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Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by LessDmesg on Saturday October 12, 2019 @08:40AM (#21232575)
Nah, the "environment movement" as you call it is obviously funded by the governments looking for an excuse to raise taxes. It's the governments giving away grant money to fund the "scientific consensus" (another ridiculous term).

Meanwhile, this has nothing to do with "saving the world", only with the sovereign debt crisis. United States, EU and Japan are dead broke, they will try every ploy to raise taxes and steal from the "evil rich people", even if it means ending the Western Civilization.

Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by radikal_shit on Saturday October 12, 2019 @08:54AM (#21232665)
What's ridiculous about a scientific consensus? It's a trend in the publication of scientific facts. Show me a better way of unearthing what the data is showing than extrapolating from publications of hundreds of independent research. Especially when you follow it with a steam of unfounded speculations.
Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by GarrisonPrime on Saturday October 12, 2019 @10:00AM (#21233154)
The problem comes when people forget scientific consensus isn’t set in stone. Science is a continuous process of discovery and refinements, not a final declaration. Especially when so many studies are flawed, or their results cannot be reproduced.

But the public at large, politicians, and most business interest desire the comfort of facts, so people have a tendency to want to believe things are more settled and concrete than they may actually be.

I am grateful, by contrast, that my med school professors frequently declared “ten years from now, perhaps half of what we’re teaching you today will have been proven incorrect”. While half is an exaggeration, I’ve certainly been astonished at how much has changed so dramatically in such a short time.

Of course we just have to do the best we can with what we know at any particular time. So if the climate consensus is pointing one way, by all means let’s follow the bread crumbs. But overconfidence can be a dangerous comfort.

Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by LessDmesg on Saturday October 12, 2019 @09:04AM (#21232748)
Science is not determined by consensus. It's determined by fact. If 100% of scientists paid for by a government declare what the government wants to hear as "fact", it does not become fact. Especially if it's based on arbitrary models that have been shown wrong. In the 1970s the "scientific consensus" was about global cooling, now it's about global warming, and Al Gore promised that Manhattan would be submerged underwater by now. The truth is, there is no model proven to be accurate in predicting the Earth's climate even over a timeframe of 50 years.
Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by ocschwar on Saturday October 12, 2019 @09:01PM (#21237513)
So why have the government's scientists not changed their tune in 2016? Why were the saying the same things during the Bush years that they said during the Obama years?
Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by neffy on Saturday October 12, 2019 @08:51AM (#21232643)
If a group of people is allowed to consistently get away with not paying their taxes, then fairly quickly, just by the operation of the monetary system, they will be the only people with any money.

The real question is, are these really the people you want in control?

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Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by neffy on Saturday October 12, 2019 @11:12AM (#21233747)
You think the Chinese banking system doesn´t have these issues as well?

They introduced loan securitization a few years ago, and their system does not have anywhere close to the flexibility or tolerance for dissent they are going to need to deal with the issues that is creating for them.

Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by AJ007 on Saturday October 12, 2019 @09:17AM (#21232851)
Yes they can, it’s called inflating away the debt - presuming it isn’t debt issued in a foreign currency.
Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by wincy on Saturday October 12, 2019 @09:21AM (#21232879)
I’d rather no one be threatened with prison for not paying taxes. I don’t think the state (or anyone else) should be able to throw you in prison because you haven’t paid up. It’s just the modern day threat of debtors prison.
Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by DFHippie on Saturday October 12, 2019 @09:42AM (#21233039)
How many people are actually in prison for refusing to pay taxes? How does this compare to the number of people who have suffered some penalty for refusing to pay taxes? What should be done about people who Bartleby the Scrivener their way out of a legal obligation?
Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by huffmsa on Saturday October 12, 2019 @09:12AM (#21232803)
No, the real question is why do you think that "the government" is entitled to a percentage of your money, and why you think they can spend it better than the private sector.
Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by neffy on Saturday October 12, 2019 @11:07AM (#21233710)
Well I´ve worked in the private sector most of my life, and I have observed it to be well staffed with human beings.

And human beings, in my experience, can be lazy, venal, honourable or hardworking, in both the private and the government sector. But the last time I checked, the private sector only cared about the people with money, whereas the government is required to care about everybody.

Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by huffmsa on Saturday October 12, 2019 @11:58AM (#21234119)
But that means the private sector only has to focus on what makes them money,and they must do it well, or else they go away.
Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by ykevinator on Saturday October 12, 2019 @09:18AM (#21232856)
Because they pay for sewage and libraries
Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by GarrisonPrime on Saturday October 12, 2019 @09:52AM (#21233103)
Much less efficiently than the private sector could.
Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by huffmsa on Saturday October 12, 2019 @09:23AM (#21232905)
Unless you pay a private firm to drill a well and put a septic tank in the ground.

Cost a few thousand dollars, and a few hundred every few years to have them come and pump the tank.

I pay Amazon ~$10 a month for access to more reading, listening and video content than most major university libraries have access too.

No late fees either.

Of course sewage is better handled at the municipality level in dense areas, and I'm not okay with private firms having control over access to information, but Federal level governments are highly inefficient.

Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by michaelmrose on Saturday October 12, 2019 @11:50AM (#21234056)
Anyone who thinks Amazon is a fit replacement for libraries hasn't thought the matter through much.

If one has 12-48k to pay rent this year a few hundred for a machine, about 1k for internet access then one can pay 10 a month to access a worse collection a homeless man could check out at the library.

Access to the rest of human knowledge is available for 10 to 100 a pop.

Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by huffmsa on Saturday October 12, 2019 @12:08PM (#21234185)
A cellphone, a cheap data plan + prime will run you ~$500 at the most.

Or ~$1.50 a day. And you get the rest of the internets knowledge included.

No hours of operation, no librarians giving you dirty looks

Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by imtringued on Saturday October 12, 2019 @03:21PM (#21235550)
>governments looking for an excuse to raise taxes.

In Germany energy taxes + VAT make up more than 50% of the price of gasoline and this has been the case for decades. If we switch to 100% electric cars then the government will lose 10% of its tax income. This is a strong motivation to avoid transportation policies that are good for the environment.

Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by kgwgk on Saturday October 12, 2019 @03:56PM (#21235771)
> If we switch to 100% electric cars then the government will lose 10% of its tax income.

The government can tax whatever it wants, there is no reason why electric cars couldn’t generate the same tax receipts.

Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by erpellan on Saturday October 12, 2019 @08:51AM (#21232647)
Yes, NASA was funded to collect the actual data until Trump arrived. The facts don’t care if you don’t like them and they don’t go away if you cover your eyes like a child and pretend they’re not there.
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Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by gerbilly on Saturday October 12, 2019 @09:36AM (#21232995)
> The facts are that nobody knows how climate works

No the facts appear to be that you don't know how climate works.

Why are you so passionate about this issue, what's in it for you anyway?

Do you stand to make millions off of oil and gas? If not, why are you arguing for the side that wants to let the world burn?

Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by katbyte on Saturday October 12, 2019 @09:06AM (#21232759)
Oddly I think it’s you who have fallen pray to propaganda.

(Ps calling her mentally ill when she is clearly not does nothing for your position)

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Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by ocschwar on Saturday October 12, 2019 @12:50PM (#21234499)
Do you know just how many users here are also tagged with the scarlet 'A'?
Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by playing_colours on Saturday October 12, 2019 @10:04AM (#21233186)
I like what Eric Weinstein said about climate change:

The fact that we do not have much historical data and good verifiable models to understand how the planet climate behaves under large changes in parameters (CO2 emission, etc.) makes it even more important and urgent to act. We never know at what moment the system will cross the threshold, and damage becomes irreversible, and planet destruction accelerates.

Re:The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) by kaybe on Saturday October 12, 2019 @09:55AM (#21233121)
Have a look yourself in a model created from physical principles:

https://www.mi.uni-hamburg.de/en/arbeitsgruppen/theoretische...

(Expect a stationary state to take at least 50 years to run after starting or disturbance (such as changing incoming radiation or CO2) since the ocean model is a mixed layer and takes a while to equilibrate. In the real world the ocean mixing time is ~1000 years though.)