacity required. The current 4,409 satellite proposal has beams of ~700 Mbps, and each of those covers a surface larger than the whole NYC metropolitan area. The capacity scales linearly with the number of satellites in line-of-sight (LoS). Right now, with the 4,409 satellite system you can have ~40 satellites in LoS, so they can provide ~28 Gbps of throughput to the whole city. Even with 30k satellites, they will only be able to provide ~196 Gbps. That is not enough to offer any uncapped data plan.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by tw04 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:28PM (#21274440)
> You could provide home broadband using a wireless, mobile-network like system if you wanted to.

Why do you continue referencing one of the most densely populated cities in the world as the unit of measure? This is for un-served and under-served areas which is half the globe. Of course they aren't building this to displace NYC's current ISPs. They clearly ran financials before investing... you seem like you're just trying to find a reason to say it's stupid without bothering to consider that someone smarter than you MIGHT have done a little research before spending a couple billion dollars.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by portillo on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @07:53PM (#21277449)
My PhD research is on how to use space and aerial networks to serve the unconnected and undeserved. I have been studying these networks (and things like Google's loon, mmwave, etc) for the last 4 years. I have simulated these networks in detail, assessed their capabilities, and ran a lot of financials myself.

According to my analyses, there needs to be a disruptive change in how we receive broadband Internet to close the business case (that's why I keep talking about Displacing ISPs). The unconnected and undeserved broadband market plays great in the US and Canada, but in the rest of the world, there is simply not such a market. At best, you are going to try to provide backhauk for a cell phone network or some other kind of access point. The whole 3B of unconnected people rethoric is very slim. Those people can afford to pay very little every month for connectivity, so it's very hard to make money out of it (even to offset your marginal costs).

In terms of performance, there are diminishing returns on each extra satellite that you launch. The ones already up there are already satisfying a lot of the demand, so each newly launched satellite is active for a shorter and shorter percentage of time.

Starlink is a (in my opinion) very oversized system. I do not think they will launch the full 4,409 constellation (as it stands today), and I am pretty confident they will not launch a 30,000 satellite constellation.

Finally, LEO networks are not the most cost effective space networks. GEO HTS and MEO networks have lower CAPEX/GB.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by cholmon on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:09PM (#21273460)
~45% of the world's population lives in rural areas. That's a lot of potential customers, myself included; I live 30 minutes north of a US state capitol, and my only option for terrestrial internet at home is 1.5mbps DSL (which I currently pay $70/mo for), or my cell carrier (which is spotty and unreliable in my house), so I'd definitely consider SpaceX Internet.
Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by borkt on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:21PM (#21273619)
I live 60 miles from san francisco and can't even get DSL - Satellite and cell only, cell is no service 40% of the time, 1 bar 60%
Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by nikanj on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:00PM (#21273365)
Supply creates demand. Rural areas in the US and Canada get no fiber
Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by wlesieutre on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:15PM (#21273536)
Even developed areas in the US typically are stuck with one broadband provider. If you do have a second one, everywhere I've lived it's been DSL service and I've never heard anything good about it aside from being cheaper than Comcast.
Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by portillo on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:46PM (#21273935)
Exactly, that is the real problem, the lack of competition from terrestrial networks. In the US the ISPs operate as a monopoly. In most big cities in Europe you have 3/4 providers to choose from, which reduces costs and increases the quality of service.
Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by SupersonicScrub on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:06PM (#21273438)
Not to mention the massive populations living in underdeveloped areas in Africa.
Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by dvdbloc on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:14PM (#21273514)
Not to mention the populations in Urban America that simply don’t have access to fiber.
Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by the8472 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:12PM (#21273491)
They deliver better latency than current sat-based internet. They also want to use fixed phase array antennas instead of large dishes or tracking dishes. This is a new kind of service that has not existed before.
Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by portillo on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:47PM (#21273940)
Yeah, we will see the price of those phase array antennas.
Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by londons_explore on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @04:40PM (#21275320)
DSL modems are a similar technology leap - they used to contain high end FPGA's, DSP chips, and high speed analogue to digital converters, and they'd cost hundreds of dollars.

Now a cheap DSL modem is $10, and it's all a single SoC.

Phased array satellite modems will follow the same price curve.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by portillo on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @07:57PM (#21277478)
I hope that ends up happening, it will be a bigger innovation than all these constellations!!

I don't think it will happen in the next 3 years though. I think that most of the manufacturers are focusing on the high-end market, and first terminals will be in the thousands of dolars.

Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by londons_explore on Thursday October 17, 2019 @10:17AM (#21282293)
I think it will happen, because phased array systems are being developed for 5G, next-gen WiFi, etc. Lots of players in the ASIC design game are designing similar hardware, and in the volumes spacex presumably wants to order, I think they'd be totally happy to spin a chip putting together a few hundred phase shifters and amplifiers in-front of a regular DSL modem SoC.
Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by bluedino on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:21PM (#21273611)
Even if we have ~1Tbps total satellite network capacity, what kind of bandwidth can one user on the ground have to themselves?
Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by uoaei on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:15PM (#21273535)
Another point which may be missing from the analysis: if I were Musk and I wanted 3000 satellites in orbit I'd probably also make a filing for 10x that and see how much I can get / how much I will need to meet demand.
Re:SpaceX just filed a request to run 30k more Starlink sate... by rhacker on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:08PM (#21273455)
Well the current providers that supposedly own that bandwidth are not willing to give anyone unlimited plans unless it's after 6pm and before 6am.

Beyond that they want to charge like it's a cell phone.